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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:59 am 
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I've heard a rumor floating around from a number of people (at different bases who don't know each other) that the company offered a %30 increase in pay to the first few years of the FO scale but the union declined unless they gave everyone a raise. Can anyone corroborate this?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:22 pm 
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I've heard that rumour floated around, but only from one source.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:22 pm 
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I have heard something similar as well, but as most rumours go, there was nothing factual presented. If it does turn out to be true, it certainly points to the impending pilot shortage.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:08 pm 
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Interesting, the last contract it was pointed out that the new pay might create problems for recruiting and the companies response was, "we'll know in 6 months if we went too far" I guess it took a little longer but likely causing problems just the same.
Now, personally I don't think giving up bargaining capital to fix the situation they created is the way to go or would get much support. The last contract had essentially no gains, basic inflation increases and no real gains anywhere else in addition to the new hire pay scale. We basically negotiated away any gains and gave them the new pay scale to "be competitive"
So, if the union agreed to a 30% increase for the bottom and nothing for the top, that'll be 7-8 years since any improvements for the rest of the pilots, does not have my support. If pilots aren't applying they'll have to pony up, it's not our job to staff the airline.



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:07 pm 
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This is a new rumor. I think the "new" pay scale should simply be eliminated; bring back years of service when you go for an upgrade, and boost the bottom by a little. Oh, and roll everyone into a DB plan.

Make JAZZ Great Again!



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:20 am 
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Truedude, are you saying this as a new contract Jazz pilot?
In 2010, the most improvement was for the FOs, biggest raises so bringing old payscale and yrs of service back yes, DB yes, improve bottom yes but I reiterate, that will be a long time without any improvements for more senior pilots, might want to toss them a bone.



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:01 am 
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I doubt the JAZZ MEC will sanction any change unless there is a benefit to the entire group. What would benefit the group would be elimination of the B scale and introduce a 2 year VSP. Extending the DB plan to those on the DC plan is not likely.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:40 am 
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mbav8r wrote:
Truedude, are you saying this as a new contract Jazz pilot?
In 2010, the most improvement was for the FOs, biggest raises so bringing old payscale and yrs of service back yes, DB yes, improve bottom yes but I reiterate, that will be a long time without any improvements for more senior pilots, might want to toss them a bone.



I guess I am not sure how much you believe a regional pilot should make? I enjoy a pay raise as much as the next guy, but we are already some of the highest paid regional pilots in the world, along with working under a first class contract. Been here a while, and I would be more than happy with the gains I mentioned. Maybe offer 2 year VSP's. I agree that experience helps keep the operation running smooth, but what sort of uplift for the senior guys do you think is reasonably fair?



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:03 am 
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mbav8r wrote:
Interesting, the last contract it was pointed out that the new pay might create problems for recruiting and the companies response was, "we'll know in 6 months if we went too far" I guess it took a little longer but likely causing problems just the same.
Now, personally I don't think giving up bargaining capital to fix the situation they created is the way to go or would get much support. The last contract had essentially no gains, basic inflation increases and no real gains anywhere else in addition to the new hire pay scale. We basically negotiated away any gains and gave them the new pay scale to "be competitive"
So, if the union agreed to a 30% increase for the bottom and nothing for the top, that'll be 7-8 years since any improvements for the rest of the pilots, does not have my support. If pilots aren't applying they'll have to pony up, it's not our job to staff the airline.


What is the % of senior ie greater than 5 years seniority vs junior pilots at the company. I ask because the junior guys were thrown under the bus by the senior people on the old contract in exchange for a cushy pay flow through agreement with AC so why should they care about increasing pay for the senior guys when they are only planning on spending a few years at jazz and jumping ship anyway?



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:46 pm 
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As mentioned elsewhere on here, they can't be too desperate when they are still pfo'ing experienced pilots, I know 3 personally that are great pilots but were pfo'd, one just recently.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:57 pm 
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Put the new-hire pay scale back to where it was before 2015 - problem solved.

Problem is that Jazz probably want the new-hire pay increases to be counted in the 'cost neutral' calculation meaning they will have to be paid for by concessions elsewhere in the contract. That is a non-starter.

Jazz can start to give out 'signing bonuses' and 'retention bonuses' as has become the norm in the US. And they should not count against the overall cost of the contract.



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:05 pm 
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rudder wrote:
Put the new-hire pay scale back to where it was before 2015 - problem solved.

Problem is that Jazz probably want the new-hire pay increases to be counted in the 'cost neutral' calculation meaning they will have to be paid for by concessions elsewhere in the contract. That is a non-starter.

Jazz can start to give out 'signing bonuses' and 'retention bonuses' as has become the norm in the US. And they should not count against the overall cost of the contract.



Now Signing bonuses i have a problem with. And has caused issues in the states with pilots bouncing from one regional to another to keep collecting bonuses. Be funny if in the near future Jazz is offering retention bonuses. As a guy who has been around for 9 years, I am may not be super senior, and of course would love a bone thrown in my direction. But really, I would just like to see the "new pay scale" eliminated, and a return to all DB plans.



