Air Canada vs WestJet

[bcflyer]

AC currently has one of, if not the worst scheduling rules in the country. While accruing seniority does help the scheduling become more manageable, most people are completely unaware of how long this actually takes. On the narrow body, FO’s take 7-8 years to get a good schedule and Captains take 13-15 years.
Comparing the collective agreements, there are perhaps three articles that AC has has the upper hand with: Pension, Disability, and Sick Leave. All the others WestJet trumps AC.

You are full of crap. Yes the AC scheduling rules leave something to be desired. (Thank you ACPA) However I fly with F/O’s that have 3-4yrs seniority that get all the days off they need and the vacation they want. Is AC perfect? Absolutely not, but to portray it as 7yrs before you get anything you want is false and needs to be called out.

[smooth]

You probably never work for AC correct? I just check each fleet's schedule, and even with some junior FO, it's 12-14 days working on the narrow body. Wide body RP are working less than 14 days and laying over in Rome, Vienna, Lisbon...etc

People are making shit up, in my last company one captain told me flat pay at AC is $40k why would I want to go there?!?!
man people need to update their info

The newest captain on 737 is 2022 hire just FYI

AC currently has one of, if not the worst scheduling rules in the country. While accruing seniority does help the scheduling become more manageable, most people are completely unaware of how long this actually takes. On the narrow body, FO’s take 7-8 years to get a good schedule and Captains take 13-15 years.
Comparing the collective agreements, there are perhaps three articles that AC has has the upper hand with: Pension, Disability, and Sick Leave. All the others WestJet trumps AC.

[fish4life]

You probably never work for AC correct? I just check each fleet's schedule, and even with some junior FO, it's 12-14 days working on the narrow body. Wide body RP are working less than 14 days and laying over in Rome, Vienna, Lisbon...etc

People are making shit up, in my last company one captain told me flat pay at AC is $40k why would I want to go there?!?!
man people need to update their info

The newest captain on 737 is 2022 hire just FYI

AC currently has one of, if not the worst scheduling rules in the country. While accruing seniority does help the scheduling become more manageable, most people are completely unaware of how long this actually takes. On the narrow body, FO’s take 7-8 years to get a good schedule and Captains take 13-15 years.
Comparing the collective agreements, there are perhaps three articles that AC has has the upper hand with: Pension, Disability, and Sick Leave. All the others WestJet trumps AC.

Saying “narrow body” is very general. Right now the aircraft you are on makes a big difference. It definitely seems like 320 and 737 are opposite ends of schedule satisfaction from what I can tell.

[Canadaflyer46]

You probably never work for AC correct? I just check each fleet's schedule, and even with some junior FO, it's 12-14 days working on the narrow body. Wide body RP are working less than 14 days and laying over in Rome, Vienna, Lisbon...etc

People are making shit up, in my last company one captain told me flat pay at AC is $40k why would I want to go there?!?!
man people need to update their info

The newest captain on 737 is 2022 hire just FYI

AC currently has one of, if not the worst scheduling rules in the country. While accruing seniority does help the scheduling become more manageable, most people are completely unaware of how long this actually takes. On the narrow body, FO’s take 7-8 years to get a good schedule and Captains take 13-15 years.
Comparing the collective agreements, there are perhaps three articles that AC has has the upper hand with: Pension, Disability, and Sick Leave. All the others WestJet trumps AC.

Saying “narrow body” is very general. Right now the aircraft you are on makes a big difference. It definitely seems like 320 and 737 are opposite ends of schedule satisfaction from what I can tell.

Something that just struck me that should not be overlooked…at AC you won’t have to spend your entire career crammed into a 737 flight deck.

[Old fella]

Since this is a “ what would you do…..” type question, permit me to pipe in as a non airline pilot. If I wore a much younger man’s clothes but was able to take my curriculum vitae with me(ATPL, 6000+ time, vast majority light turbine multi of course, small c550 time, no 705, little bit of heavy PBY-5A and CL215 and University degree) AC would be my one and only choice. I would work my very hardest to impress if I was given the privilege of an interview. The variety of flying B777,’87, A330 on international routes is the selling point for me, also domestic on the NB fleet for a bit as well but the bigger stuff is my “ go to” reason.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Since this is a “ what would you do…..” type question, permit me to pipe in as a non airline pilot. If I wore a much younger man’s clothes but was able to take my curriculum vitae with me(ATPL, 6000+ time, vast majority light turbine multi of course, small c550 time, no 705, little bit of heavy PBY-5A and CL215 and University degree) AC would be my one and only choice. I would work my very hardest to impress if I was given the privilege of an interview. The variety of flying B777,’87, A330 on international routes is the selling point for me, also domestic on the NB fleet for a bit as well but the bigger stuff is my “ go to” reason.

