ACPA MEC

[RippleRock]

The ACPA turd needs to be passed. This Membership has a fatal case of constipation. We're going septic.

Every vestige of ACPA needs exercising. There is not one redeeming aspect of what can only be described as a "yellow mess".

Anyone ever notice that when dealing with any issue, a rep would simply say "call me". Why? So they couldn't be held accountable for anything that was said to a member. No written record, no email to quote, nothing to show anyone. It is the ACPA way.

Accountability = zero. Transparency = zero. That means they aren't working for you, and they are hiding their agenda.

The YVR, YWG and YUL base chairs need to go back on the line and reconnect with those they've shafted. They have some explaining to do.

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

Seeing the disgraced former Chair posting super toxic shit on the AC forum just makes me shake my head. This person was our leader for three years! Everything that's happened from the TL debacle, the split MEC and him going after certain committee members etc that didn't fall in line is all making sense. I commend anyone who managed to stick out his toxic leadership and made it to the other side. Holy @#$! what a joke. It's embarrassing to see his posts now on the AC forum.

[rudder]

The ACPA turd needs to be passed. This Membership has a fatal case of constipation. We're going septic.

Every vestige of ACPA needs exercising. There is not one redeeming aspect of what can only be described as a "yellow mess".

Anyone ever notice that when dealing with any issue, a rep would simply say "call me". Why? So they couldn't be held accountable for anything that was said to a member. No written record, no email to quote, nothing to show anyone. It is the ACPA way.

Accountability = zero. Transparency = zero. That means they aren't working for you, and they are hiding their agenda.

The YVR, YWG and YUL base chairs need to go back on the line and reconnect with those they've shafted. They have some explaining to do.

How much will you have to pay RG is severance? Unions don’t need CEO’s.

[RippleRock]

Unions don't need CEO's. That's a fact. Ironic, right?

No clue what backroom deal the MEC signed him to. Likely very costly. He has been next to useless, just like the last one.

Maybe dip into our --equally useless-- strike fund and send him packing with our cash.

It would be very sobering if someone would put a dollar figure to ACPA's follies over the last 20 years. This ridiculous "CEO experiment" would likely fall well into the 7 figure column. I think the beneficiary list of those who took from our dues and capital over the last 20 years would be insanely long.

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

Unions don't need CEO's. That's a fact. Ironic, right?

No clue what backroom deal the MEC signed him to. Likely very costly. He has been next to useless, just like the last one.

Maybe dip into our --equally useless-- strike fund and send him packing with our cash.

It would be very sobering if someone would put a dollar figure to ACPA's follies over the last 20 years. I think the beneficiary list of those who took from our dues and capital would be insanely long.

Our CEO makes more than our top paid pilots. And a lot of our regular staff make more than our first few years payscale for pilots. That's a joke. No wonder they are all so against ALPA. They want to protect what they have. At the cost of our membership

[Ratherbe]

ACPA doesn’t record votes. Even in the minutes. Crazy right?

The lead up to the TA1 fiasco also had a 50/50 split on the MEC with the chair breaking ties a lot.

But unless you start digging. You would never know.

Or I guess you could forget about actually digging and just make up “facts” to support your position.

If I remember there were 6 vs 4 back then so the Chair wouldn’t have needed to vote. I really don’t get the whole recorded vote thing to be honest. Will that be the magic cure for all that is lacking or will it just make the whole process more political? Seems to me that a better decision making process and far better communication is required instead. That’s the Chair’s job.

Every democracy on the planet has recorded votes. Without recorded votes there is no transparency. It is similar to why an independent press is a fundamental aspect of democracy.

Without transparency there is no accountability. Without accountability things often go bad.

Without transparency the people are not really voting their will. They are guessing. The electorate is left to vote blind.

My recollection is that the someone voted for themselves to become chair and the voting swung from 5/5 to 6/4.

But it was 10 years ago now so it is entirely possible my memory has failed me.

Without good communication there is no accountability despite whatever voting processes are used. Clear and honest communication can provide transparency with or without recorded votes.

Every democracy has recorded votes? Yes of course they also have voice or a show of hands vote, secret ballot votes, and general consent. I’ve been to quite a few non pilot meetings, like condo owners for example, and have never seen a recorded vote. It’s good communication we need explaining the pros and cons and why the MEC voted the way they did. This has been sorely lacking.

Btw, an MEC Chair candidate cannot vote for themselves. None of them would be in the room when the ballots are cast.

[Ratherbe]

Unions don't need CEO's. That's a fact. Ironic, right?

No clue what backroom deal the MEC signed him to. Likely very costly. He has been next to useless, just like the last one.

Maybe dip into our --equally useless-- strike fund and send him packing with our cash.

