Medical validity for over age 40 flight instructors

[Big Pistons Forever]

So the new CAR 404 says your Class 1 medical is valid for 12 months except

(6.1) The validity period of a medical certificate for a commercial pilot licence, a multi-crew pilot licence — aeroplane and an airline transport pilot licence, if the holder of the licence is acting as a flight crew member for hire or reward, is 12 months.
(6.2) However, the validity period of a medical certificate referred to in subsection (6.1) is reduced to 6 months if
(a) the holder of the licence is 40 years of age or older and is conducting a single-pilot operation with passengers on board; or

So I took this to mean that since students are not "passengers" that means para 6.2(a) does not apply and my medical is valid for 12 months and therefore allows me to conduct flight training for any license or rating during that 12 Month period.

I am now hearing that TC wants over 40 instructors to do 6 months medicals. Has anybody seen any written direction on this ?

[Pop n Fresh]

Is the student ready to solo when I suffer a debilitating bout of "old" or "middle age" during the flight?

[PilotDAR]

Yeah, I gotta believe that TC thinks that for the first couple of training hours, a student is a passenger. Just my opinion.....

[Big Pistons Forever]

Yeah, I gotta believe that TC thinks that for the first couple of training hours, a student is a passenger. Just my opinion.....

Rules are supposed to be evidence based and reflect a risk assessment. AFAIK there has never been a fatal ab initio flight training accident where the cause was medical incapacitation of the instructor. After the first 2 flights or so any student should be able to declare the emergency and survive the landing.

Furthermore there are lots of cases where pilots have dropped dead weeks or even days after they passed the medical.

So I should have to do another medical every year because of the basically never before happened possibility that I am flying with a student on his/her first 2 flights and it has been more than 6 months but less than one year since my last medical and I drop dead with something that would have been found at that 6 month medical

[RonReynolds]

I am now hearing that TC wants over 40 instructors to do 6 months medicals. Has anybody seen any written direction on this ?

Nothing in writing that I've seen yet, but I was speaking to a TC inspector about this last week. He did not comment on if the regulation change included instructors but he did say that they were discussing it and he suggested that they would provide some direction. My understanding it was expected that we would have a 12 month validity period. (ie. 6.2a not applicable)

all pretty vague granted but its good to know they are discussing it. Hopefully they will put something in writing soon.

Additionally FWIW I didn't see that change to be applicable to Flight Instructors hence the discussion with TC

[Big Pistons Forever]

Ron

Thanks for the update.

[PilotDAR]

After the first 2 flights or so any student should be able to declare the emergency and survive the landing.

.... any BPF student...., they're not all the same!

[Pop n Fresh]

Pay attention. I'm well over 23 and could croak at any second. Then you will have to get back and land unassisted. In such an unlikely event you may have to use the secret pedals I was saving for "advanced training" I only teach this to students I like.

[Aviatard]

I am now hearing that TC wants over 40 instructors to do 6 months medicals. Has anybody seen any written direction on this ?

Written? No. But the verbal direction I received on this from TC Toronto is that students are not passengers and therefore the 12 month rule applies. However you cannot do a sightseeing flight, because that would require a 6 month medical.

BTW it's 40 and over, not over 40.

[photofly]

I wonder if they'd apply the same approach to night currency and teaching at night, regarding whether the student is a passenger or not.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I wonder if they'd apply the same approach to night currency and teaching at night, regarding whether the student is a passenger or not.

Why should it matter if it was day or night ?

[photofly]

Oh... five takeoffs and landings at night in the previous six months to carry passengers at night. After a long summer of no night flying, if a student is considered a passenger you'd need to regain currency before instructing at night.

[Gene Hasenfus]

the student is a passenger

Someone's bluffing on a busted flush.

Hard to take that kind of nonsense seriously.

[girouxc]

I understand you say that when student pilot with his student permit in hand may not be a passenger, before having his student permit, is he?

[Gene Hasenfus]

Has nothing to do with whether or not the
student pilot has an SPP issued.

See the definitions of "crew member" and
"passenger" in CAR 101. There is no wiggle
room here, only nonsense.

A student pilot is a "crew member" when
logging dual from a flight instructor. A
"crew member" is not a "passenger". This
cannot be argued. Significantly, TC has
never laid a charge in this respect, hoping
that no one calls their bluff.

Similarly, TC might tell flight instructors
that they must always wear blue shirts.
Similarly, that is nonsense which is not
supported by any enacted legislation or
applicable precedent. I wait patiently for
TC to lay a charge against a flight instructor
for not wearing a blue shirt. They never
will, because it is not a contravention,
merely a bluff.

