Pilots in waiting NWAL Post

[shamrock104]

Just noticed the ad in the employment forum. One of the requirements is IATRA written with at least 6 months left before it expires. This actually expires after 2 years but yet they indicate a wait time of 18 months plus to get to the flight line, does not make a lot of sense to ask for this.

[Vsquared]

18 months?! Didn't see that part until now. Is there actually people willing to move somewhere so remote to work a ramp/dispatch for 18 months? Can't imagine the pay being too much more than the inflated living expenses. 1.5 years on the ramp making nothing, 2 years on a smaller multi making nothing, then the decision to either move to civilization and make nothing for another 2 years at a regional, or make an average wage as a captain in the middle of nowhere. Is this career even viable for anyone just getting in now? Insane.

[North Shore]

18 months? 1.5 years on the ramp making nothing, 2 years on a smaller multi making nothing, then the decision to either move to civilization and make nothing for another 2 years at a regional, or make an average wage as a captain in the middle of nowhere. Is this career even viable for anyone just getting in now? Insane.

You mean the way it used to be for 100s of guys/gals before the craziness of the last 5-7 years? Crazy, right?

[Vsquared]

[/quote]

You mean the way it used to be for 100s of guys/gals before the craziness of the last 5-7 years? Crazy, right?
[/quote]

Yeah that's fair. Just my opinion that it's pretty crazy to leave your family/friends/life behind to move somewhere remote and struggle financially for the prospect of very slightly greener pastures 4 years down the road.

[CL-Skadoo!]

Yeah that's fair. Just my opinion that it's pretty crazy to leave your family/friends/life behind to move somewhere remote and struggle financially for the prospect of very slightly greener pastures 4 years down the road.

That's pretty much what most of us did. Me, I am grateful for all I got out of it. 20+ years later, it has given me more than I could have asked for and paid for the sacrifice many times over. I always made enough for an ok rental and enough to eat. Met incredible people from whom I learned a ton. I'm not sure which silver platter you wish to eat from, but you best get around that notion.

[Vsquared]

Yeah that's fair. Just my opinion that it's pretty crazy to leave your family/friends/life behind to move somewhere remote and struggle financially for the prospect of very slightly greener pastures 4 years down the road.

That's pretty much what most of us did. Me, I am grateful for all I got out of it. 20+ years later, it has given me more than I could have asked for and paid for the sacrifice many times over. I always made enough for an ok rental and enough to eat. Met incredible people from whom I learned a ton. I'm not sure which silver platter you wish to eat from, but you best get around that notion.

I mean I'm doing okay and recognize that I was lucky to get in when I did and move up to a better job quickly from there. But I do worry for some of the people getting into this industry. I've met people who have given everything to this industry and been a "yes man" the whole time only to realize they have been getting exploited their entire career and didn't make it anywhere, and I've met senior airline captains who certainly made some sacrifices, but also approached their career with a business/analytical mindset and refused to be pushed around/exploited/bullied.
No right or wrong, all comes down to the individual and how they judge risk/reward. I can respect you for putting in the work to end up where you are now, obviously if you're doing well you made some great decisions along the way!

[2nine9two]

Having the IATRA written was not a requirement for hire at NWAL until sometime around 2017, But there was an issue with someone being close to PPC and then failing the IATRA, which messed up scheduling.

I think the thought is that having an IATRA that will probably expire at least proves that you have the ability to pass it, even if you need to go write it again as wait time can vary depending on industry conditions.

[2112]

18 months?! Didn't see that part until now. Is there actually people willing to move somewhere so remote to work a ramp/dispatch for 18 months? Can't imagine the pay being too much more than the inflated living expenses. 1.5 years on the ramp making nothing, 2 years on a smaller multi making nothing, then the decision to either move to civilization and make nothing for another 2 years at a regional, or make an average wage as a captain in the middle of nowhere. Is this career even viable for anyone just getting in now? Insane.

Welcome to 2008, There are 40 other low timer's on the ramp with you who will throw you under the bus at the earliest convenience in order to move 1 step closer to that right seat, If you want to be a professional pilot in the next 2 years this is the way. Many of us went this route and at the time it was a shit sandwich but eventually nostalgia takes hold and I wouldn't have done it any other way. Best of luck to all those starting out in the next couple years this downturn will build your character.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Yes. Those before you suffered, so you should also.

God forbid we work in an industry where those before us work to improve things. That just wouldn't be fair.

[Kaykay]

Yes. Those before you suffered, so you should also.

God forbid we work in an industry where those before us work to improve things. That just wouldn't be fair.

This industry is not unique in having poor early prospects for fresh grads, many career paths have similar early years. You’re welcome to seek other opportunities if you don’t like it. Otherwise, work with the hand you’re dealt and try being part of the change you want to see rather than crying about it on an anonymous forum.

