Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by complexintentions » Mon May 07, 2018 6:36 am

RVR6000 wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 11:48 pm
Over measly pilot wages CB will liquidate the company, that’s a funny one.

How does Southwest who westjet is modelled after can afford to pay its pilot on par with the legacy carriers down south.
Southwest does not operate in remotely the same market as WestJet. US and Canada are so different it's hard to know where to begin to list the differences: market size, political agenda, regulatory regimes, tax structure, on and on. One is going hard-core capitalist, the other bent on becoming the first successful communist experiment.

To suggest that simply because they both fly 737's they should be somewhat at par for pay is laughably simplistic.
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by altiplano » Mon May 07, 2018 6:46 am

The corporate dummies are really grasping...

Sell the golden goose paying dividends every quarter out of spite... That's MBA-101...

Or... Shutter the company, sell the assets, move down the street, paint some airplanes, and start new... that's super realistic... your market share will totally wait for you, I'm sure no other companies will fill the gap the day you close...

But... I like the idea of locking out the pilots and starting with 1500 new ones, just like that regional did with 30 guys that were on strike 30 years ago... I'm sure there is no problem finding and training 1500 pilots overnight. It will be operations as normal...
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by FL007 » Mon May 07, 2018 6:53 am

Maurice wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 3:37 pm
sportingrifle wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:48 am
Having lived thru 3 pilots strikes in my career, one of which I voted for, a few thoughts for my friends at WJ.

If the company isn't entering into "meaningful" bargaining, then you get nowhere without a strike vote. How much leverage the strike vote gives your negotiators varies with circumstances. A 90% + vote is very powerful, less than 65% really hurts you. If you are working for a company that is struggling, or you are making wild demands that the company cannot meet, then you are setting yourself up to fail, now or later. But if the company is making demands that the pilots can't meet, like ending their career progression, then the company is setting itself up to fail - now or later.

Neither side wants a strike and it is amazing how much progress is made once a strike is announced. Kinda like settling lawsuits on courthouse steps. But if a strike occurs, the power balance shifts dramatically in favor of the pilots. Firstly, due to the fixed costs of running the airline -primarily the aircraft leasing costs - the company bleeds way faster than the pilots. I can live without a paycheck for a month or two - my airline can't. And while it is the last thing i would ever want, in this job market i could get another one fairly easily. The airline's existence is measured in weeks at best. The BOD simply will not allow the investors capital to evaporate and at some point, management get told to end it. Management also feels pressure that they didn't before. When they were hard ass bargaining, they were seen as controlling costs and making the company more profitable. As I strike drags on, they start to be seen as the problem. If they were to actually cease negotiating and initiate a lockout, even more so. In all the strikes that I was involved with, there were big management turnovers after the strike was over.

Hopefully, WJ management will see that diminishing pilots long term career expectations to chase the most marginally profitable market segment is pretty short term thinking. From an outsider, mutually beneficial solutions that meet both sides needs are certainly attainable. Everybody just has to hit the reset button and start again. But my one word of advice is that heaven forbid, if you do go on strike, stay on strike until you get everything you want. Pilots have a habit of ending strikes just days in to them with many issues still unresolved. After about a week to 10 days in, management are getting really fearful for their jobs and mortgages and that is the point you can negotiate like you could never have dreamed of before the strike.

I suspect with the new CEO, a good strike mandate, and some creative thinking, the reset button will get pushed. The guys at Big Red are really wishing you all the best in this important crossroads in your careers.

sportingrifle
I’m neither a pilot or management, just collateral damage in this mess, but I wanted to make sure I understand the post directed towards sportingrifle’s ‘friends’ at WestJet.

First, without a strong strike mandate you have no power. Second, to really get some power, you need to strike, but don’t worry, you can live without a paycheck for a while. And if things go south you can always get a job somewhere else, there are lots of jobs out there and this industry really values pilot experience over tenure. And finally, if you do strike you need to “stay on strike until you get everything you want”. Don’t worry, management (who will still be getting paid) will be fearful for their mortgages, unlike you who can live without pay for a month or two. They may even lose their jobs and be forced to take their transferable skills to another industry that will most likely pay more since airlines generally underpay.

