ATC / FSS / Arrival / Departure / and all others

[Majesty]

An excellent thread was posted at...

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=13006

I don't want to interfere with that one so I'm starting a new one with a different twist.

Would all of you controllers make it known to all of us pilots just what it is that you like to see (hear). Way back when in my earlier years, I was coached in some way by the FSS and Tower controllers as to what they like and dislike.

Some of the things that I was taught (learned) were that FSS folks are often working many frequencies at many airports and that when I call I should give them the airport and frequency (or FISE and frequency).

A ground controller once told me not to blather on about what I wanted before he was actually talking to me as he was also on the tower frequency and clearing someone to land. Didn't hear a damn thing that I said. Causes congestion.

These are all little things to us pilots, major things to those of you that make it all work.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

[zzjayca]

A pet peeve of mine is when an a/c makes a request to make a request.

eg. "Centre ABC request".

If the request isn't something out of the ordinary, state it. I realize you are getting my attention but all it does is add extra transmissions.

Let's take a look:

1) Centre ABC request.
2) ABC go ahead.
3) Centre ABC request FL350.
4) ABC maintain FL350.
5) Roger ABC leaving FL330 for FL350.

That's five transmissions. Here is how it should go:

1) Centre ABC request FL350.
2) ABC maintain FL350.
3) Roger ABC leaving FL330 for FL350.

Down to three.

Even if I miss the request because I am doing something else, we are still only up to five transmissions. However, by making a request to make a request we will be at a minimum of five every time.

[ninjacrumb]

Here's another good one that annoys the hell out of me. ATC clears an aircraft for an approach. Aircraft acknowledges, then requests the contact. YOU WERE CLEARED FOR AN APPROACH! JUST DO IT. Don't request it.

[ninjacrumb]

Here's another. Do ya actually have to call "level"? In the USA nobody calls level and ATC get all weirded out if you do. I got snapped at with a " I know I see you, I got the radar on" by Chicago center.

I don't know, I find the level call a little archaic in a radar environment. In non radar sure I get it.

I feel myself wanting to start an NavCanada rant, but I will resist.

[Canus Chinookus]

zzjayca, here's how it usually happens, and here's the reason why we 'wake up' ATC with a 'request:

1) Center ABC request FL350.
2) Aircraft Calling Center say again?
3) Center ABC requ****SCREEEEEEEEEEECH*****
4) CDE standby: BREAK: ABC you were stepped on by another aircraft, say again?
5) Center ABC request FL350.
6) ABC maintain FL350.
7) Roger ABC leaving FL330 for FL350.



Ninjacrumb, I believe it's law in canada(but apparently not in yyz) to call level. In the US is isn't(in a radar environment anyway).

[planett]

ninjacrumb,

A clearance for an approach does not constitute a clearance for a contact approach, this must be requested by the pilot before it's approved. TC AIM pg 235, 236...

However, lots of controllers read our minds and grant us the contact even before we ask for it. Also lots of FSS guys will not query us as to whether we actually cleared for a contact when we do one after forgetting the manditory radio exchange above. (But some do) In another era this was known as common sense.

[Unable Due Traffic]

I feel myself wanting to start an NavCanada rant, but I will resist.

Don't hold it in...... You can't resist....... You must rant on NavCan.....

I must be bored .......

[Capt]

ninjacrumb,
I think you better start reviewing your cars. like others said, the pilot must request a contact approach (or visual). if you are cleared the approach then you are to do the published, if you want to do a contact or a visual, you must resquest it and also have the requirements (vis and ceiling), or if you are VMC, cancel IFR and continue visually.
i think (but not 100%) that in canada we are to call level, but if someone can confirm that?

[MCA]

ATC Manops specifies that a controller must expect IFR and CVFR aircraft to call level or leaving an altitude for another.

[Flying Low]

From the AIM

8.4 Altitude Reports
Pilots shall report reaching the altitude to which the flight has been initially cleared. When climbing or descending en route, pilots shall report when leaving a previously assigned altitude and when reaching the assigned altitude.

On initial contact with ATC or when changing from one ATC frequency to another, pilots of IFR and controlled VFR flights shall state the assigned cruising altitude and, when applicable, the altitude through which the aircraft is climbing or descending.

In order for ATC to use Mode C altitude information for separation purposes, the aircraft Mode C altitude readout must be verified. The Mode C altitude is considered valid if the readout value does not differ from the aircraft reported altitude by more than 200 ft. The readout is considered invalid if the difference is 300 ft or more. Therefore, it is expected that pilot altitude reports, especially during climbs and descents, will be made to the nearest 100-ft increment.

Example:

EDMONTON CENTRE AIR CANADA 801 HEAVY, LEAVING 8 300 feet, CLIMBING TO FLIGHT LEVEL 350.