It would be very sobering if someone would put a dollar figure to ACPA's follies over the last 20 years. This ridiculous "CEO experiment" would likely fall well into the 7 figure column. I think the beneficiary list of those who took from our dues and capital over the last 20 years would be insanely long.

As I’m sure you know the recommendation to have CEO oversight came from the FOS audit. It’s available on the ACPA website if you search for negotiations audit. It’s a damning report that highlights how dysfunctional everyone had become and how much was lost because of it.

Personal attacks against a highly respected former AC pilot suggests that you consider his sage advice as a threat to your own opinions.

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

As I’m sure you know the recommendation to have CEO oversight came from the FOS audit. It’s available on the ACPA website if you search for negotiations audit. It’s a damning report that highlights how dysfunctional everyone had become and how much was lost because of it.

Personal attacks against a highly respected former AC pilot suggests that you consider his sage advice as a threat to your own opinions.

Former pilot who was a union man, then flipped to management like virtually all other past union leaders. Oh, and wasn't he walked out of the door by AC too? With a golden parachute I'm sure. Now he gets paid $300k a year to to what? I couldn't tell you what benefit we have by him being here, he has been largely silent on national government matters, and seems to be meddling a wee bit too much with the MEC. He is not elected, he is not a pilot anymore. His job is to run the association and oversee the staff, and I'm not even sure he does a good job doing that. I'll happily trade him away for membership in another union that starts with an A. The recommendations from the audit also said to join ALPA, and that ACPA is next to impossible to fix. How many years on now has it been and we still have people yelling and screaming on the forum false truths and lies (and our own elected members as well in a certain eastern base) about ALPA? Stoking fear of the ALPA "boogeyman" coming to take away your seniority and funnel your dues to America. Give me a fucking break.

Btw, an MEC Chair candidate cannot vote for themselves. None of them would be in the room when the ballots are cast.

Yes an MEC Chair candidate can very much vote for themselves. You clearly have no idea how our association operates, or any knowledge of the ACPA constitution. The only thing a current MEC Chair can not do, if they are running again, is Chair the meeting. They get a vote, just like everyone else and their vote can be for themselves.

Thankfully MM left and we are all better off for it. Come spring time if he was still around and running again, I'm sure if it was a 5/5 tie he would have had no problem voting for himself as King.

[Ratherbe]

I stand corrected. You’re right a MEC Chair candidate can vote for himself. The Constitution doesn’t prevent this nor does Robert’s Rules of Order. However, RRO offers caution in voting where there is a personal interest. I just can’t believe anyone would vote for themselves and I have never heard of it happening in the past.

These have been weird times, hopefully they’re coming to an end.

[imjustlurking]

Why does it seem like every Air Canada pilot is afraid of ALPA?

Take a look at the airlines in Canada that are represented by ALPA. Do you see how the pilots are being treated better than you?

Even CargoJet pilots are finally able to breathe now that they have a union that is advocating for the pilots and not the company.

[Loon-A-Tic]

I think the concept of "safety in numbers" and the opportunity to bring almost every significantly sized 705 operation under one roof would/could/should be extremely appealing. It's been discussed; pontificated many, many time on this very site how Canadian pilots need to be one cohesive entity, isn't now the chance.

Isn't this the chance to set the bar higher, not the continuous lowering that has plagued Canadian aviation historically.

[Hangry]

Why does it seem like every Air Canada pilot is afraid of ALPA?

Take a look at the airlines in Canada that are represented by ALPA. Do you see how the pilots are being treated better than you?

Even CargoJet pilots are finally able to breathe now that they have a union that is advocating for the pilots and not the company.

Again. And again. I saw how ALPA helped the WJ pilot group when Swoop was created. No thanks!

It’s the people. Not the banner.

WJ pilots are treated better than AC pilots?

You’ll forgive me if I find an Encore pilot telling me how bad I have it laughable.

[rudder]

It’s the people. Not the banner.

Proably true. But also the representational structure, resources, experience, and the ability to manage situations both adverse and advantageous.

Just take a look at the latest Morningstar contract (ALPA). Product of arbitration. Starting pay that should embarrass AC (and others). Solid work rules and overtime premiums. Great non-taxable benefits (per diem/uniform). Pension still weak.

You have to know how to set the rules of engagement. Then you need to know how to maximize return within those rules.

Seems that the Morningstar pilots figured it out.

[GTFA]

Why does it seem like every Air Canada pilot is afraid of ALPA?

Take a look at the airlines in Canada that are represented by ALPA. Do you see how the pilots are being treated better than you?
Even CargoJet pilots are finally able to breathe now that they have a union that is advocating for the pilots and not the company.

Again. And again. I saw how ALPA helped the WJ pilot group when Swoop was created. No thanks!
It’s the people. Not the banner.
WJ pilots are treated better than AC pilots?
You’ll forgive me if I find an Encore pilot telling me how bad I have it laughable.

