Aerobatics Training

[PilotDAR]

What's the danger of letting go of the controls in a high AoA situation for 4 seconds?

I think that most any part of a loop is a high AoA situation, particularly the vertical up. 4 seconds of letting go there will end very badly in most types. What I have observed is the most new pilots are uncomfortable pulling enough G to complete a maneuver as intended. Not enough G may not see it through, and then a botched recovery is necessary.

From my limited aerobatic experience, and more comprehensive unusual attitude recovery experience, I have observed that most pilots tend to let the plane fly them in such circumstances. Indeed, some recent testing in a modified Grand Caravan actually required "abandoning" the controls for twenty seconds in high speed and specified conditions of flight, and that was un nerving.

Abandoning the pedals in my taildragger for a second on the runway will result in being off in the weeds for sure.

I agree that in gentle cruise flight, inattention is tolerable (apparently 20 seconds in a Caravan!). Hopefully aerobatic pilots hold themselves to a higher standard of attention, and have the training to know what correct attention should be for maneuvering. From my experience flying airwork in both the Aerobat, and a regular 150, they both fly the same, and are equally capable, other than the Aerobat gives the pilot a lot more room to recover after getting it wrong. Aerobatics are a risk, poorly executed, and botched completion/recovery aerobatics are a big risk...

I perceive a risk of tailslide with an incomplete loop, or other maneuvers where the plane is pointed vertically, and the next element delayed too long. When I was a new PPL, my instructor took me in the school Citabria. I was poorly prepared for the aerobatics which we did that day, and in hind sight, think of that "training" to be more detrimental than beneficial to my piloting attitude. Later in life, I was trained by an aerobatic pilot who did have appropriate experience (and it was only an Aerobat).

But as I have said, I heartily encourage competent aerobatic experience for all pilots, just for awareness, and self confidence for unusual attitude recovery.

[digits_]

I perceive a risk of tailslide with an incomplete loop, or other maneuvers where the plane is pointed vertically, and the next element delayed too long.

I find it quite hard to even intentionally get my plane in a tailslide. Other types may of course be very different, but the plane will likely have a tendency to drop the nose forward, backwards or sideways, after which the recovery is quite intuitive to pull up. Or it might start a torque roll, in which case you have to close the throttle, but that's also something one would (hopefully) do when diving nose down unexpectedly.

I think that most any part of a loop is a high AoA situation, particularly the vertical up. 4 seconds of letting go there will end very badly in most types. What I have observed is the most new pilots are uncomfortable pulling enough G to complete a maneuver as intended. Not enough G may not see it through, and then a botched recovery is necessary.

If you are not pulling enough G in a loop, it would likely not be a high AoA situation.
Note that a tailslide starts out with a (near) zero angle of attack (when flying straight up).


On an semi-related note, does anyone here have a reference to an accident caused by a self taught aerobatic pilot? There are plenty of "watch this", spur of the moment kind of accidents, often in non aerobatic airplanes. But I can't find any in which a prepared pilot tried out some aerobatic figures in an aerobatic airplane and crashed or damaged the plane.

[PilotDAR]

But I can't find any in which a prepared pilot tried out some aerobatic figures in an aerobatic airplane and crashed or damaged the plane.

Well, there have been a few airshow accidents, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here. I suspect that student of aerobatics, who actually has solo access to an aerobatic airplane is off to a good start. Competent instruction would still be very wise.

On the other hand, I can think of numerous events of non aerobatic type planes, in which attempted aerobatics resulted in overstress damage. I'm also aware of a non aerobatic airplane which was well over sped during a muffed roll.

If you are not pulling enough G in a loop, it would likely not be a high AoA situation.
Note that a tailslide starts out with a (near) zero angle of attack (when flying straight up).

That's my point, poorly trained pilot attempts a loop, bails out (figuratively) on the near vertical, and hopes for the best, rather than pull the required G to complete the maneuver. A tail slid becomes a very big risk. Yes, the AoA goes to zero pretty fast, as does the airspeed. For the limited aerobatic training I have received, from three different airshow qualified aerobatic pilots, an important part is to know the maneuver, enter it, and fly it through as planned - to prevent an excursion into over/backward speed, or over stress risk.

