Algonquin air

[leftoftrack]

It says there is a two year training bond for the aircraft for the cost of training? Any one know how much that is?

[shamrock104]

PM and ask Sulako, I am sure he will let you know.

[Sulako]

Flightsafety quotes us just over 18k (US) for the initial C560 Ultra training course. Plus the cost of hotels and meals for 2 weeks, and the cost of pilot salary during that time, and the cost of airfare to get there etc. If it's someone's first jet then we also need to spend an hour or so in the real airplane after all the sim training is done. I'd ballpark it costs us about 27k to get someone up and running.

[bezerker]

I have a question for you Sulako.

You seem like a nice guy. It seems like a a good place to work. I assume the pay is pretty good and all that stuff.

So we have have:

Nice plane;
Nice boss;
Big city location;
Nice schedule; and
Nice pay.

So with all that, a bond is still needed. The question is, has anyone left before time was up?

If a place like this needs a bond, I guess everyplace needs one.

[Sulako]

Pay is posted at 50k per year for an FO, plus benefits.

The bond has never been an issue. Everyone who has quit (4 in 10 years, all of whom went on to 705 carriers) has done so on good terms. The selection process is pretty thorough, with a big emphasis on a personality that fits our company culture. We want everyone here to be happy and feel that they are treated with respect. Perhaps it's unrelated, but people generally stick around for a while.

Just because it's never been an issue doesn't mean I haven't seen it though. From a distance I have watched more than a few people take a fresh PPC and depart the fix immediately, and a bond is a way of making sure we don't get stung too badly if we should stumble headlong into that scenario. At ~27k per initial, the conversation with an owner would quickly get umm...awkward if we didn't have any measure in place to protect their investment in crew training.

Meanwhile we all work pretty hard to make sure this is a good place to fly. To me, that's far more effective at employee retention than a piece of paper that says we'd lawyer up if someone burned us.

[Illya Kuryakin]

You know I have to toss this in here, don't you Sully.
Other industries just don't do this. Okay, I'm sure we can find an example or two that do, but this is becoming standard in aviation, and I feel that's just wrong.
I know enough about your operation (as you know) to know that you do not need bonds. As with any business, you will lose the odd employee. It's normal. However, you and I know, you're pretty safe here? Why stoop to bonds? I know the arguments as well as the next guy, but I've seen almost no examples.....and I've worked or some pretty crappy operators.
Illya

[Sulako]

I don't think it's stooping at all. We'd never ask a pilot to pay for their own training, but I don't see anything wrong with a promissory bond.

Realistically it's an insurance policy in case of catastrophe - I have never been in a car accident but I still wear a seatbelt when I drive, because it makes me feel safer.

If someone was with us for 18 months and AC called and they said "This is my dream, I gotta go", we'd shake their hand and wish them the best and wouldn't even consider asking them to repay 1/4 of their training costs.

If someone somehow lost their medical a few months after they got trained, we wouldn't consider asking them to repay the cost of training.

Because that's not what the bond is for.

On that note, if someone is uncomfortable with the idea of paying back a portion of their training if they decide to use the PPC to fly for the competition soon after getting trained, they have every right to not apply for this job.

[schnitzel2k3]

Illya, no other industry fronts 20k+ for training an individual.

What other industry has applicants starting 10-20k dollar initial training, only to leave 5 days later to go Encore/Sky/Porter for half the wage...

Cockroaches. I hate bonds as much as the next guy, but I never sign a training agreement unless I know what I am getting into and who I am working for.

Granted...some companies do it unto themselves by deceiving applicants.

Dog eat dog, cut throat bull.

As far as the fore mentioned company, the ad looks good, company looks respectable. Hope the new F/O has enough self respect to stick to their word.

S.

[goingnowherefast]

As much as I dislike the idea of a bond, for a company like this, it's trivial. If I worked for them, I'd stay for quite a while. There are far worse companies that don't have bonds, so in this case it wouldn't stop me from applying.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Illya, no other industry fronts 20k+ for training an individual.

S.

Sure they do. International engineering firms, oil companies, and many high tech industries do it all the time! I did a three month course in Dallas Texas with (not naming names) many years ago. Believe me. Just because you don't know about any in no way means they don't exist.
Illya

[Spokes]

Illya, no other industry fronts 20k+ for training an individual.

S.

Sure they do. International engineering firms, oil companies, and many high tech industries do it all the time! I did a three month course in Dallas Texas with (not naming names) many years ago. Believe me. Just because you don't know about any in no way means they don't exist.
Illya

Yes, they certainly do. My company payed 100k for my training.

[schnitzel2k3]

Fair enough, perhaps I didn't word my thoughts appropriately - I will retract but, tell me...

Did the company pay that training initially before you did any actual field work, or did you work for them for a period of time before they decided to shell out 100K plus on training?

What do they do to keep you with them? I'm not talking bonds now - I'm talking about what the company does to keep your interest?