So please strike and strike for a long time. Your friends at Big Red are really wishing you all the best. Honest, no ulterior motives in these recommendations.
This is one of the only industries where without a specific labour group there is 0 income. Ground handlers/counter agents/lower managers are important but if all of them were sick one day you could manage. Pilots not so much.

Upper management would get paychecks during the strike but for how long? With no income and millions lost a day how would board members look siphoning the reserves in the form of a ridiculous paycheck..

Pilots should be looked at like business partners because really they have the power in a company, not management. This Swoop subterfuge can't be tolerated as a business partner, and as an "owner". Taking 10+ tails away from a business with already insanely long wait times for upgrades? Not acceptable.

Encore is next in this whole mess, they have the right to be bitter as well. Guaranteed flow through to a company that's shrinking tails doesn't seem very enticing to me. The only movement forecast at WJ will be the guys/gals leaving to ac and Transat.
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by mel gibson » Mon May 07, 2018 7:02 am

I am a pilot at the other major airline in Canada . I have a book on how Westjet started.One of the pilot founders actually was involved in a union at his previous airline and disliked the union politics and wanted to make pilots have a strong say and renumeration in the company without a union.

Look at any other business , management and their ilk are getting millions on the backs of their employees. Flying an aircraft to over 100 different locations takes a lifetime of training , experience , sacrifice ( family, moves, money, Health), and so on. That intention from that founder has changed as the company became bigger and responsible to non employee shareholders. Look what has happened to Tim Hortons.

Maybe, in some ways I am relieved that it is not me that has to make this difficult decision this time.

The public and other employees think you are over paid bus drivers. A lot of people are out of work and would love to make 113000 a year being a pilot. But they have no idea what goes into flying an airliner....
As well, I imagine a lot of expats that have filled their bank accounts ,want to come back to Canada and be direct entry Captains at Swoop.

Our union has taken on the direction that you can get more with honey than vinegar and has almost appear to side with management on many issues and then issue numerous news letters touting what they and management have come up with.
Fraternization has become rampant , based on the assumption that they are " influencing" upper management by hanging out with them at major sporting events in corporate boxes. Do not be fooled, they are not your friends and to them you are perceived to be the first group to fold as you have house, boats, cars, cottages etc. to pay for.

My point being ,is your group has the opportunity to make change at this point in aviation history in Canada.All of us have benefitted from the people that have died in wars to protect our freedom and we take it for granted some times.We as pilots do not take for granted what you have the potential to do. Think about how hard you have worked to get to where you are now.
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by sepia » Mon May 07, 2018 7:48 am

squawk wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 10:51 am
RidersRule wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:22 am
Great post.
Don’t think for a second that AC pilots are not loving WJ pilot turmoil. Remember they had a rumour going around that they would join ALPA too? What happened to that game plan? Must have been more of a playbook than a gameplan. They would love nothing more than to see WJ burn to the ground. It’s the old saying “ don’t tell anybody your problems , because half don’t care and the other half are glad you have them.”
Never underestimate the high level of schadenfreude here!
I work at AC, and there isn't a single pilot I know, or have talked to who is "loving WJ pilot turmoil". I don't think it's a stretch to say that we want you to have an amazing contract. Perhaps its selfish, but if you guys got an industry leading contract, that would allow us to try and match it. If you guys don't move up, it makes it harder for anyone else to move forward.

As far as the ALPA thing goes, we've just switched out a few of the big union players and we're moving on towards ALPA. It wasn't a ploy by any means to try and "trick" you guys into joining ALPA. Things move slowly with a big ship. Even more so when many of those steering the ship have a vested interest in status quo. ALPA is coming, it's just a matter of when. I would be surprised if we weren't ALPA by our next contract.

Perhaps before you post again on a topic which you have evidently no clue about, you could reach out and do a bit of fact checking first.
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by Mach1 » Mon May 07, 2018 8:40 am

aerobod wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 7:51 pm
At the moment WestJet’s net equity from an un-encumbered asset, property and cash (minus booking revenue not flown) exceeds the company share valuation of CAD $2.6bn. If there is the possibility of lengthy industrial action that could significantly damage the company value, shareholders and/or the BOD could force a shareholder vote to dissolve the company, liquidate the assets and return the proceeds to the shareholders, while assets value still exceeds the current share value.

Has this ever happened?