One thing being overlooked is affordability of housing in AC bases.

[garfield]

If you're a widebody captain on WB at AC or WJ can you afford a house in YYZ or YVR?

[FL030]

If you're a widebody captain on WB at AC or WJ can you afford a house in YYZ or YVR?

Depends on your definition of house really. Fully detached home in a good neighborhood? You better have other sources of income.

[CaptDukeNukem]

If you're a widebody captain on WB at AC or WJ can you afford a house in YYZ or YVR?

Yes and how many years of sacrifice is that gonna cost you?

[Curiousflyer]

I’m not going to speculate on why you would like to intentionally mislead your fellow pilots. Here are the facts as of this summer.

YYZ- 737-FO Optimization and red eyes went up to to top 10%, Date of hire 2015 working 17 days. All blockholders junior to 2013 working 16 or more days.

YYZ- 320-FO Optimization to top 15%, Date of hire 2016 working 18 days with sim. All blockholders junior to 2016 working 16 or more days.

YYZ- 220 - FO Optimization to top 12%, Date of hire 2017 working 17 days with sim. All blockholders junior to 2017 working 16 or more days.


There is a reason why the most junior captain is only a couple years in, because it takes years of seniority to control one’s schedule. If the schedule was good, a CA position would never go so junior.

You probably never work for AC correct? I just check each fleet's schedule, and even with some junior FO, it's 12-14 days working on the narrow body. Wide body RP are working less than 14 days and laying over in Rome, Vienna, Lisbon...etc

People are making shit up, in my last company one captain told me flat pay at AC is $40k why would I want to go there?!?!
man people need to update their info

The newest captain on 737 is 2022 hire just FYI

AC currently has one of, if not the worst scheduling rules in the country. While accruing seniority does help the scheduling become more manageable, most people are completely unaware of how long this actually takes. On the narrow body, FO’s take 7-8 years to get a good schedule and Captains take 13-15 years.
Comparing the collective agreements, there are perhaps three articles that AC has has the upper hand with: Pension, Disability, and Sick Leave. All the others WestJet trumps AC.

[Canpilot7]

I’m not going to speculate on why you would like to intentionally mislead your fellow pilots. Here are the facts as of this summer.

YYZ- 737-FO Optimization and red eyes went up to to top 10%, Date of hire 2015 working 17 days. All blockholders junior to 2013 working 16 or more days.

YYZ- 320-FO Optimization to top 15%, Date of hire 2016 working 18 days with sim. All blockholders junior to 2016 working 16 or more days.

YYZ- 220 - FO Optimization to top 12%, Date of hire 2017 working 17 days with sim. All blockholders junior to 2017 working 16 or more days.


There is a reason why the most junior captain is only a couple years in, because it takes years of seniority to control one’s schedule. If the schedule was good, a CA position would never go so junior.

You probably never work for AC correct? I just check each fleet's schedule, and even with some junior FO, it's 12-14 days working on the narrow body. Wide body RP are working less than 14 days and laying over in Rome, Vienna, Lisbon...etc

People are making shit up, in my last company one captain told me flat pay at AC is $40k why would I want to go there?!?!
man people need to update their info

The newest captain on 737 is 2022 hire just FYI

AC currently has one of, if not the worst scheduling rules in the country. While accruing seniority does help the scheduling become more manageable, most people are completely unaware of how long this actually takes. On the narrow body, FO’s take 7-8 years to get a good schedule and Captains take 13-15 years.
Comparing the collective agreements, there are perhaps three articles that AC has has the upper hand with: Pension, Disability, and Sick Leave. All the others WestJet trumps AC.

I find that this aspect of AC is really glossed over. The schedule there is a nightmare for a lot of the list.

Weekly I have people talk to me about the WestJet captain upgrade times, but the element they miss is the primary driver for that: no one passes up upgrades at westjet like they do at AC. The lifestyle is pretty decent top to bottom at westjet when you compare it to anything bottom half at AC.

Not throwing my hat into either ring here, but something to consider when the music stops and the growth goes away for an extended period. If you're in the bottom chunk of the list for a decade at AC, the lifestyle to pay ratio doesn't look as rosy. Just hope no one gets caught in a "this will go on forever" mindset with the current (and soon to slow) growth.