Not being an aerobatic instructor, I make no claim about being able to train a pilot, while including the required margins of not only safety, but prevention of pointing the plane toward exceedances. I know that when I have had to spin test non spin approved types, I install a G meter for the testing, so I know what G I can pull to prevent an overspeed. In the Caravan, more than 2 G was required to prevent exceeding Vne in the resulting dive. A few other types I have spun were pretty slippery too. Without the G meter, and discipline to pull the required G, I would have oversped the plane. A student of aerobatics may be able to read not to overspeed, by pulling G, but would first time solo at this be the most safe approach?

[CensoredLF]

> A prepared pilot on a nice day with plenty of altitude in a proper aerobatic airplane should be able to fly a loop and a roll
> without overstressing the airplane if he wishes to do so.

With my massive amount of acrobatic experience, 6 hours, I would like to comment on the above. My first loop, entry, speed, engine and attitude were excellent and then we got inverted. Wow this is cool, I like this, I think to myself. Then I hear in my headset, very softly, "Dave, engine down, pull back gently, fly the plane". And then we finished my first loop, lol. Harv said he deliberately let me fly 2-3 seconds inverted so I could enjoy it.

What happens if he is not there my first time? Do I recognize, realize and react properly? Or do I fsck up, over-react or mis-react?

Now, after my 6 hours, I taught myself wingovers. Then I bought an hour of (not the best) instructor's time and learned how to fly them properly.

Apart from that, for a beginner, the savings in gas will pay for the first 5-10 hours of instructors time. Or as swervin says, get the spin training. Me, once I had both, I would go try something stupid, safely

YMMV
CLF

[digits_]

I noticed quite a few posts talking about dangers of doing a loop when new to aerobatics. Note that I never suggested doing a loop as your first exercise. I wrote to start out from some kind of roll, and work from there, as you get more comfortable flying inverted.

[Bede]

Digits,
I think the biggest issue is not that you taught yourself aerobatics, its that you've vigorously encouraged others to do the same.

I've taught myself to do a lot of things in airplanes, often by necessity. (Not many people competent to fly skis or fly strange types.) I never recommend that approach to others.

[PilotDAR]

I wrote to start out from some kind of roll, and work from there

Considering improving reaction times, and precision in flying through the maneuver as learning goes on, I think that a loop is easier to master safely than a roll in the early stages of learning. My reason for saying this is that in the inverted portion of the loop, you're going rather slowly, so pulling through for recovery naturally works out, with some margin below Vne in the resulting dive. When inverted in the roll, you've already got quite a bit of speed on, and if you muff the roll, or mistakenly pull through from the inverted, exceeding Vne is a greater risk.

Yes, I too have trained myself some things in airplanes, and checked myself out on odd types when there was no option. But, when there was an option, I sought training....

[photofly]

Digits,
I think the biggest issue is not that you taught yourself aerobatics, its that you've vigorously encouraged others to do the same.

I've taught myself to do a lot of things in airplanes, often by necessity. (Not many people competent to fly skis or fly strange types.) I never recommend that approach to others.

“Vigorously” might be a bit strong.

I’m not a big fan of “it’s ok for me to teach myself this, but not for you to do the same”. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

[digits_]

Digits,
I think the biggest issue is not that you taught yourself aerobatics, its that you've vigorously encouraged others to do the same.

I'm not encouraging anyone to do this. I'm defending it as a legal option that can be done safely. If there is any doubt in your mind about this approach, don't do it and get dual training. I don't think it's right though to describe people who do choose the self-taught approach as 'fools'.

I've taught myself to do a lot of things in airplanes, often by necessity. (Not many people competent to fly skis or fly strange types.) I never recommend that approach to others.

If someone would call you a fool for doing so, would you tell them how it could be done safely according to you, or would you keep quiet and keep that knowledge secret from others?

Nobody is unique. If you felt the need to teach yourself ski flying, then I'm sure there are others. If one would be called a fool for researching such a plan, chances are they would go ahead with the plan without asking for more info.