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:55 pm 
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Air.Field wrote:
As mentioned elsewhere on here, they can't be too desperate when they are still pfo'ing experienced pilots, I know 3 personally that are great pilots but were pfo'd, one just recently.


Sadly I also know at least 2 very professional, very experienced drivers with over 4000 hr getting PFOed by both JZA and WJE and that's just simply because they don't know how to score well in these interviews. Everyone who's really serious about getting hired should treat it the same way as an initial type rating course; do the prep course (there's a few very good one out there), learn to recite your BS so that it flows naturally, study the company as much as you can, practice questions with friends and coworkers. You're basically selling yourself, as with everything, the more you practice, the better you get at it ...


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:50 pm 
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truedude wrote:
rudder wrote:
Put the new-hire pay scale back to where it was before 2015 - problem solved.

Problem is that Jazz probably want the new-hire pay increases to be counted in the 'cost neutral' calculation meaning they will have to be paid for by concessions elsewhere in the contract. That is a non-starter.

Jazz can start to give out 'signing bonuses' and 'retention bonuses' as has become the norm in the US. And they should not count against the overall cost of the contract.



Now Signing bonuses i have a problem with. And has caused issues in the states with pilots bouncing from one regional to another to keep collecting bonuses. Be funny if in the near future Jazz is offering retention bonuses. As a guy who has been around for 9 years, I am may not be super senior, and of course would love a bone thrown in my direction. But really, I would just like to see the "new pay scale" eliminated, and a return to all DB plans.


I'd agree with just ditching the B scale, though as much as I'd love a DB pension, given that the majority of new hires probably have the initial intention to go to AC, maintaining a DC pension makes sense from a cost perspective.



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:58 am 
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If a new-hire looks in his or her pocket and finds $50k then it does not really matter what formula was used to put it there. With Bases in YUL/YYZ/YYC/YVR it would be difficult to imagine how to secure accommodations (rental) on a lower income and have any money leftover to eat/run a car/etc.

And with upgrades at 12 months or less to qualified pilots, second year pay of $80k+ looks pretty good.



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:16 am 
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I hate to be the pessimist here but Jazz/AC have spent a lot of money to get rid of the A scale/DB pension and this sound a bit too much like a self-serving rumor. If Jazz was having trouble filling its crewing requirements I'd suspect they'd ask mainline to take fewer of its pilots. Correct me if I'm wrong but PML 2.0 requires AC to hire 80% of its pilots from all three connectors not 80% exclusively from Jazz any more.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:32 am 
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TheStig wrote:
I hate to be the pessimist here but Jazz/AC have spent a lot of money to get rid of the A scale/DB pension and this sound a bit too much like a self-serving rumor. If Jazz was having trouble filling its crewing requirements I'd suspect they'd ask mainline to take fewer of its pilots. Correct me if I'm wrong but PML 2.0 requires AC to hire 80% of its pilots from all three connectors not 80% exclusively from Jazz any more.


There is a big difference between losing pilots faster than you can replace them, or unable to replace them because your new-hire employment conditions are not attracting enough pilots willing to accept an offer of employment.

Jazz will have to determine which scenario is unfolding and act accordingly to remedy it.



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:40 am 
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p.s. the few remaining deferred pilots from PML1.0 are almost all Jazz FO's. There will be Jazz pilots on PML2.0 that move to AC that will be either year 1 or year 2 Captains, or year 1/2/3 FO's. Whatever cost saving that was contemplated by migration of tenured Jazz pilots to AC has already occurred. PML2.0 (and 3.0?) are solely for the purpose of attracting pilots to Jazz, SKY, and GGN so that the AC Express system can continue to meet its commercial schedule.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:36 pm 
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There have already been a pile of no shows for Ground schools. With the likes headed to Sunwing and Transat etc.. instead.

The country is quickly running out of qualified/experienced pilots. I have never seen this many job ads and requirements this low in my 15 years of aviating.

30% would be nuts and probably not viable in the long run. How about just remove the 'classic' airline nonsense and put some sustainable increases back in the pay structure. It'd be nice to get some of the other little perks back too. Especially with all the deadheading I seem to be doing lately.



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:11 pm 
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TheStig wrote:
I hate to be the pessimist here but Jazz/AC have spent a lot of money to get rid of the A scale/DB pension and this sound a bit too much like a self-serving rumor. If Jazz was having trouble filling its crewing requirements I'd suspect they'd ask mainline to take fewer of its pilots. Correct me if I'm wrong but PML 2.0 requires AC to hire 80% of its pilots from all three connectors not 80% exclusively from Jazz any more.