Is that training translatable to another company in the same field, or is it relatively specific to the company itself?

I think the big problem is how fluid people move in this industry once the training is complete or they have minimal experience on type. I guess may'be it is the same elsewhere. The other problem is that this training is all initial, prior to doing any revenue work, the company is shelling out a sizeable share of its revenue for the year on training a specific individual, only for them to leave immediately or a very short while down the road.

S.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Schnitzel, I find the people and working conditions far more important than just the pay cheque. My company has no bonds. Nobody leaves. Algonquin certainly could do without bonds. There are a couple of operations who reall NEED bond, because they are crappy to work for.
Pretty simple really......learn from the operators that don't have bonds....and do what they do.
Illya

[schnitzel2k3]

Check.

S.

[cdnpilot77]

I view it as a protection to the rest of us pilots that want to be here long term as much as it is for the company.

The company is well above and beyond respectful of career and family needs and I would like to keep it that way! If that means a promissory note will secure that, then I am ok with it.

Ps. Illya, your company is above and beyond as well. I'm very fortunate that I have had 1a and 1b in my career!

[schnitzel2k3]

I would agree with cdn that realistically if I chose to work for a company such as Algonquin, I'm likely not leaving within 2 years under normal circumstances - so what's the big deal with a bond in this case other than insurance against unsavoury pilots?

Even Sulako said there are circumstances where they understand movement earlier than originally agreed upon.

As long as the money doesn't come out of my pocket initially - I'm not even thinking about a bond. 2 years isn't very long in the span of a career.

Like you say Illya - there are companies that need them, Algonquin may not be one of them, but it doesn't hurt to protect oneself.

Do you work for one of the majors Illya? I'll be honest, I don't follow any particular person on here so I have no idea what your background is in this industry. It must be nice for a company to be guaranteed that their training investment will payoff in the short term 100% of the time.

[goingnowherefast]

Pretty simple really......learn from the operators that don't have bonds....and do what they do.

I know a company that doesn't have a bond, but does have a revolving door for pilots. Average stay after training is 8.5 months. I guess they figure it's cheaper to lie and do initial training than it is to do renewals and treat pilots fairly. Please, nobody else, "do what they do"

Like schnitzel2k3 said, Algonquin Air sounds like a reputable company that doesn't require bonds. The fact that they do is largely irrelevant because anybody they hire would stay for 2+ years even if they weren't bonded.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Pretty simple really......learn from the operators that don't have bonds....and do what they do.

I know a company that doesn't have a bond, but does have a revolving door for pilots. Average stay after training is 8.5 months. I guess they figure it's cheaper to lie and do initial training than it is to do renewals and treat pilots fairly. Please, nobody else, "do what they do"
ed.

Obviously, don't do what these guys do! LOL

Schnitzel, no majors for me. I did a gig on a 73 for a while. After 7 months of living out of a suitcase, I bailed. Happy as a clam wher I am. Home every night. No weekends. Four days is a heavy week. Know all our pax personally. Not your average op,,
Illya

[timel]

I think an initial bond is fair and there should not be any for a renewal or an upgrade.

Initially it is a fair way to ensure the company with a new pilot.
It also obligates the pilot to give some serious thinking about commitment and understanding before accepting the job.

[Sulako]

There is no renewal or upgrade bond at Algonquin. Just an initial one.

[Rowdy]

Id be all over this, regardless of the promissory note if it were out west

[Illya Kuryakin]

There is no renewal or upgrade bond at Algonquin. Just an initial one.

And, from what I hear, you'll never have to collect on it!
Illya

[Spokes]

Fair enough, perhaps I didn't word my thoughts appropriately - I will retract but, tell me...

Did the company pay that training initially before you did any actual field work, or did you work for them for a period of time before they decided to shell out 100K plus on training?

What do they do to keep you with them? I'm not talking bonds now - I'm talking about what the company does to keep your interest?

Is that training translatable to another company in the same field, or is it relatively specific to the company itself?

I think the big problem is how fluid people move in this industry once the training is complete or they have minimal experience on type. I guess may'be it is the same elsewhere. The other problem is that this training is all initial, prior to doing any revenue work, the company is shelling out a sizeable share of its revenue for the year on training a specific individual, only for them to leave immediately or a very short while down the road.

S.

They paid my training initially before any work done. Many interviews though. Ground school was in Australia, Flight School in Tel Aviv. This company provides UAV service to military clients. I am in Afghanistan now working as a UAV pilot. Not what I though I would do when I first learned to fly.

To keep me with them they give me buckets of cash. More than I have ever made at any other job. They are very generous with other things as well. Buy me $1000 worth of work clothes every year, good hotels and flexible flight options while traveling. Cover the cost of my medicals, and IFR currency and renewals.

The training is specific to the aircraft, but there are some other companies that operate them.

[Spokes]

[Waldo Peppar]

Edited due thread drift...subject dealt with in another thread.