[digits_]

Yes, I too have trained myself some things in airplanes, and checked myself out on odd types when there was no option. But, when there was an option, I sought training....

You have to admit there is some kind of irony in there: checking yourself out in odd types -which are generally higher risk and might have odd behaviours-, is ok because there is no other option, yet checking yourself out in a more common type would not be ok becuase there is dual training available?

[PilotDAR]

I agree, doing "new" things in airplanes can increase risk, and flying airplanes new to you similarly can increase risk. So I do try to no do both at once . For all the times I have flight tested a plane with a modification on it, I was, to some degree, flying a plane which no one had flown before (and similarly, with some post maintenance check flights I've done, though expecting it less!). So I read the flight manual, fly with conservatism, and ease into what the plane can do.

Some aerobatics cannot be eased into. For both a loop and a roll, once you enter it, you'd better finish it decently well, or it's going to be unsafe. I found that spins can be eased into. First, by spinning the unmodified plane, then by spinning the modified plane at forward C of G, and not holding it in for the required turn, until I liked the way it recovered from an in and out. Then finally, when I'm feeling confident, the Aft C of G spins, which can very very attention getting.

I don't leap to assume that all planes are easily flyable without training, however, for all certified planes, at certification, the authority did find that flying it through all the requirements did not require unusual pilot skill nor attention. That said, for some of the planes I have flown, I'm thinking that the authority's test pilots back in the day were pretty skilled!

[digits_]

For both a loop and a roll, once you enter it, you'd better finish it decently well, or it's going to be unsafe.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...

[PilotDAR]

Okay, perhaps I have something to learn about loops and rolls. I have not thought of either as a maneuver from which there could be a safe mid point exit. But, I'm not the most experienced aerobatic pilot either, so I'm happy to defer to others....

[digits_]

For a loop the easiest abort/exit would be to roll upright again somewhere in the top half. There are a few competitive maneuvers that add an extra figure at the top of the loop. A roll or snap roll for example. When practicing that, I've often ran out of energy. Usually the nose falls down with some wing drop, sometimes a couple of turns in a spin or a torque roll is the consequence. You are so low on energy if that happens that there is plenty if time to react.

Aborting a roll is a bit trickier because it is a very basic exercise (although hard to fly perfectly). I found it a good exercise to start, because you can fully commit to full aileron and you are, realistically, guaranteed to end back right way up. So you start by climbing and stabilizing the plane, and then full aileron. The more difficult part for the loop is that you need to adjust the pressure on the stick, as full up elevator is usually too much. You generally have to adjust to complete the loop.

[PilotDAR]

Agreed Digits. That said, having only flown low power aerobatic planes, I can say that rolling off the top of the loop in an Aerobat takes a lot more skill and timing, than simply finishing it properly! There's not a lot of aileron authority left as you relax the pitch to a G or less over the top! I have tried a few times!

Yes, if you keep the roll going around on a decent horizontal axis, you can end up where you started, but if you start down by mistake, it'll get messy!

Perhaps we are discussing this from a "beyond beginner skill" level....

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Okay, perhaps I have something to learn about loops and rolls. I have not thought of either as a maneuver from which there could be a safe mid point exit. But, I'm not the most experienced aerobatic pilot either, so I'm happy to defer to others....

Well, sure there is. An immelmann or a split-S would be relevant examples, no?

[digits_]

That said, having only flown low power aerobatic planes, I can say that rolling off the top of the loop in an Aerobat takes a lot more skill and timing, than simply finishing it properly!

Oh I can imagine. And it probably takes you 20 minutes to climb to an altitude where you can safely practice the first loops as well

[PilotDAR]

Yeah.... it takes 20 minutes to do most anything in a 150! Though I can fill the tanks in mine in less than that , and it's the faster of my two planes

[tsgarp]

Still a bad idea.

I’ve read books, have lots of experience and have taught myself plenty in aviation. I’d love to do aerobatics but I still won’t do aerobatics without instruction first.

As is your right. Nothing wrong with that.

I was in a plane (not as PIC) and the owner goes, “should we do a roll?” We end up over stressing by 0.2 G. No damage but it put a healthy respect into me. I thought it was a pretty nice roll - it wasn’t.

