Hi all,

As a somewhat novice floatplane pilot working in the North, just wondering what your guys' limits when it comes to wind and waves. My time is split fairly evenly between flying on the Ocean, and the rest mainly on lakes on the Canadian Shield. From my couple hundred hours on floats, I start to feel uncomfortable with anything more than gusting 20 kts, and 2-3 foot waves. For reference I'm flying 180s and 185s. At what point would some of you high-timed guys say things are no longer "safe"?


Thanks for your time.

Sounds about right for the 180/185.. I won't take much more than that myself in the cessna. 3ft waves are pretty substantial in it.

Depends on what type of floats you are running and how you are loaded too. If your running CAP 3000's then you can handle rougher water, EDO 2960's far less.
I'd say 2-3 foot is the max, it really beats the heck out of your machine and occupants, it also can really send you for a ride if you hit one wrong at speed. Water is the ever-changing runway, 2-3 foot one day does not mean the same 2-3 foot wave action another day. I once landed on Okanagan lake (known for some big swells) and did a half an hour taxi because there was only one "Bay" with "calm'ish" water near my destination.

I typically wont take off or land in more than 2' if I don't have to, that beats up the old girl enough.

SeanMountainous wrote:Hi all,

As a somewhat novice floatplane pilot working in the North, just wondering what your guys' limits when it comes to wind and waves. My time is split fairly evenly between flying on the Ocean, and the rest mainly on lakes on the Canadian Shield. From my couple hundred hours on floats, I start to feel uncomfortable with anything more than gusting 20 kts, and 2-3 foot waves. For reference I'm flying 180s and 185s. At what point would some of you high-timed guys say things are no longer "safe"?


Thanks for your time.

I used to fly into a long narrow little bay in the Canadian Shield with a 185. A couple of times I had to do my take-off run with the rudders down just to keep it straight and not run into the rocks. I'm thinking it was about 20 gusting to 25 knots or so hard to say. It was too much and done too many times would likely lead to ruin...

Ok, thanks you guys for your thoughts. Much appreciated!



Sean

And, if you're getting pushed to go, a comment to the effect that "well, it' s your maintenance bill..." should do the trick. If it doesn't, then a polite "no" will. Remember, it's your a$$ in the seat if things go sideways...
Sounds like you've figured out your limits, though..

Stay safe!

3 ft waves in a 180? And you have ocean flying as well. I don't know if I would even fly a twin otter in those conditions. But hey, I'm still alive and never hurt a plane. I'm pretty sure a 3 ft wave is going to eat your prop up pretty good, even in a beaver.

The worst I ever did was in a Beaver ONCE in winds pushing 40 or 50 kts. 2-3 ft waves. Hit the second wave, was scared, chopped the power until I realized I was airborne, power up, head her home. double scotch on landing

I think a lot of people overestimate wave height. Three foot high waves (hip high!) would break a 185 pretty quickly.

Maybe he meant 3 feet from peak to trough.

3'?

That half my height.

I wouldn't do it in my 185.

I've flown a PZL Otter in 4 foot waves. Nasty even with the big bird. However, I was MT taking off and airborne on the second wave. One of the tourists (who didn't vomit while I was backing up to the dock) got the takeoff on video. I wish I could get a copy of that. Things I don't want to do twice.

My limit for my 185 on wip 3730s is 18-20" trough to crest....max 20 kts gusting
I find it hard enough turning out of wind at that wind speed.
Note: My private airplane..MY MAINTENANCE...A new engine mount and bushings installed =12000.00-13000.00

How does one measure wave height from the air, and how accurate do you think your measurement is?

As some of you have already surmised, I probably am overestimating the wave height. What I've assumed was 2-3 feet probably was not. Can't say I've ever really scared myself in large waves and I tend towards being overly cautious, so you guys must be correct.

Cat Driver wrote:How does one measure wave height from the air, and how accurate do you think your measurement is?

Very True. I would never have landed at Sabourin Lake that day with the 4 foot waves had I known how big they were. Lucky for me (and the plane) that they were close together so I slowed down a lot before coming off the step and slamming into them. Backing into the dock was a challenge. Staying on the dock with those waves would have been very bad however so I took off for a better harbour

White caps are a good indication of a potentially brutal arrival.

I like to "hit" them with a 30 degree angle. Things get much smoother. We're talking about waves here, not swell, which is a different story.

As Cat is pointing out above, the one who can measure the wave height from the air is not born yet.