I suspect some of the large cap investors and hedge fund people might have something to say about taking an action like that. I can't even imagine the size of the lawsuits.
mel gibson wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 7:02 am
I have a book on how Westjet started.One of the pilot founders actually was involved in a union at his previous airline and disliked the union politics and wanted to make pilots have a strong say and renumeration in the company without a union.
I think that is the start of the problem at WestJet. There used to be a pilot on the board of directors. Once that was no longer the case, things started sliding downhill and only picked up speed over time. We lost our connection to the top, and in turn, they lost their connection to the front line.
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by Bede » Mon May 07, 2018 9:03 am

aerobod wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 7:51 pm
At the moment WestJet’s net equity from an un-encumbered asset, property and cash (minus booking revenue not flown) exceeds the company share valuation of CAD $2.6bn. If there is the possibility of lengthy industrial action that could significantly damage the company value, shareholders and/or the BOD could force a shareholder vote to dissolve the company, liquidate the assets and return the proceeds to the shareholders, while assets value still exceeds the current share value.
It's not quite so simple. That valuation does not take into account future earnings.
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by countdown » Mon May 07, 2018 10:16 am

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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by RVR6000 » Mon May 07, 2018 11:11 am

complexintentions wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 6:36 am
RVR6000 wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 11:48 pm
Over measly pilot wages CB will liquidate the company, that’s a funny one.

How does Southwest who westjet is modelled after can afford to pay its pilot on par with the legacy carriers down south.
Southwest does not operate in remotely the same market as WestJet. US and Canada are so different it's hard to know where to begin to list the differences: market size, political agenda, regulatory regimes, tax structure, on and on. One is going hard-core capitalist, the other bent on becoming the first successful communist experiment.

To suggest that simply because they both fly 737's they should be somewhat at par for pay is laughably simplistic.
From Wikipedia;

Founded by Clive Beddoe, David Neeleman, Mark Hill, Tim Morgan and Donald Bell, WestJet was based on the low-cost carrier business model pioneered by Southwest Airlines and Morris Air in the United States. Its original routes were all located in Western Canada, which gave the airline its name.
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by Hozer » Mon May 07, 2018 11:20 am

Great Comparison, I definitely see the similarity as AirFrance and WestJet are in very similar financial shape. Love the fear mongers on here. Fantasies of “The company liquidating all assesets and closing the doors because of a pilot strike”, to “A pilot Strike bankrupting the company”. #delusional”
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by RidersRule » Mon May 07, 2018 12:45 pm

Hozer wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 11:20 am
Great Comparison, I definitely see the similarity as AirFrance and WestJet are in very similar financial shape. Love the fear mongers on here. Fantasies of “The company liquidating all assesets and closing the doors because of a pilot strike”, to “A pilot Strike bankrupting the company”. #delusional”
Thing is when you have been sold fear for the last decade u stop purchasing it after awhile.
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by countdown » Mon May 07, 2018 1:07 pm

Yes, and of course nothing could go sideways, there is absolutely no reason to research the rest of the industry. Whatever narrative ALPA offers is the gospel, nothing can go wrong as long as you do what they say...
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by tps8903 » Mon May 07, 2018 1:35 pm

countdown wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 1:07 pm
Yes, and of course nothing could go sideways, there is absolutely no reason to research the rest of the industry. Whatever narrative ALPA offers is the gospel, nothing can go wrong as long as you do what they say...
It's funny how the longtime accounts on here seem to mostly, if not entirely support ALPA, and almost all of the ALPA detractors are brand new accounts that have only commented on the WJ/ALPA issues since the start of their very new accounts.

Now, someone will point out the one exception to what I have just said.....
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by atphat » Mon May 07, 2018 2:51 pm

squawk wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 10:51 am
RidersRule wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:22 am
Great post.
Don’t think for a second that AC pilots are not loving WJ pilot turmoil. Remember they had a rumour going around that they would join ALPA too? What happened to that game plan? Must have been more of a playbook than a gameplan. They would love nothing more than to see WJ burn to the ground. It’s the old saying “ don’t tell anybody your problems , because half don’t care and the other half are glad you have them.”
Never underestimate the high level of schadenfreude here!

