Appologies

[Torontomaplelaughs]

On behalf of any Air Canada pilot I talk to...

WE APPOLOGIZE for what our MEC Chair wrote today to ALPA President Tim Perry. He threw ALPA pilots "Under the Bus"

Our leadership does not represent what many of us want. We fully respect the ALPA pilot group. We want solidarity for this profession. It needs it so badly.

Sorry,

Many AC Pilots

[planebored]

Agreed. He doesn't speak for me or many others I've heard from today. Talk about tone deaf.

[altiplano]

I don't generally "like" the present MEC Chair... but where is he wrong or "tone deaf" here?

AC Pilots have a contract in place regarding CPA fleet sizes and ratios and they are being exceeded. At the same time AC retires fins from essentially the same gauge fleet (E190s, 319s) and lays off pilots.

What's the problem with reaching out to a brother to represent your pilots scope of work?

[Torontomaplelaughs]

I don't generally "like" the present MEC Chair... but where is he wrong or "tone deaf" here?

AC Pilots have a contract in place regarding CPA fleet sizes and ratios and they are being exceeded. At the same time AC retires fins from essentially the same gauge fleet (E190s, 319s) and lays off pilots.

What's the problem with reaching out to a brother to represent your pilots scope of work?

I think "reaching out" is fine

Publicly trying to make ALPA an enemy is not the way forward. This wreaks of a desperate man hunting for an enemy.

- Perhaps a letter to the government lobbying on the behalf of this profession
- Perhaps lobbying for CEWs on behalf of the 600 furloughs
- Perhaps direction on OT with furloughs

[planebored]

The letter was pretty direct and pretty much accused Jazz/SKR pilots of "walking over scope lines" when in reality they likely have no idea, and it's not their problem anyways this is a issue between ACPA and AC. They're just doing their jobs as they are required to.

[altiplano]

I didn't read it as accusatory or vilifying ALPA/ALPA pilots, but maybe that's just because of my disposition. I can see how someone might read it that way and MM no doubt wants to . stones in front of the membership given the politics at play with elections currently underway in 3 bases.

Either way though, taking all possible avenues to put pressure from all sides on the company to stop the scope violation is reasonable.

I realize express guys are likely unaware and just going to work, but now they know they are doing someone else's work, they may not care, but at least they've been notified and can reconcile that however they wish.

[Daniel Cooper]

I don't know what they want the regional pilots to do about it. Tell their company they're not doing the trip because it belongs to AC pilots? That's pretty silly and probably legal grounds for dismissal.

[rudder]

Nice try. Acting as if the Express pilots are ‘scabbing’ AC pilot work.

File the grievance. Take it to arbitration. Get the result.

My prediction? Win the grievance. But get no remedy from the arbitrator.

Fact check - 85% of the AC pilots are on payroll doing 20% of the originally planned block hours. AC could do all of the Express flying and not need to recall any of the 600.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

I’m also confused as a former Jazz pilot. Most of Jazz’s flying is to small markets that couldn’t even support the type of aircraft AC operates, let alone fill enough seats to make it economically viable. Is ACPA’s position to try and get mainline pilots running YYZ-YSB or YVR-YYJ in a 319/320/321 instead of Jazz?

Or do they want Jazz to park planes and not serve these markets just to get Scope ratios back in order?

I get it that the regional flying is “owned” by Air Canada, but it always struck me as it being the type of flying that was beneath AC pilots who neither wanted to do it or couldn’t do it on mainline equipment.

[Johnny767]

I've seen lame but this is ridiculous, there must be lots of laughter at the Jazz/Sky MEC table. This is the group that tried (offered) to fly 320's for Dash 8 wages.

[the-minister31]

And one more thing... express guys don't owe anything to mainline guys. It's between AC and ACPA.

What do you want, a strike from express to help ACPA? And what's in it for SKY/JZA pilots?

[Fanblade]

I don't generally "like" the present MEC Chair... but where is he wrong or "tone deaf" here?

AC Pilots have a contract in place regarding CPA fleet sizes and ratios and they are being exceeded. At the same time AC retires fins from essentially the same gauge fleet (E190s, 319s) and lays off pilots.

What's the problem with reaching out to a brother to represent your pilots scope of work?

I think "reaching out" is fine

Publicly trying to make ALPA an enemy is not the way forward. This wreaks of a desperate man hunting for an enemy.