For the gajillionth time:
This was/is not an ALPA problem. This is a WJ pilots problem. ALPA provides the structure, the members provide the behaviour.

[altiplano]

<sarcasm font>

What?

Effective governance?

Comprehensive contract and negots support?

World wide expertise for direct member assistance?

Why would I want that?

Instead I've got guys that are best friends that go on date nights with management and even go join them across the table from time to time... I've got LRD that says we should never fight because we'll never win from his association paid Toronto condo... that's the authentic representation I'm looking for... I've got a contract and pay rates that have been pushing the bar lower for over a decade... I've got a worse lifestyle, a worse paycheque, and worse prospects than those before me... I work more, pay for more of my benefits,have seniority bypassed regularly, equipment bids and RIRs gerrymandered, and have multiple pay scales to try to sort out and promises of more lower scales to come!

</sarcasm font>

Get fuckin with it and open your eyes about where we are, where we were, and where we were headed... it's an embarrassment.

You want to compare a first contract at an LCC with a 85 year market leader, network, global alliance legacy airline? WTF? wake up.

I like to compare what ALPA has done for the membership at our major JV, ++, codeshare, alliance partner whose market we are a major player in and whose passengers we routinely carry. ie. United. Looks like ALPA has done right by them.

Or maybe we should just hire the United or Delta NC to come up and do a contract for us... I'd be happy with that as a start... Or should we send in the guy again that got the least votes in the most recent election? Maybe he can make best fit for blockholders too?

[imjustlurking]

Why does it seem like every Air Canada pilot is afraid of ALPA?

Take a look at the airlines in Canada that are represented by ALPA. Do you see how the pilots are being treated better than you?

Even CargoJet pilots are finally able to breathe now that they have a union that is advocating for the pilots and not the company.

Again. And again. I saw how ALPA helped the WJ pilot group when Swoop was created. No thanks!

It’s the people. Not the banner.

WJ pilots are treated better than AC pilots?

You’ll forgive me if I find an Encore pilot telling me how bad I have it laughable.

I'm sorry, how many Air Canada pilots are still on the street?

[Hangry]

<sarcasm font>

What?

Effective governance?

Comprehensive contract and negots support?

World wide expertise for direct member assistance?

Why would I want that?

Instead I've got guys that are best friends that go on date nights with management and even go join them across the table from time to time... I've got LRD that says we should never fight because we'll never win from his association paid Toronto condo... that's the authentic representation I'm looking for... I've got a contract and pay rates that have been pushing the bar lower for over a decade... I've got a worse lifestyle, a worse paycheque, and worse prospects than those before me... I work more, pay for more of my benefits,have seniority bypassed regularly, equipment bids and RIRs gerrymandered, and have multiple pay scales to try to sort out and promises of more lower scales to come!

</sarcasm font>

Get fuckin with it and open your eyes about where we are, where we were, and where we were headed... it's an embarrassment.

You want to compare a first contract at an LCC with a 85 year market leader, network, global alliance legacy airline? WTF? wake up.

I like to compare what ALPA has done for the membership at our major JV, ++, codeshare, alliance partner whose market we are a major player in and whose passengers we routinely carry. ie. United. Looks like ALPA has done right by them.

Or maybe we should just hire the United or Delta NC to come up and do a contract for us... I'd be happy with that as a start... Or should we send in the guy again that got the least votes in the most recent election? Maybe he can make best fit for blockholders too?

All of that sounds real good. All of that is totally within reach with ACPA or ALPA with the right people.

I just don’t think the answer to all our woes is ALPA. But I would love to be proven wrong.

[a220hereicome]

I've got LRD that says we should never fight because we'll never win from his association paid Toronto condo...

Care to elaborate on that one? I'm not aware of anyone in ACPA, LRD or otherwise, getting any kind of housing allowance.

[Transition9er2]

I've got LRD that says we should never fight because we'll never win from his association paid Toronto condo...

Care to elaborate on that one? I'm not aware of anyone in ACPA, LRD or otherwise, getting any kind of housing allowance.

Seriously, from that entire post “this” is what you chose to focus on?

I’ve read some of your posts lately and your credibility is really coming into question. Perhaps “less” might be more with trying to get your point across.

T.

[altiplano]

<sarcasm font>

What?

Effective governance?

Comprehensive contract and negots support?

World wide expertise for direct member assistance?

Why would I want that?

Instead I've got guys that are best friends that go on date nights with management and even go join them across the table from time to time... I've got LRD that says we should never fight because we'll never win from his association paid Toronto condo... that's the authentic representation I'm looking for... I've got a contract and pay rates that have been pushing the bar lower for over a decade... I've got a worse lifestyle, a worse paycheque, and worse prospects than those before me... I work more, pay for more of my benefits,have seniority bypassed regularly, equipment bids and RIRs gerrymandered, and have multiple pay scales to try to sort out and promises of more lower scales to come!