[shamrock104]

Now getting back to my initial observation of the IATRA requirement with 6 months remaining it seems an awful lot of messing around to let it expire and maybe, just maybe get a flying job at 18 months. A better suggestion may be to hire for the ramp and ramp only and then hire Pilots when needed who have the necessary requirements. Maybe its the carrot being dangled on the end of the stick and maybe its a case of nobody wanting to move there to do just ramp work, just my thoughts guys and girls.

[Can Pilot]

I think it is a great opportunity for someone who is a low time pilot with no family obligations. Not too many other job opportunities out there currently in the aviation sector. Once things pick back up the wait time on the ramp will decrease rapidly. A good position to be in compared to the ones that stayed down south.

[beaverpuq]

Don’t underestimate what you may learn just being around an air service and experienced pilots. It will also look better on the resume than something unrelated to aviation. Immerse yourself in the local aviation community. You never know who you made have made an impression on by casual contact. It has helped me.

[co-joe]

I bet NWAL pays ok for the ramp. They were paying well for Jetstream Captains a couple years ago when I talked to them at a job fair (still got the free hat). I bet even as a rampie you can just hop on the sched to YEG for the weekend if you need some southern hospitality. Probably about as good an opportunity as you'll find in this mess right now.

[shimmydampner]

Yes. Those before you suffered, so you should also.

God forbid we work in an industry where those before us work to improve things. That just wouldn't be fair.

Oh goodness. Suffering? Maybe take about 20-25% off the melodrama you know nothing about.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Yes. Those before you suffered, so you should also.

God forbid we work in an industry where those before us work to improve things. That just wouldn't be fair.

Oh goodness. Suffering? Maybe take about 20-25% off the melodrama you know nothing about.

Alright, granted, "suffered" is perhaps an exaggeration, and certainly a subjective opinion.

I haven't started interviewing for a pilot position yet, so you are also correct in saying I know nothing about the melodrama I'm rallying against.

But here's where I'm coming from: I've worked in IT for 20 years, I've interviewed people, and I've supervised people. I earned my stripes from the ground up, as has everyone in my position in my profession. But how well do you think it would go over if my hiring position was "sure, we'll hire you as a programmer, but it will be a programmer in waiting position, so you'll be mopping floors, answering phones, and taking out the garbage for 18 months (maybe you'll get to load a bit of network hardware into a truck now and then though), and then maybe, if we like your work ethic, then we might put you in front of a keyboard"?

It just wouldn't fly. With that kind of hiring nonsense we would likely end up facing a labour investigation sooner or later. I don't think it would fly in any of the trades, and it sure as hell wouldn't fly in mine. I fail to understand why this is seen as an acceptable rite of passage in aviation while at the same time I cannot see any similar system in any other line of work (with doctors and lawyers being possible exceptions). And this is without being asked to live in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, while being eaten alive by every flying insect known to man.

Don't get me wrong, I've made this decision, and I'll play the game - willingly, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. That doesn't mean I think it's fair, and it doesn't mean there can't be a better way. I just think that the only reason the current model, this "in waiting" or "ramp position" nonsense works is because employers are able to take advantage of the hopes and dreams of aspiring pilots. I'd love to see that change, and should I ever find myself in a position to help effect that change, rest assured, I will.

And please keep in mind this is coming from someone who aspires to become a career bush pilot and has zero issues with loading fuel, cooking meals for ungrateful guests, answering phones, or taking out the garbage. I'll even mop the floors while whistling show tunes.

[lownslow]

In my experience pilots make better rampies and rampies make better pilots.

[goldeneagle]

I don't think it would fly in any of the trades, and it sure as hell wouldn't fly in mine.

It's always been that way in the trades. Hire on initially as a labor, work for a few months. If the employer likes the result, they will consider putting you into an apprenticeship. this whole business of going to school for 'foundation' courses is relatively new, and not required.

When son went to start in the trades, he was signed up for the foundations course to start in a few months, but got a job as a labor in the field. He was told at the start, its a 3 month probation, and if he made the grade during that time, he would be signed up for an apprenticeship. So before his 'foundations' course was even going to start, he had an apprentice number, told the school he would not be coming after all. Decent employer, put down his original start date for the start of apprenticeship, so when he got the provincial number, already had 1/4 of the first year hours in.

[flyingjerry]

I don't think it would fly in any of the trades, and it sure as hell wouldn't fly in mine.

It's always been that way in the trades. Hire on initially as a labor, work for a few months. If the employer likes the result, they will consider putting you into an apprenticeship. this whole business of going to school for 'foundation' courses is relatively new, and not required.

When son went to start in the trades, he was signed up for the foundations course to start in a few months, but got a job as a labor in the field. He was told at the start, its a 3 month probation, and if he made the grade during that time, he would be signed up for an apprenticeship. So before his 'foundations' course was even going to start, he had an apprentice number, told the school he would not be coming after all. Decent employer, put down his original start date for the start of apprenticeship, so when he got the provincial number, already had 1/4 of the first year hours in.

And you have just described the relationship of first officer to captain. Not rampie to pilot.