- Perhaps a letter to the government lobbying on the behalf of this profession
- Perhaps lobbying for CEWs on behalf of the 600 furloughs
- Perhaps direction on OT with furloughs

Politically motivated was my take. We have an election going on and there is a slate of candidates running under a banner that wants to take ACPA to ALPA. Pilots for change.

It was meant to showcase ALPA as a problem IMO. Or showcase that the scope issue might be more difficult to deal with if we were ALPA.

What we don’t need is ACPA doing something to ignite the hostilities of the past for political reasons.

Oh yeah as the guy making fun of my hockey team said. Sorry. Please ignore

Edit: disclosure I am an AC pilot

[Fanblade]

Nice try. Acting as if the Express pilots are ‘scabbing’ AC pilot work.

File the grievance. Take it to arbitration. Get the result.

My prediction? Win the grievance. But get no remedy from the arbitrator.

Fact check - 85% of the AC pilots are on payroll doing 20% of the originally planned block hours. AC could do all of the Express flying and not need to recall any of the 600.

Yup.

This illustrates why as pilots we need one voice. Open dialogue about what is going on is good. An open letter with thinly veiled accusations is bad.

Hopefully this backfires. Ignore it. Don’t let them ignite another war. Go P4C

[altiplano]

I've now heard that MM originally had a letter multitudes worse that was pressured to be scaled back by others on the MEC, so clearly it is politically motivated referencing these current elections. What a prick.

Sorry for that indeed.

[Fanblade]

I’m also confused as a former Jazz pilot. Most of Jazz’s flying is to small markets that couldn’t even support the type of aircraft AC operates, let alone fill enough seats to make it economically viable. Is ACPA’s position to try and get mainline pilots running YYZ-YSB or YVR-YYJ in a 319/320/321 instead of Jazz?

Or do they want Jazz to park planes and not serve these markets just to get Scope ratios back in order?

I get it that the regional flying is “owned” by Air Canada, but it always struck me as it being the type of flying that was beneath AC pilots who neither wanted to do it or couldn’t do it on mainline equipment.

Of course ACPA scope language can’t be adhered to at the moment. It’s not possible.

ACPA and AC came to terms on temporary suspending large sections of Article 1 (Scope) during this crisis. For some unknown reason to the pilot group the amount of CPA flying relative to mainline was not one of them. That section went to grievance. Why this happened is unknown. We don’t have enough details.

[rudder]

I've now heard that MM originally had a letter multitudes worse that was pressured to be scaled back by others on the MEC, so clearly it is politically motivated referencing these current elections. What a prick.

Sorry for that indeed.

Pre-COVID, the Express ‘scab’ pilots were flying and training like crazy to help cover for the parked 737’s (while the mainline 737 pilots sat at their cottage getting paid) and to cover historical attrition to feed the mainline growth machine. The ultimate beneficiary of those efforts was the mainline pilot group.

So, yes - this letter is entirely politically motivated and completely ignorant of the past. Just a convenient snapshot to rile up the troops. I hope the troops are smarter than that.

The announcement made 1 hour ago is the one that should have 100% of the attention of the AC MEC, and the AC pilots.

[planebored]

If you think it's a coincidence MM sent a letter to ALPA talking about scope the before this AT announcement...

In the middle of an election where the result will have an effect on his standing as MEC Chair, well I have a bridge to sell you.

[GATRKGA]

I didn't read it as accusatory or vilifying ALPA/ALPA pilots, but maybe that's just because of my disposition. I can see how someone might read it that way and MM no doubt wants to . stones in front of the membership given the politics at play with elections currently underway in 3 bases.

Either way though, taking all possible avenues to put pressure from all sides on the company to stop the scope violation is reasonable.

I realize express guys are likely unaware and just going to work, but now they know they are doing someone else's work, they may not care, but at least they've been notified and can reconcile that however they wish.

You think the express pilots feel bad for AC pilots work when the AC pilots created this mess in the first place? They’re probably laughing and looking at this through the scope that if AC wants to exploit their wages and working conditions to then maybe pfo them after 4 years of loyal, hard work, good training records and attitudes, it’s easy for the express pilots to let that chip on their shoulder play out with a bit of a F U mentality in an instance like this.

Not that I have a dog in that fight, but try to understand why express pilots might not give a F given this mess was an ACPA mess to begin with.

Good luck ac pilots, you’ve created quite the mess for yourselves especially with the ts announcement this morning.

[rudder]

I realize express guys are likely unaware and just going to work, but now they know they are doing someone else's work, they may not care, but at least they've been notified and can reconcile that however they wish.