And yes indeed, like 1000hp said, there might be times when you'll have to move the plane to a better harbour. Planes tangled all over the docks have been seen some bad mornings, in Labrador for instance. They all jumped on the docks over the night, no kidding.

Hence the moorings and the boats, even if you don't enjoy getting wet and nearly drown in a boat during a storm after a long day...BUT...this is bush flying!

RB

Politics run aviation and in the old days, DeHav pulled Ottawa's strings(Had Saunders, a way better airplane, shut down...etc...)
So they thought they take Canadair down, at it was down at the heel at the time and steal the water bomber business.

Spain was up to buy water bombers, so Canadair and DeHav went head to head in a demo. What a joke...Canadair can and will scoop
in the open ocean in ten feet waves, while the poor twotter need to find sheltered water not to fall apart. Needless to say
Canadair got the business and Twotter water bombers are nowhere to be found these days.

So Pierre Trou D'eau had to get his ass in third world countries and pass around twots like they were hot cakes.(They all ended up
rotting in jungle strips, these bunnies cannot afford to put gas in busses, never mind airplanes...) All this paid by Canadian sucker tax payers...

Actually, I'm in Borneo and 3 of the Twotters flew over me today. (Or one 3 times). Susi Air operates a bunch of them.

[youtube][/youtube] hey 1,000, boats in the water ready to sail,I'm just around the corner and the beer can not possibly get colder,come on around

Hey Zeppelin, this might just be the year I've got December off but am busy Scuba Diving around Victoria, but I've got February and April off as well. Which is the better month?

Canadair can and will scoop
in the open ocean in ten feet waves,

Really?

Cat Driver wrote:

Canadair can and will scoop
in the open ocean in ten feet waves,

Really?

+1

1000 HP wrote:

Cat Driver wrote:How does one measure wave height from the air, and how accurate do you think your measurement is?

Very True. I would never have landed at Sabourin Lake that day with the 4 foot waves had I known how big they were. Lucky for me (and the plane) that they were close together so I slowed down a lot before coming off the step and slamming into them. Backing into the dock was a challenge. Staying on the dock with those waves would have been very bad however so I took off for a better harbour

I call BS. Sabourin doesn't have the distances to put up 4 foot rollers in a big wind, even if it's out of the southeast. And it has two very conveniently located islands when it is rough and you're a super keener to land there.

A 1.5 foot wave is surfable with the right beach. A 2 foot wave quickly appears to be a 4 foot wave to most inland sailors and perfessional pile-its.

If you look down or out onto the water and it looks like a dumb idea to ride into the waves at 80 mph on a Jet-ski in your boardshorts, it's no smarter to try it with a set of floats. Trust your "This doesn't look like a good idea" meter as you gain confidence and come up with clever ideas. If you think you should ask if it's too rough to go, you have a great opportunity to save face while you save your breath.

Sabourin definitely has enough room to put up the big waves in 25 to 40 knot winds as were the conditions that day. It's 1.5 nm of water with a southwest wind. It's also a fairly shallow lake. The island is only 500' wide (the long way) and I have swam out to it many a time from the dock. The island in that kind of wind is only 400' wide and definitely not a choice for a lee landing as the wind wraps around from both sides. Thus, there is no lee. Plus, unless you are a flying god or have a deathwish, coming in over 60' of trees and landing in towards an island about a kilometer from shore in very gustly conditions is just asking to be parked on that island. The shallow rocks start about 100' out from the island.

I will admit I did not use a yardstick to measure the waves and perhaps the waves were only 2 feet

In Little Grand, the waves have exceeded 4' at times and once, sunk one of my airplanes at the dock when a storm came up quickly. I refused to fly an Indian Affairs guy across to the reserve 3/4 of a mile away once in 4 footers. I took him in the 18' boat instead. We were both soaked in short order.

I've flown the Otters in 3' waves for several years and the only floats I don't like in those conditions are the 7170's. The Edo 7850's used on the Polish Otter are the best.

Rough water and float planes -- back in the day the greatest motivator to be cautious and look for the sheltered bay -- taxi a little longer - have a snooze and wait was the damage done to the aircraft -- split keels -- an pumping floats forever in the morning and several times a day -- busted motor mounts -- sea plane braces etc --- were enough for this cowboy to stay put when the water got too rough -- and guess what -- the trip was still there once it calmed down -- inland lakes and the wave action they create are very hard on equipment --