I'm not sure who you speak for but it's definitely not "AC" pilots. I don't think any AC pilot wants to see a WJ colleague suffer. In fact I think every professional pilot in Canada is hoping they get their scope figured out which will in turn help the entire industry.
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by skypirate88 » Mon May 07, 2018 5:23 pm

Apparently the 787 will be revealed tomorrow...good timing with the pilot picket tomorrow as well.
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by squawk » Mon May 07, 2018 7:43 pm

atphat wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 2:51 pm
squawk wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 10:51 am
RidersRule wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:22 am
Great post.
Don’t think for a second that AC pilots are not loving WJ pilot turmoil. Remember they had a rumour going around that they would join ALPA too? What happened to that game plan? Must have been more of a playbook than a gameplan. They would love nothing more than to see WJ burn to the ground. It’s the old saying “ don’t tell anybody your problems , because half don’t care and the other half are glad you have them.”
Never underestimate the high level of schadenfreude here!

I'm not sure who you speak for but it's definitely not "AC" pilots. I don't think any AC pilot wants to see a WJ colleague suffer. In fact I think every professional pilot in Canada is hoping they get their scope figured out which will in turn help the entire industry.

If you don’t have a dog in this fight than I suggest you keep your comments to yourself. Funny how all the AC pilots pile in when their competitor is in a bad way. Not all of us have the privilege of working for the “people’s airline”.
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by RustyDeuce » Mon May 07, 2018 8:03 pm

skypirate88 wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 5:23 pm
Apparently the 787 will be revealed tomorrow...good timing with the pilot picket tomorrow as well.
Good timing? It's a great way to build resentment against the pilot group sure. That feeling is growing outside of the FA and pilot ranks. Take that to the bank.
Leaders in the company? Not anymore.
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by sepia » Mon May 07, 2018 8:24 pm

squawk wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 7:43 pm
atphat wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 2:51 pm
squawk wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 10:51 am


Don’t think for a second that AC pilots are not loving WJ pilot turmoil. Remember they had a rumour going around that they would join ALPA too? What happened to that game plan? Must have been more of a playbook than a gameplan. They would love nothing more than to see WJ burn to the ground. It’s the old saying “ don’t tell anybody your problems , because half don’t care and the other half are glad you have them.”
Never underestimate the high level of schadenfreude here!

I'm not sure who you speak for but it's definitely not "AC" pilots. I don't think any AC pilot wants to see a WJ colleague suffer. In fact I think every professional pilot in Canada is hoping they get their scope figured out which will in turn help the entire industry.

If you don’t have a dog in this fight than I suggest you keep your comments to yourself. Funny how all the AC pilots pile in when their competitor is in a bad way. Not all of us have the privilege of working for the “people’s airline”.
How bent are you squawk? The only things AC guys have said here are well wishes for our peers and friends. No one at AC is crossing their fingers behind their backs while saying good luck.

You've misrepresented absolutely everything you've posted about with regards to AC pilots. Just step away from the keyboard.

I truly understand these aren't easy times. I've been exactly where you're at now. I remember having a young family, applying for a max line of credit to prepare for the worst. I made it out okay and you guys will too. Don't let the fear mongering bullshit liquidate the company crap get to you.

No one gets to the airline level without having worked with people who've taken different forks in the road. Wishing harm on WJ would be wishing harm on many of my good friends.

I hope you guys get an industry leading contact. I know a lot of guys at WJ and they've all worked super hard to get there. You deserve a fair contact, don't sell yourself short.
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by squawk » Mon May 07, 2018 8:51 pm

sepia wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 8:24 pm
squawk wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 7:43 pm
atphat wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 2:51 pm



I'm not sure who you speak for but it's definitely not "AC" pilots. I don't think any AC pilot wants to see a WJ colleague suffer. In fact I think every professional pilot in Canada is hoping they get their scope figured out which will in turn help the entire industry.

If you don’t have a dog in this fight than I suggest you keep your comments to yourself. Funny how all the AC pilots pile in when their competitor is in a bad way. Not all of us have the privilege of working for the “people’s airline”.
How bent are you squawk? The only things AC guys have said here are well wishes for our peers and friends. No one at AC is crossing their fingers behind their backs while saying good luck.

You've misrepresented absolutely everything you've posted about with regards to AC pilots. Just step away from the keyboard.

I truly understand these aren't easy times. I've been exactly where you're at now. I remember having a young family, applying for a max line of credit to prepare for the worst. I made it out okay and you guys will too. Don't let the fear mongering bullshit liquidate the company crap get to you.