Just in case you were not aware, approximately 60% of the Express pilots are ‘inactive’ (a polite form of furlough).

Would it please you if more volunteered to be made ‘inactive’?

[flyingcanuck]

I didn't read it as accusatory or vilifying ALPA/ALPA pilots, but maybe that's just because of my disposition. I can see how someone might read it that way and MM no doubt wants to . stones in front of the membership given the politics at play with elections currently underway in 3 bases.

Either way though, taking all possible avenues to put pressure from all sides on the company to stop the scope violation is reasonable.

I realize express guys are likely unaware and just going to work, but now they know they are doing someone else's work, they may not care, but at least they've been notified and can reconcile that however they wish.

You think the express pilots feel bad for AC pilots work when the AC pilots created this mess in the first place? They’re probably laughing and looking at this through the scope that if AC wants to exploit their wages and working conditions to then maybe pfo them after 4 years of loyal, hard work, good training records and attitudes, it’s easy for the express pilots to let that chip on their shoulder play out with a bit of a F U mentality in an instance like this.

Not that I have a dog in that fight, but try to understand why express pilots might not give a F given this mess was an ACPA mess to begin with.

Good luck ac pilots, you’ve created quite the mess for yourselves especially with the ts announcement this morning.

What Kills me is that most of the guy's griping came from express within the last 3 years. Seems to be some are forgetting where they came from and can't even see it from a different perspective

[planebored]

I didn't read it as accusatory or vilifying ALPA/ALPA pilots, but maybe that's just because of my disposition. I can see how someone might read it that way and MM no doubt wants to . stones in front of the membership given the politics at play with elections currently underway in 3 bases.

Either way though, taking all possible avenues to put pressure from all sides on the company to stop the scope violation is reasonable.

I realize express guys are likely unaware and just going to work, but now they know they are doing someone else's work, they may not care, but at least they've been notified and can reconcile that however they wish.

You think the express pilots feel bad for AC pilots work when the AC pilots created this mess in the first place? They’re probably laughing and looking at this through the scope that if AC wants to exploit their wages and working conditions to then maybe pfo them after 4 years of loyal, hard work, good training records and attitudes, it’s easy for the express pilots to let that chip on their shoulder play out with a bit of a F U mentality in an instance like this.

ACPA isn't PFO'ing anyone. That's the Company. Just to be clear. And don't forget who OK'd the PMLs and the most recent 60% flow agreement. ACPA did.

[rudder]

ACPA isn't PFO'ing anyone. That's the Company. Just to be clear. And don't forget who OK'd the PMLs and the most recent 60% flow agreement. ACPA did.

ACPA doesn’t do AC pilot interviews. AC does. ACPA doesn’t hire AC pilots. AC does.

ACPA assigns a seniority number to a new-hire pilot. That seniority number is the bottom of the list on the date that corresponds to a PIT course. The only exception granted by ACPA was PML 1.0 (reserved seniority numbers following job offer that corresponded with applicable PIT course).

60% Jazz/10% SKV hiring does not require ACPA consent as there are no longer course deferral rights for Express pilots.

[planebored]

ACPA isn't PFO'ing anyone. That's the Company. Just to be clear. And don't forget who OK'd the PMLs and the most recent 60% flow agreement. ACPA did.

ACPA doesn’t do AC pilot interviews. AC does. ACPA doesn’t hire AC pilots. AC does.

ACPA assigns a seniority number to a new-hire pilot. That seniority number is the bottom of the list on the date that corresponds to a PIT course. The only exception granted by ACPA was PML 1.0 (reserved seniority numbers following job offer that corresponded with applicable PIT course).

60% Jazz/10% SKV hiring does not require ACPA consent as there are no longer course deferral rights for Express pilots.

Agreed. From my understanding though, it was run by ACPA as a courtesy.

[rxl]

I realize express guys are likely unaware and just going to work, but now they know they are doing someone else's work, they may not care, but at least they've been notified and can reconcile that however they wish.

We are very well aware ... you’ve been reminding us constantly since 1987.
I respect union scope of work clauses. The harsh reality for everyone is that the marketplace and the pandemic do not. I think that maybe it’s you that needs to reconcile something ... the fact that any violation to your scope comes from your management and not from an Express pilot doing his/her job.

[47north]

[/quote]

What Kills me is that most of the guy's griping came from express within the last 3 years. Seems to be some are forgetting where they came from and can't even see it from a different perspective
[/quote]

Doesn’t surprise me in the least.