[flying4dollars]

You probably never work for AC correct? I just check each fleet's schedule, and even with some junior FO, it's 12-14 days working on the narrow body. Wide body RP are working less than 14 days and laying over in Rome, Vienna, Lisbon...etc

People are making shit up, in my last company one captain told me flat pay at AC is $40k why would I want to go there?!?!
man people need to update their info

The newest captain on 737 is 2022 hire just FYI

AC currently has one of, if not the worst scheduling rules in the country. While accruing seniority does help the scheduling become more manageable, most people are completely unaware of how long this actually takes. On the narrow body, FO’s take 7-8 years to get a good schedule and Captains take 13-15 years.
Comparing the collective agreements, there are perhaps three articles that AC has has the upper hand with: Pension, Disability, and Sick Leave. All the others WestJet trumps AC.

Who's doing 12-14???? I'm junior. I'm NB. I'm working 16.

[WillC]

You probably never work for AC correct? I just check each fleet's schedule, and even with some junior FO, it's 12-14 days working on the narrow body. Wide body RP are working less than 14 days and laying over in Rome, Vienna, Lisbon...etc

People are making shit up, in my last company one captain told me flat pay at AC is $40k why would I want to go there?!?!
man people need to update their info

The newest captain on 737 is 2022 hire just FYI

AC currently has one of, if not the worst scheduling rules in the country. While accruing seniority does help the scheduling become more manageable, most people are completely unaware of how long this actually takes. On the narrow body, FO’s take 7-8 years to get a good schedule and Captains take 13-15 years.
Comparing the collective agreements, there are perhaps three articles that AC has has the upper hand with: Pension, Disability, and Sick Leave. All the others WestJet trumps AC.

Who's doing 12-14???? I'm junior. I'm NB. I'm working 16.

Yeah, I am a RP, working 18 days/month, 6 Europe turns, some layovers are just 21 hours... No one is doing less than 14 days.

[CaptDukeNukem]

You probably never work for AC correct? I just check each fleet's schedule, and even with some junior FO, it's 12-14 days working on the narrow body. Wide body RP are working less than 14 days and laying over in Rome, Vienna, Lisbon...etc

People are making shit up, in my last company one captain told me flat pay at AC is $40k why would I want to go there?!?!
man people need to update their info

The newest captain on 737 is 2022 hire just FYI

Who's doing 12-14???? I'm junior. I'm NB. I'm working 16.

Yeah, I am a RP, working 18 days/month, 6 Europe turns, some layovers are just 21 hours... No one is doing less than 14 days.

That must be hard on the body clock. I guess according to TC you’re still acclimated to local time. But sleeping during the day and flying at night plays mind tricks only the devil, or crew planning, can conjure up.

[Aviator12]

As a family man myself I resent your characterization of the situation, you know what 50-60 olds have, grandchildren and years of missed holidays to make up for. Besides, even without grandchildren, my “kids” still came home for Christmas morning ever since they left home. That may change where we go visit them for the holidays but it’s absurd that you think someone who reaches an age doesn’t have a reason to have the holidays off, you’re the selfish one in this situation!
Seniority is what it is, you have none and get nothing, then you get some and someone junior to you resents you for using it, great system!
Sounds like you made a great decision to go to WJ, you would have been miserable in a seniority system

Not really what I was trying to say. I get that in a seniority based position you pay your dues for years and end up hopefully getting what you want later on in your career. And you definitely should in that system.

I’m sure I would have been miserable in a seniority based system. Hence why I chose WJ. I don’t want to wait many years to finally get a schedule that suits my family. No guarantee I’ll even be around by then.

The bidding system at WJ isn’t perfect but I find there are many options with something for everyone. Generally I’ve heard most seem to get what they want. Obviously there will be a few times you won’t get everything you want. As a commuter I bid check in and check out, days off I want and 4-5 day pairings. So far it’s worked out really well for me.

Hopefully this system stays for the long run. It gets me going when I hear a senior coworker who has benefited almost their entire career on a socialized bidding system say they now want a seniority system. Seems a little selfish to me.

[rudder]

As a family man myself I resent your characterization of the situation, you know what 50-60 olds have, grandchildren and years of missed holidays to make up for. Besides, even without grandchildren, my “kids” still came home for Christmas morning ever since they left home. That may change where we go visit them for the holidays but it’s absurd that you think someone who reaches an age doesn’t have a reason to have the holidays off, you’re the selfish one in this situation!
Seniority is what it is, you have none and get nothing, then you get some and someone junior to you resents you for using it, great system!
Sounds like you made a great decision to go to WJ, you would have been miserable in a seniority system

Not really what I was trying to say. I get that in a seniority based position you pay your dues for years and end up hopefully getting what you want later on in your career. And you definitely should in that system.

I’m sure I would have been miserable in a seniority based system. Hence why I chose WJ. I don’t want to wait many years to finally get a schedule that suits my family. No guarantee I’ll even be around by then.