What type of airplane? What were the g limits?

The way you describe it, it doesn't sound like the owner really read up on aerobatic manoeuvres, or was really prepared to do any such exercises during the flight. If you decide on a whim to roll or loop, you'll probably have a bad time.

I know another guy who tried a roll. He panicked and split s’d out ripping a bunch of rivets out of the wing.

Yup. Panick is not good:

To address your concerns: overstressing an aerobatic airplane during your first few exercises is unlikely, assuming you read some books and don't panic. You need quite a bit of control inputs to pull over (arbitrary number) 6G intentionally. The inverted spin 'danger' highly depends on your airplane type. Before you practice exercises where this is a realistic concern, just go up and do some intentional inverted spins. If you read up on those, and don't panic, it shouldn't be a big deal.

Also doesn't sound like he was prepared.
Did these accidents happen in an aerobatic airplane?

And I know a third guy who died after a structural failure in an aerobatic plane (Scott Manning-BD-5). Didn’t know him well but it still sucked.

But hey, as long as you read some books and have enough altitude, you should be fine....

What caused the structural failure? If your wing falls of during straight and level flight, you won't be fine either, even though you should have been.

Plenty of well trained pilots have died and will die in a variety of accidents. No PPL student is fully prepared for every emergency they could encounter during their first solo. Yet we send them solo, because there is no realistic expectation for them to encounter something they shouldn't be able to handle.

A prepared pilot on a nice day with plenty of altitude in a proper aerobatic airplane should be able to fly a loop and a roll without overstressing the airplane if he wishes to do so.

If a pilot thinks he will be able to do that, he will be right.
If a pilot thinks he won't be able to do that, he will also be right.

Digits, speaking as an aerobatic instructor, a regular instructor and a high time pilot on everything from taildraggers to high performance single turbines to transport category aircraft; your advice on this thread is bad to the point of being criminally negligent. You are going to get someone killed. If you keep going like you are going Joe ought to cancel you.

[digits_]

Digits, speaking as an aerobatic instructor, a regular instructor and a high time pilot on everything from taildraggers to high performance single turbines to transport category aircraft; your advice on this thread is bad to the point of being criminally negligent. You are going to get someone killed. If you keep going like you are going Joe ought to cancel you.

Right.

I fail to see how your high performance single turbines or transport category aircraft experience is relevant. But nice flex! (Unless you flew aerobatics in them, then I retract that statement)

It's drama like this that prevents open discussion about teaching yourself aerobatics. The pilot I bought my plane from taught himself. There are many others. Seems like it's a dirty little secret that can't be discussed and must be taboo.

It's legal and it's possible. Instead of shooting the messenger, you could use your experience to explain the dangers, as others have done. Silencing someone because they dared to do something you disagree with, or because they point out to other people that there is an aerobatic option they might not have been aware of, is quite disturbing really. Is that something you teach your students? Or how you deal with your crew members?

[youhavecontrol]

I haven't read this entire thread, but I will say that aerobatics need to be respected. They're super fun, absolutely, but just like how I scared myself pushing my motorcycle faster and faster, I don't trust myself to do much aerobatics. I knew 4 aerobatic pilots that are dead now. One of them was a close friend who was a professional in the business for decades. When I was younger I wanted to get into airshows, but now not so much. There's a rush of adrenaline you get addicted to when you push yourself in a high performance airplane. It would most likely kill me after a while and I recognize that. You could teach yourself to fly aerobatics maneuvers, but can you teach yourself your limits without crossing them?

[Squaretail]

Digits, speaking as an aerobatic instructor, a regular instructor and a high time pilot on everything from taildraggers to high performance single turbines to transport category aircraft; your advice on this thread is bad to the point of being criminally negligent. You are going to get someone killed. If you keep going like you are going Joe ought to cancel you.

That’s a bit of an over reaction. I doubt anyone is out there reading this forum changed their minds on whether they could self teach themselves aerobatics. The guys who are going to do it, were already going to do it. Like lots of things with airplanes. In person advice doesn’t dissuade guys from doing stuff, or convince them to, an Internet forum doesn’t have a hope in hell.

