So over at TransAt.......PAY ATTENTION!

[RippleRock]

So has anyone heard what the difference between the 2 AT fa contract offers ?

It's a bit academic at this point.

The fact is that the FA's voted in complete solidarity, resulting in a new offer in less than a SINGLE WEEK. That's saying something about the power of solidarity and Unionism getting shit DONE.

Solidarity is the theme of my post, and naturally it swung over to overt forms of solidarity on display at our company.

I think the point has been made, but it will be nice to see what they've achieved!

HOLD the LINE.

[Handover]

or we can all collectively SIT BACK DOWN and wait for the train to run us over, because it WILL.

The train has already run over you. This is the worst airline in North America, the lowest paid, and frankly, every time I fly, it has one of the most miserable service in the world.

Your airline is a government-protected dumpster fire. It's about time a real airline stepped up to become Canada's most prestigious. The rest of Canadian aviation can only wish.

lol. ain't that the truth

[Handover]

There is a toxic culture at this airline, but it's not on the line or from the line. it comes from above.

Canadian mindset? I don't know what that is"

you hit the nail on the head there bud. "I'm perfect, its always someone else's fault"

look inwards for real change.

[RippleRock]

There is a toxic culture at this airline, but it's not on the line or from the line. it comes from above.

Canadian mindset? I don't know what that is"

you hit the nail on the head there bud. "I'm perfect, its always someone else's fault"

look inwards for real change.

Are you here to add anything "Bud"?

Or are you just here to drop a few "zingers"?

You're obviously part of the problem in this country.

[Handover]

Are you here to add anything "Bud"?

Or are you just here to drop a few "zingers"? Sounds to me like you're part of the problem in this country.

well aren't you touchy. seems like you can dish it out but can't take it eh. nice comeback, "its not me its youuuuuuu"

[eyebrow737]

you know EXACTLY what you haven't done to protect the contract over the last 20, and YOU OWE THE MOST to the demographic that comes after you. Guys like you, myself included, should be ashamed about what we've let occur over the last 20 years. Most major changes went through a vote or poll. Most passed under your watch and mine.

Read my post - in the past, the airline I worked that was far bigger than AC. I've only been at AC for 6 years. Started at this flat pay, that YOU and left for us. Almost 1/10th of what I left to be home with the grandkids.

Don't put it on me, Look in the mirror. When I talk about the Canadian mentality that is now prevalent, that wasn't there when I left. I'm seeing it in spades at AC. The issues you are so quick to blame on everyone else, are truly systemic here. If you had somewhere else to compare your conditions to and had lived them, you'd then only understand how you are trying to chop down a tree with a knife.

You think a union is going to solve everything, look at Westjet. It's like saying communism is going to fix all the problems of capitalism.

Anyway, you'll learn. It's going to take both labor and management to effect real change. Otherwise it will just be the same.

[RippleRock]

you know EXACTLY what you haven't done to protect the contract over the last 20, and YOU OWE THE MOST to the demographic that comes after you. Guys like you, myself included, should be ashamed about what we've let occur over the last 20 years. Most major changes went through a vote or poll. Most passed under your watch and mine.

Read my post - in the past, the airline I worked that was far bigger than AC. I've only been at AC for 6 years. Started at this flat pay, that YOU and left for us. Almost 1/10th of what I left to be home with the grandkids.

Don't put it on me, Look in the mirror. When I talk about the Canadian mentality that is now prevalent, that wasn't there when I left. I'm seeing it in spades at AC. The issues you are so quick to blame on everyone else, are truly systemic here. If you had somewhere else to compare your conditions to and had lived them, you'd then only understand how you are trying to chop down a tree with a knife.

You think a union is going to solve everything, look at Westjet. It's like saying communism is going to fix all the problems of capitalism.

Anyway, you'll learn. It's going to take both labor and management to effect real change. Otherwise it will just be the same.

My message was to a broader audience than just you. You're talking like someone whos trying to justify VO.

You know what it means to do your part. Everyone does. That is all that's being asked. Don't undermine the efforts of those who are attempting to affect positive change in this country. If you're defeated, and don't believe in collective effort, just stay out of the way of those who do.