</sarcasm font>

Get fuckin with it and open your eyes about where we are, where we were, and where we were headed... it's an embarrassment.

You want to compare a first contract at an LCC with a 85 year market leader, network, global alliance legacy airline? WTF? wake up.

I like to compare what ALPA has done for the membership at our major JV, ++, codeshare, alliance partner whose market we are a major player in and whose passengers we routinely carry. ie. United. Looks like ALPA has done right by them.

Or maybe we should just hire the United or Delta NC to come up and do a contract for us... I'd be happy with that as a start... Or should we send in the guy again that got the least votes in the most recent election? Maybe he can make best fit for blockholders too?

All of that sounds real good. All of that is totally within reach with ACPA or ALPA with the right people.

I just don’t think the answer to all our woes is ALPA. But I would love to be proven wrong.

It's not a silver bullet, but it's a group we should hear from and decide on once and for all. It would solve a list of issues we have, governance, toolbox, advocacy, unity, governance...

Unfortunately I disagree that it's within reach at ACPA, we redid our governance and constitution only a few years ago. We hired expert advisors to help us and then didn't follow any of their recommendations.

The handful of "right" people we had never been pushed out at this point.

The entrenched club that has been running our association, that has been dividing our membership, that has been preying on our differences, that has cozied up to management has to be purged like the impacted fecal matter it is. In my opinion it's going to take a fresh start to achieve that.

Time is ticking... We deserve a new contract with the gap between our REAL comparators closed in 2023.

[altiplano]

I've got LRD that says we should never fight because we'll never win from his association paid Toronto condo...

Care to elaborate on that one? I'm not aware of anyone in ACPA, LRD or otherwise, getting any kind of housing allowance.

Housing allowances, commuting allowances, paid J tickets, expensive restaurants, fine wines, the list is extensive.... I wonder how much we've spent on in the home office equipment for our now stay at home association crew.... and how much is that "Mad Men" high style designer HQ that sits empty costing us? I mean empty other than the cellar of dry powder we're sitting on...

ACPA spends money on itself, not on representing members.

When was the last contract comparison?

Where's the grievance on vacation buybacks?

Where's the negots prep and member education?

[RippleRock]

ACPA stopped working for the Membership long ago.

The real problem is, they have allowed us to fall so far and become so divided that anything resembling meaningful gains in 2024 will be impossible. I'm not one bit hopeful. Meaningful gains are had by meaningful groups. We lost our meaning and any concept of relevance from poor contract custodianship. We deviate off contract with MOA's with such regularity that it means nothing. Loose language --that a truck-- could be driven through, has pulverized our contract into a --sloppy interpretation manual--

I have no clue what "revision" of the contract we are even on right now.

We have been beaten so badly, and given so much for so long that most of us just want the beatings to stop. We will likely settle for pittance.

[MontrealCanucks]

I've got LRD that says we should never fight because we'll never win from his association paid Toronto condo...

Care to elaborate on that one? I'm not aware of anyone in ACPA, LRD or otherwise, getting any kind of housing allowance.

I'm aware of an entire staff that are working from home, on full pay that were recommending pay cuts to the very people they are paid to represent

While we had a negotiating team that believes that comparing legacy carriers pilots to legacy carriers pilots makes as much sense as comparing pilots pay to flight attendants pay

Despite the fact that indeed North American legacy pilots were actually comparable to each other in recent history

A negotiating team that recommended a deal before finalizing the details. A negotiating team that sold Best Fit as similar to "other airlines" without talking to other airlines

A PBS team that told us we could bid on reserve patterns without being able to bid on them and then sending members tips on how make "pyramids" to get results.

A PBS committee that is more concerned about the "company's coverage requirements" than the actual members it apparently represents

All While having the Chair of the PBS committee & Vice Chair of the Negotiating committee getting the least amount of votes from the membership yet somehow is now the point of contact on "PBSC agreements" and finalizing this fiasco known as Best Fit

Acpa walked into the room with a Scope Violation and walked out with a complete erosion of seniority in awarding flying. The government dropped a gift in terms of fixing 3rd world reserve working conditions with a 10 years contract and the result was an epic diarrhea dump that a professional team is going to have to fix in the future

[Torontomaplelaughs]

You're forgetting negotiating any sort of "sick if required" language when you're on reserve, unbiddable RAP periods, and they couldn't even sort out what is a "red eye"...

Gong show

[dumpsterfire]

So the architects of this dumpster fire think they are going to fix the dumpster fire

Is this for real?

Or are they too daft to see that there is even a dumpster fire?

I guess when you got an unelected guy calling the shots with a guy that got voted in at a base of 50...nothing could be surprising