Now while I have had the benefit of getting formal instruction, aerobatics I just didn’t find THAT hard, and I’m not that smart of a student.Like lots of things in aviation, and to be frank, the rest of the world. I would even go as far to say that of flying things to learn on your own, it’s not even the most dangerous. Some manoeuvres are more difficult than others, especially those with negative g. Loops are easy if you are somewhat cognizant of energy management.

Arguably, we just don’t know how many self taught aerobatic pilots there are out there. It certainly isn’t prohibited by law, and being fully aware of how legal doesn’t equate to safe, I have a hard time believing if this was so hazardous of an activity, that our regulator wouldn’t be all over it, like say, night flying. I would tend to agree that untrained night flying is a bigger hazard - and know way more fools that came to grief not respecting that hazard.

All I would say about the subject is get instruction. If you want to do it without, at least do it in a proper aircraft, and don’t take some unwitting layman with you if you do. Make sure your life insurance is up to date.

Remember, Bob Hoover was self taught in aerobatics. For some, it’s maybe just another part of flying. I don’t recommend it, but I’m not going to condemn it.

[PilotDAR]

If you want to do it without, at least do it in a proper aircraft...................... Bob Hoover was self taught in aerobatics.

Fair statements. Bob Hoover most likely taught himself aerobatics in piston fighters, which are capable of the maneuvers, and able to withstand the errors of learning. Depending upon the intended maneuver, there are lots of GA planes which are the improper aircraft to even perform the maneuver, let alone attempt to self train in it. They either lack the capability at all, or have the capability for the maneuver, if well flown, but not the excess capability if it's botched.

For a certified GA plane, the limitations placard will give you a good idea. I opine that it is foolish for a pilot to attempt to self teach aerobatic maneuvers which are not listed as permitted on the limitations placard of the airplane. The maneuver being listed gives confidence that there is some room for learning error and there may be a flight manual description of how to enter, and recommended entry speeds.

But, even more simply, if the plane does not have an installed G meter, it's probably not intended for aerobatics. I have found it odd that just about every GA plane I have ever flown states G values as operating limitations, and yet there is no G meter installed so the pilot could know what they're pulling.

Airplanes which were not manufactured with the intent of being aerobatics capable often would not have a margin to Vne, to allow a botched recovery to be carried out, and remain within Vne. Note that the lowly 152 has a Vne of 149 knots, but as the Aerobat version has a Vne of 172 knots - the extra speed margin to botch a recovery. I have never exceeded the 149 knot Vne of a regular 152 while flying aerobatics in the Aerobat, which tells me that the aeorbatics can be flown within the limits of the regular 152, as long as they're somewhat well flown.

When I have had to spin test modified non spin certified GA types, I have installed a G meter for those flights - so I knew what I was pulling, and could later show what I have pulled (to show that I had not overstressed it). On several flights, I was very happy I had installed it, as I had to pull as much as 2.5 G to assure that I stayed within Vne. Without the pull, measured by the G meter, I would have blasted through Vne. Let alone the basis plane, I often had a mod installed which had no business going that fast!

I'm not completely adverse to cautious, planned, researched self teaching, in a capable airplane, within it's limitations, but it's not what I would recommend to a friend either. Use the right plane, and get some training in it.... (advice which applies to a lot of new skills flying planes!)

[CL-Skadoo!]

If you want to do it without, at least do it in a proper aircraft...................... Bob Hoover was self taught in aerobatics.

Military aviators do not receive aerobatic training? As naturally gifted and hard working as he indeed was, I'm not ready to believe he just flew straight out of the womb knife edge and went straight into a half cuban 8.

Skill, work ethic, attitude and training. Don't skimp on any one of them.

[digits_]

For a certified GA plane, the limitations placard will give you a good idea. I opine that it is foolish for a pilot to attempt to self teach aerobatic maneuvers which are not listed as permitted on the limitations placard of the airplane. The maneuver being listed gives confidence that there is some room for learning error and there may be a flight manual description of how to enter, and recommended entry speeds.

That implies that every airshow pilot and every competition aerobatic pilot is acting foolish?