No one gets to the airline level without having worked with people who've taken different forks in the road. Wishing harm on WJ would be wishing harm on many of my good friends.

I hope you guys get an industry leading contact. I know a lot of guys at WJ and they've all worked super hard to get there. You deserve a fair contact, don't sell yourself short.
Thanks for your reply. I still hold to my position that the majority of AC pilots would like to see a buffalo jump as far as Westjet pilots are concerned.
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by altiplano » Mon May 07, 2018 9:44 pm

I think you're wrong. I think the majority of AC pilots aren't following it at all... the ones that are though, want to see you guys do well.

Most of us have many friends, former colleagues, and even family across both companies.. I want nothing more than the best for all of us, a healthy industry, and a strong united profession...

I want you to get a better rate than I have, and then I want to push the bar higher again on our next go... that's it... all I want is to get paid more and it takes both groups pushing to achieve it.

We all need to reach North American industry standard. ie. US major wages.
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by Canadianjetpilot » Tue May 08, 2018 12:06 am

RustyDeuce wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 8:03 pm
skypirate88 wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 5:23 pm
Apparently the 787 will be revealed tomorrow...good timing with the pilot picket tomorrow as well.
Good timing? It's a great way to build resentment against the pilot group sure. That feeling is growing outside of the FA and pilot ranks. Take that to the bank.
Leaders in the company? Not anymore.
Not sure who exactly you are talking to - except maybe Campus staff who are very much victim's of executive propaganda WRT to the happenings outside their walls.

As you may or may not know the WJ maintenance department is currently in a state of being significantly understaffed with a steady stream of AME's leaving for greener pastures. You may want to ask one of them why that is. I can also tell you that the maintenance department is closely following the pilot progress and taking notes on how the pilots have been able to get the executive to the table and start to make real change to their working conditions.

As are the CSA's who at present aren't sure if they will be 'Encored' into lower paying positions when the pink 737's replace the blue and green 737's at the soon to be Swoop bases. The company has already set that precedent, is attempting to do the same with the pilots and it is not unreasonable to expect they will continue to do so.

I'll also add this. The WJ pilot group is guiding their representation not ALPA. ALPA is merely providing support to those efforts. Nor is the pilot group being greedy. Greedy would be insisting on being compensated higher than everyone else. That is not the case. The pilot group simply wants industry standard duty and rest limits, standard trip rigs, and to protect the jobs of those here now and those to follow later so no one else gets 'Encored'. There is a reason EVERY other airline in North America has those standards. Those standards improve many aspects of a pilots career making them healthier, safer and more productive and having less TAFB. You need look no further than the near catastrophic health issues that befell WJ pilots in the last few years as a result of being overworked under the current work conditions ( which happen to be the lowest of all the major Civil Aviation Authorities worldwide). The company's own safety reports showed an over 80% increase in fatigue related occurrence reports between 2014 and 2016. Interesting note: those reports were removed from employee access in 2017.

I believe the AC folk are in our court because they recognize that without unity amongst our professional peers we will continue to see this profession be marginalized.
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by tsgas » Tue May 08, 2018 9:14 am

WJA stock just hit a 12 month low today. :smt014
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by Noo » Tue May 08, 2018 9:26 am

Ma teefor
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by Fanblade » Tue May 08, 2018 2:38 pm

squawk wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 8:51 pm


Thanks for your reply. I still hold to my position that the majority of AC pilots would like to see a buffalo jump as far as Westjet pilots are concerned.
Your view point I find odd. AC pilots in no way see themselves as competing with WJ pilots. Nor do we want any harm to come to you. Our companies compete but not the employee groups. The WJ pilots are brothers and sisters. We AC pilots know all too well what you are going through. We also know the tables will one day turn again on us. It’s inevitable.

This is a first contract. The second you set a strike deadline, if it even gets that far, WJ will request binding arbitration and it will be granted. It is highly unlikely an arbitrator will give away work you are contractually entitled to. Never heard of it happening. Likely the arbitrator will smack WJ for thier behaviour. Industry standard is your hourly rate multiplied by the amount of hours they flew at the offending operation.
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Re: Exit Polls Showing Over 90% Strike Mandate Support

Post by Alcoholism » Tue May 08, 2018 2:44 pm

There's a difference between a WJ pilot and a AC pilot. WJ pilots have a backbone.
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