If the phrase “report level”, “report leaving” or “report passing” is used by ATC the pilot shall comply (CAR 602.31 Compliance with Air Traffic Control Instructions and Clearances).

[lilfssister]

Some of the things that I was taught (learned) were that FSS folks are often working many frequencies at many airports and that when I call I should give them the airport and frequency (or FISE and frequency).

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Definitely for contacts on 126.7, say where you are! The FIC's have 126.7 all over their territory.

[tower controller]

I'd like to add a couple of points here if I could....

With the implementation of FIC's and such yeah FSS are listening to 126.7 from over a wide area, also during slow periods centre controllers may also be working a huge chunk of airspace and saying your location will help them provide you with a better service.....

Now one thing that's becoming more and more common, and is really causing us problems. Ground Frequency is meant to be used when you are on the ground. At a Control tower the tower frequency is designed not to interfere with adjacent units, Ground frequency isn't. Ground is a relatively low powered transmitter, and therefore it's quite common for a bunch of different units to have the same ground frequency. When you're at fl350 inbound to someplace and have a chat on ground with the tower about where you're parking, you're outbound flight plan, or where the best looking rental car girls (or guys) are you may be blocking ground control in two or three other airports. So please if you need to ask a question before you get there.....call the tower frequency, he'll help you out if he can and if he's too busy, chances are he's either working both frequencies or the ground guy is busy too.

Thanks for listening

[zzjayca]

zzjayca, here's how it usually happens, and here's the reason why we 'wake up' ATC with a 'request:

1) Center ABC request FL350.
2) Aircraft Calling Center say again?
3) Center ABC requ****SCREEEEEEEEEEECH*****
4) CDE standby: BREAK: ABC you were stepped on by another aircraft, say again?
5) Center ABC request FL350.
6) ABC maintain FL350.
7) Roger ABC leaving FL330 for FL350.

So you would rather:

1- Centre ABC request.
2- Aircraft Calling Centre say again?
3- Centre ABC requ****SCREEEEEEEEEEECH*****
4- CDE standby: BREAK: ABC you were stepped on by another aircraft, say again?
5- Centre ABC request.
6- ABC go ahead.
7- Centre ABC request FL350.
8- ABC maintain FL350.
9- Roger ABC leaving FL330 for FL350.


Obviously, at times, things will happen to increase the number of transmissions. (eg. being stepped on). However, by making a request to make a request, the minimum amount of transmissions required to accomplish the task goes up.

[FamilyGuy]

Flying Low you have most of it correct with your quote. For low level (blo FL 280) that is fine information.
Above that in RADAR RVSM, level calls are not required. Only in non-RADAR RVSM are pilots instructed to call level.

My comm pet peeeve - big long unsolicited detailed story about some flights ride and looking for smoother but they don't tell you who they are!!! " Uhh roger, that was nice, now WHO are you!"

My procedures pet peeve - LEARN the difference between "pilot discretion" and an ATC instruction!!! If ATC says "maintain 80T" that means leave your present altitude WITHOUT delay, not when you feel like it! No specific airline names need be mentioned...yet

[bigfssguy]

Majesty you have it right about the 126.7. When you call say where your calling through if you know. With the FIC implementation there are FSS working the enroute radio position that has sometimes 20 frequencies on the go plus he is doing all the flight plan following and alerting as well. As for us simple AAS sites it's not really required since we only have 2 or 3 frequencies. But on the other hand personally i like it when a pilot makes an initial call because i have 2 phone lines, and atc line to center a MF freq, a vehicle freq and a couple computers always squeking at me as well as all the navaid monitors.....ooh i almost forgot managers and coworkers beeking off. So by making an initial call i will hear you and maybe pull your strip out or even write it down and i will get too you as soon as i can. If you start yacking about what you want i may not be able to get it all down and i will have to ask for a repeat making more frequency congestion.

[zzjayca]

My procedures pet peeve - LEARN the difference between "pilot discretion" and an ATC instruction!!! If ATC says "maintain 80T" that means leave your present altitude WITHOUT delay, not when you feel like it! No specific airline names need be mentioned...yet

I second that. And it only seems to be one airline that has a problem comprehending that unless the instruction is prefixed/suffixed with "at pilot's discretion" it isn't.

[FamilyGuy]

zzjayca we both know who we are talking about. I've mentioned it to the powers that be "casualy" but so far Sweet FA has occured. Maybe we need to file some "reports" to deal with it....It IS a CARS infraction........

[zzjayca]

FamilyGuy,

Funny, that's exactly how we have been dealing with it so far.

The problem is it's another hole in the swiss cheese that is lining up. In spite of talking to both the flight crews and the Nav Canada powers that be, nothing seems to be getting resolved.

As much as I would rather not, maybe it's time TC was involved.