[PilotDAR]

If a first time student were not to be considered a "passenger" for the purposes of licensing requirements for the other pilot, then they must be a crew member;

“crew member” means a person assigned to duty in an aircraft during flight time;

On the first flight, I suppose that duty would be to watch, and hold the controls for a while. They're a crew member - fair enough.

If a flight in a single pilot aircraft is carrying a pilot and a "crew member", and the pilot is being paid for that flight, I can't see how that flight is not a commercial flight, and thus requires the pilot to be licensed as "commercial" for that flight.

[Gene Hasenfus]

When I go flying today, I will wear
a green shirt, in honour of my Irish
heritage. We shall see if a charge is
laid in respect of this.

PS Never understood the whole kerfuffle
about the night currency thing. I can get
night current in 4000 feet of runway in
less than 60 seconds. So can you.

[Big Pistons Forever]

If a flight in a single pilot aircraft is carrying a pilot and a "crew member", and the pilot is being paid for that flight, I can't see how that flight is not a commercial flight, and thus requires the pilot to be licensed as "commercial" for that flight.

.

The issue is not whether or not the flight is a commercial flight as flying instructing is obviously a commercial flight; the issue is whether under the CAR's it is a single pilot commercial flight or a 2 crew flight. This distinction drives the requirement for medical valid dates. All commercial flights only require a 12 month medical, except for those that are flown single pilot and carrying passengers.

TC makes a distinction between passengers, that is people who are just along for the ride, and crew. Passengers just want to travel from A to B and are not participating in the operation of the aircraft in any way. Students however are obviously participating in the operation of the aircraft and are clearly much more invested in the flight than somebody reading their book in the back seat.

To me it seems logical that flight instruction is not single pilot and the 12 Month medical validity should apply. It would be nice if TC were to put that in writing somewhere.

[RonReynolds]

To me it seems logical that flight instruction is not single pilot and the 12 Month medical validity should apply. It would be nice if TC were to put that in writing somewhere.

I did get further information on this issue from TC today, the inspector I spoke to told me that they have been given direction from HQ,, Your position is correct, flight instructors with students are NOT considered to be operating as a single pilot with a passenger, and therefore 6.2 would not be applicable... well almost......
However it would be if conducting sight see flights and if carrying more than one student on board the aircraft. (observer) then the +40 MC would only be valid for the 6 months.

I suspect that might include Fam flights as well. I suppose that if they are enrolled in a program then not, but if they are just kicking tires then likely.... ??

So if you limit yourself to flights with a single student occupant, then your MC would be valid for 12 months, otherwise 6 months.

There is a written document that was read in part to me, and I've asked if I can have a copy, or other written communication that I can have..... they are checking, I'll advise/post it when I get it...

[B52]

What's the bet that this triggers an update to the CARS?

Over 40 also means over any other large number so
I don't see any escape from 6 month medicals in the long run.

TC and the FAA miss lots of opportunities that medicals provide.

[Big Pistons Forever]

TC and the FAA miss lots of opportunities that medicals provide.

Like what ?

[photofly]

I suspect that might include Fam flights as well. I suppose that if they are enrolled in a program then not, but if they are just kicking tires then likely.... ??

It makes no sense to me that someone studying exercise 1 (and being granted flight training credit for it, too) is a passenger, but doing exercises 2-24 makes them a crew member.

[Aviatard]

I suspect that might include Fam flights as well. I suppose that if they are enrolled in a program then not, but if they are just kicking tires then likely.... ??

It makes no sense to me that someone studying exercise 1 (and being granted flight training credit for it, too) is a passenger, but doing exercises 2-24 makes them a crew member.

Logic says that if you can put it in a PTR then you're a student and not a passenger. On second thought, sorry to bring logic into a discussion of CARs.

[robshelle]

Sorry to be bringing up an old thread. Last fall I returned to flight instructing part time after a 22 year hiatus changing careers to ATC, and just have a couple questions about this topic. I know my CFI and the TC flight test examiner who renewed my Class 2 both stated that my medical is good for 12 months due to being over 40, and CARS does appear to support this. However, does anyone have any link to written confirmation that students right from the fam flight on are considered Flight crew? I have been looking and cannot find anything other than this thread. Also, I just want to confirm that assuming I am on months 6-12 of my medical that I can not do sight seeing flights for hire or reward.

Robshelle

[praveen4143]

My understanding is that if you are providing instruction, then it should be considered a dual instructional flight. If that person is coming along for an "aerial tour" under CAR 406, then they are a passenger.