[goldeneagle]

I don't think it would fly in any of the trades, and it sure as hell wouldn't fly in mine.

It's always been that way in the trades. Hire on initially as a labor, work for a few months. If the employer likes the result, they will consider putting you into an apprenticeship. this whole business of going to school for 'foundation' courses is relatively new, and not required.

When son went to start in the trades, he was signed up for the foundations course to start in a few months, but got a job as a labor in the field. He was told at the start, its a 3 month probation, and if he made the grade during that time, he would be signed up for an apprenticeship. So before his 'foundations' course was even going to start, he had an apprentice number, told the school he would not be coming after all. Decent employer, put down his original start date for the start of apprenticeship, so when he got the provincial number, already had 1/4 of the first year hours in.

And you have just described the relationship of first officer to captain. Not rampie to pilot.

Actually no. The probation period is to see if the individual will 'fit' with the rest of the folks at the organization, before spending the bucks on type training. What I described was the progression from ramp to flying.

I have in the past made the mistake of hiring based on a resume and a good interview, then found myself stuck with that individual on a 6 hour hold in a small northern place a few months later. Do you know how much money gets wasted sending an inappropriate candidate to FliteSafety ?

You want to start a career in big airplanes, go to the outfit and prove to them you are a good investment. A few months working the ramp is not a big deal in the context of a career if you are just starting out. those who take the positions today will be first in line for seats as the industry picks up, and they will be sitting in the left seat when the next crop comes along, and that'll be the crop of folks that felt they were to good to do the ramp tour.

You dont have to like it, can call it unfair and such, doesn't matter. The day will come when you are asking for the right seat, and the guy moving to the left seat is the one who took the ramp job this season.

[shimmydampner]

I don't think it would fly in any of the trades, and it sure as hell wouldn't fly in mine. I fail to understand why this is seen as an acceptable rite of passage in aviation

I dare say that putting a fresh out of school 20 year old behind a keyboard is a very different thing than putting them behind the controls of an airplane. I'm not sure that the IT industry is an apt comparison to aviation.

At the end of the day, ramp positions don't exist because every operation is run by a cabal of sadists who are gratified by the drudgery of young pilots. They exist because pilot supply is greater than demand and this has the effect of throttling back times to the flight line. If you feel like waiting your turn in a spot that will lead directly to a flying position, or if you would rather take your chances outside aviation is up to you. No one is forcing you, and no one is expecting you to endure some imaginary, long term hazing ritual. But either way, the pace of movement in the industry is beyond anyone's control and it's up to you to either deal with the reality or not.

[“Bob”]

Ramp sucks.

I never did it.

Now I get paid to eat and nap and stay at home. Maybe fly an airplane occasionally.

Not everyone has to be a slave.

[YYZshill]

yup ramp sucks. Did the instructing route for a year and didn't have any regrets at all. Still ended up at a northern airline flying 705 turboprops, but waaaaaay better investment to my future than sit in thompson/pickle/red lake hauling ass with no motivation and no chance of getting on a plane for god knows when. This old school mentality needs to go away.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I dare say that putting a fresh out of school 20 year old behind a keyboard is a very different thing than putting them behind the controls of an airplane. I'm not sure that the IT industry is an apt comparison to aviation.

I could buy that argument for a single pilot aircraft, or at an operation that promotes/hires incompetent captains. But not where the capability exists to mentor a junior pilot. And I dare say that putting a fresh out of flight school 20 year old who just spent 12 months on the ramp into the right seat is no safer than putting one there who spent only a month on that ramp.

At the end of the day, ramp positions don't exist because every operation is run by a cabal of sadists who are gratified by the drudgery of young pilots. They exist because pilot supply is greater than demand and this has the effect of throttling back times to the flight line.

This is true. It is also true that the inevitable consequence of the supply of labour exceeding demand, almost everywhere it happens, is creeping abuse of the labour supply. I'll have to grant you though - in that way, IT is quite different; the demand for labour far exceeds the supply of it.

If there were regular probationary periods for junior pilots, say around three months like every other line of work, before you got to the flight line I would fully support and understand this practice. Hell, even a guarantee of a flight ops position after two years I could somewhat get on board with - at least in that case, the terms of the employment agreement are clearly defined. But not with these 18-24-months-may-be-longer-we-won't-actually-commit-to-anything timelines. It is a lopsided employment arrangement that gives inordinate powers of abuse to a single party by too ephemerally defining the terms of the agreement.

[shimmydampner]

This old school mentality needs to go away.

Why? What mentality? The one where people do what they think is best for them and will give them the best chance at success in a tough industry?
Every year there are x number of entry level flying jobs and probably in the neighbourhood of 5x entry level pilots vying for those jobs. So what's your solution to this perceived ramp problem? Given the reality of these constraints, how would you improve things for everyone? If you can build a better mousetrap, I'm all for it. I just think that until you get to 5x/5 pilots, it's a fantasy.