The bidding system at WJ isn’t perfect but I find there are many options with something for everyone. Generally I’ve heard most seem to get what they want. Obviously there will be a few times you won’t get everything you want. As a commuter I bid check in and check out, days off I want and 4-5 day pairings. So far it’s worked out really well for me.

Hopefully this system stays for the long run. It gets me going when I hear a senior coworker who has benefited almost their entire career on a socialized bidding system say they now want a seniority system. Seems a little selfish to me.

Quite often, schedule satisfaction is directly correlated to pairing quality. Bad pairings = bad schedules.

Some airlines/positions fare better than others when it comes to pairings which are also ultimately derived from city pairs and frequency.

[EPR]

If you're a widebody captain on WB at AC or WJ can you afford a house in YYZ or YVR?

Depends what the Court ordered payments are for your ex's and child support! Thanks to the antiquated "Family Court system"..may as well be a 703 Skipper...and live in a van...down by the river!!

[scabbydoo]

The newest captain on 737 is 2022 hire just FYI

No. 2019 as of the 23-04 bid.

[bob99]

You probably never work for AC correct? I just check each fleet's schedule, and even with some junior FO, it's 12-14 days working on the narrow body. Wide body RP are working less than 14 days and laying over in Rome, Vienna, Lisbon...etc

People are making shit up, in my last company one captain told me flat pay at AC is $40k why would I want to go there?!?!
man people need to update their info

The newest captain on 737 is 2022 hire just FYI

AC currently has one of, if not the worst scheduling rules in the country. While accruing seniority does help the scheduling become more manageable, most people are completely unaware of how long this actually takes. On the narrow body, FO’s take 7-8 years to get a good schedule and Captains take 13-15 years.
Comparing the collective agreements, there are perhaps three articles that AC has has the upper hand with: Pension, Disability, and Sick Leave. All the others WestJet trumps AC.

There is so much wrong here.

[Curiousflyer]

To further prove my point, blockhokders 1 and 2 on the YYZ 737 CA list for September, are working 17 and 18 days respectively. Both have 25+ years with AC.

[daedalusx]

To further prove my point, blockhokders 1 and 2 on the YYZ 737 CA list for September, are working 17 and 18 days respectively. Both have 25+ years with AC.

Absolutely disgusting.

[Canpilot7]

To further prove my point, blockhokders 1 and 2 on the YYZ 737 CA list for September, are working 17 and 18 days respectively. Both have 25+ years with AC.

This will just get ignored and the same a Canada "just go to air Canada" chants will keep going like they have in recent years.

Everyone should hope AC pilots get huge quality of life improvements in their next contract. Currently much of the contract is useful for companies pitching "well at least the schedule is better than AC"

[Hysteria]

This forum has been very eye opening for prospective guys like myself.

The consensus seems to be

AC pros:
pension
diversity of work
job security
WB pay?

WJ pros:
SB - better schedule albeit junior/senior
lifestyle
vacation
Alberta bases

This is just from what I've gathered and I'm sure there are far more details. I could be getting this wrong.

I recently saw on another post that reserve at WJ extended from 2017 at YYC? How long does it actually take to get off reserve at YYC/YEG?

[Curiousflyer]

This forum has been very eye opening for prospective guys like myself.

The consensus seems to be

AC pros:
pension
diversity of work
job security
WB pay?

WJ pros:
SB - better schedule albeit junior/senior
lifestyle
vacation
Alberta bases

This is just from what I've gathered and I'm sure there are far more details. I could be getting this wrong.

I recently saw on another post that reserve at WJ extended from 2017 at YYC? How long does it actually take to get off reserve at YYC/YEG?

The AC pensions is only marginally better than WJ. The old DB pension is significantly better however, that is no longer available to new hire pilots at AC. The retirement contributions at WestJet are 10% while AC is 11.5%. WestJet is more versatile while AC is locked into a pension until retirement with more restrictions on withdrawals, beneficiaries, etc.

[780Pilot]

This forum has been very eye opening for prospective guys like myself.

The consensus seems to be

AC pros:
pension
diversity of work
job security
WB pay?

WJ pros:
SB - better schedule albeit junior/senior
lifestyle
vacation
Alberta bases

This is just from what I've gathered and I'm sure there are far more details. I could be getting this wrong.

I recently saw on another post that reserve at WJ extended from 2017 at YYC? How long does it actually take to get off reserve at YYC/YEG?

I’m a new hire in at WJ in YEG. I’ve heard that getting off reserve is not long at all here. Time will tell but I’ve been told it can take as little as less than a year.