I think the next AC class will frame out the future look of classes to come. Remember it is up to 80% pilots from express. I think there will be many Encore and Porter pilots present. Jazz and GGN are not releasing pilots until post summer. The carrot of PML 2.0 has gone rotten in the crisper drawer. IMHO...Art



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:25 pm 
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That's not entirely correct. I do know people who have been through the hiring process and are waiting on a course date (from Jazz) and AC has not opened up the PML this year (Last one closed Dec 1st). The PML is supposed to be open once a year, or "as needed" according to AC. So far it's still closed so either they don't need as many new applicants as people think or they are waiting to exhaust all the applicants they have first before asking for more. It still takes a solid year at minimum to get from PML to AC course date.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:41 am 
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rudder wrote:
p.s. the few remaining deferred pilots from PML1.0 are almost all Jazz FO's. There will be Jazz pilots on PML2.0 that move to AC that will be either year 1 or year 2 Captains, or year 1/2/3 FO's. Whatever cost saving that was contemplated by migration of tenured Jazz pilots to AC has already occurred. PML2.0 (and 3.0?) are solely for the purpose of attracting pilots to Jazz, SKY, and GGN so that the AC Express system can continue to meet its commercial schedule.


The true cost savings wont actually occur until Jazz is no long paying it's former pilots not to fly for them. I see what you're saying though, having a pilot on the new payscale flow through doesn't save Jazz any money. This buy out was a long term investment in cost savings for Jazz (and Air Canada), and I just don't think there is anyway the airline would bring back A scale wages.

You'd would have had to think that given the ever shrinking numbers of people getting into aviation that essentially re-crewing what? Half or more?? Of the countries third biggest carrier over a 2 year span was always going to be difficult. There are 2 things that seem to attract pilots to tier 2 carriers; Career Advancement and Pay. For airlines such as Jazz, WJe, GGN and SR the third factor they have to consider is the quantity of qualified applicants.

Advancement doesn't seem to be a problem right now. So the big question is, if (and there is still some if in my mind) a tier 2 carrier is having trouble crewing is operation, is it because they aren't paying enough or there aren't enough applicants?



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:58 am 
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TheStig wrote:
rudder wrote:
p.s. the few remaining deferred pilots from PML1.0 are almost all Jazz FO's. There will be Jazz pilots on PML2.0 that move to AC that will be either year 1 or year 2 Captains, or year 1/2/3 FO's. Whatever cost saving that was contemplated by migration of tenured Jazz pilots to AC has already occurred. PML2.0 (and 3.0?) are solely for the purpose of attracting pilots to Jazz, SKY, and GGN so that the AC Express system can continue to meet its commercial schedule.


The true cost savings wont actually occur until Jazz is no long paying it's former pilots not to fly for them. I see what you're saying though, having a pilot on the new payscale flow through doesn't save Jazz any money. This buy out was a long term investment in cost savings for Jazz (and Air Canada), and I just don't think there is anyway the airline would bring back A scale wages.

You'd would have had to think that given the ever shrinking numbers of people getting into aviation that essentially re-crewing what? Half or more?? Of the countries third biggest carrier over a 2 year span was always going to be difficult. There are 2 things that seem to attract pilots to tier 2 carriers; Career Advancement and Pay. For airlines such as Jazz, WJe, GGN and SR the third factor they have to consider is the quantity of qualified applicants.

Advancement doesn't seem to be a problem right now. So the big question is, if (and there is still some if in my mind) a tier 2 carrier is having trouble crewing is operation, is it because they aren't paying enough or there aren't enough applicants?



Just for fun - Do you think if Sky, GGN or Jazz offered 80K to new FO's do you think that their attrition to AC would decrease? Do you think attrition to Transat or the big middle east carriers would decrease if/once that same FO got a PFO from AC?



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:21 am 
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TheStig wrote:

The true cost savings wont actually occur until Jazz is no long paying it's former pilots not to fly for them. I see what you're saying though, having a pilot on the new payscale flow through doesn't save Jazz any money. This buy out was a long term investment in cost savings for Jazz (and Air Canada), and I just don't think there is anyway the airline would bring back A scale wages.



I think that if one were able to truly crawl in to the accounting of the flow of cash and payments between CHR and Jazz and AC as it pertains to the CPA one might be surprised at who is ultimately picking up the tab for the PML1.0 pilots at AC.

The costs that are clearly and directly assumed by Jazz are for the other incentivized severance programs across most of the employee groups. Some were one time - some are ongoing. In those programs Jazz is certainly spending money today in order to save money later (2020 and beyond).

Regardless, pilot staffing across the AC and Express system will continue to be under pressure in particular if growth is still part of the corporate plan. It may be a possibility that growth through acquisition vs organic growth will become a necessity at either level in order to meet expansion needs.



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:47 am 
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I am not sure about this but I recall someone saying that if you flow through to AC, AC picks up all the training costs you had at Jazz (or whatever express you were at). It was a while back, in GS that some instructors were talking about this. Not sure if it's true but it would make a lot of sense why Jazz wouldn't care if you left after a year or two. They have the costs to train you paid for, and can now bring on another 1st year payscale FO.


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