[RippleRock]

you know EXACTLY what you haven't done to protect the contract over the last 20, and YOU OWE THE MOST to the demographic that comes after you. Guys like you, myself included, should be ashamed about what we've let occur over the last 20 years. Most major changes went through a vote or poll. Most passed under your watch and mine.

Read my post - in the past, the airline I worked that was far bigger than AC. I've only been at AC for 6 years. Started at this flat pay, that YOU and left for us. Almost 1/10th of what I left to be home with the grandkids.

Don't put it on me, Look in the mirror. When I talk about the Canadian mentality that is now prevalent, that wasn't there when I left. I'm seeing it in spades at AC. The issues you are so quick to blame on everyone else, are truly systemic here. If you had somewhere else to compare your conditions to and had lived them, you'd then only understand how you are trying to chop down a tree with a knife.

You think a union is going to solve everything, look at Westjet. It's like saying communism is going to fix all the problems of capitalism.

Anyway, you'll learn. It's going to take both labor and management to effect real change. Otherwise it will just be the same.

I doubt you'll teach me anything new. I've been in aviation over 40 years. My message was to a broader audience. You're talking like someone who's just trying to justify the VO their picking up.

I refuse to engage anyone with a "defeatist attitude" on an individual basis. It's purely wasted effort.

If you don't believe in ALPA's drive to better the career in this country, you do you, just stay out of the way of those who are actually putting the effort in.

Hope the raise that's coming for you, --generated on the backs of others efforts--, leaves you with a bitter taste.

[eyebrow737]

Hope the raise that's coming for you, --generated on the backs of others efforts--, leaves you with a bitter taste.

you could have fit it that into one message instead of stuttering
40 years in aviation, did you not also say "Your 40 year opinion will be followed by a 25 year opinion, mine." 40 or 25? folding paper planes when you are 3 years old doesn't count as being in aviation.

Anyway, I've done my fair share for the industry, you won't know that, nor do I expect you to care. I'll have retired before I see any returns on these negations, so sorry to disappoint. That fact that you want other to feel bitter, speaks volumes for your personality.

I'll leave you to your saviour complex young'n.

[RippleRock]

Hope the raise that's coming for you, --generated on the backs of others efforts--, leaves you with a bitter taste.

you could have fit it that into one message instead of stuttering
40 years in aviation, did you not also say "Your 40 year opinion will be followed by a 25 year opinion, mine." 40 or 25? folding paper planes when you are 3 years old doesn't count as being in aviation.

Anyway, I've done my fair share for the industry, you won't know that, nor do I expect you to care. I'll have retired before I see any returns on these negations, so sorry to disappoint. That fact that you want other to feel bitter, speaks volumes for your personality.

I'll leave you to your saviour complex young'n.

40 years in aviation genius, 25 years here, I retire in 6.

I know your type. Self serving. It's all your type were ever good at, and there are plenty of you in the top 800. We're at the "bottom of the food chain" here for a reason. Look in a mirror.

Good luck in retirement while we attempt to right the ship. I'll do my part.

[altiplano]

@eyebrow

What have you done?

Or more importantly what are you doing NOW to affect positive change? Move this group, this profession forward? Start a change in this Canadian mindset you speak of?

You wrote: "it takes labor and management to effect real change. Otherwise it will just be the same."

You're right on that. The problem is that management will not change - they want status quo. Why wouldn't they? It's benefitted then enormously for the past 20 years. We are going to have to drag them kicking and screaming to realize the change we seek. We are going to have to start acting differently than we have been.

We tried cooperating, being partners, but the "new relationship" we had with management following FOS and the 2014 Framework MOA set our group back further and saw our pay and work conditions erode more than at any time during this airline's history. Turns out it was just management-speak for us capitulating and voting yes to whatever management's next whim was. Always accepting that what fell off the table to us was the "best we could do."

6 years in at AC and approaching the end of your career? Not able to realize the gains we are looking to achieve? Are you prepared to be locked out or go on strike? Because if you're not then the best thing you can do is get on board now and support your MEC to pressure the airline NOW. Show solidarity NOW. That will get management to accept the real change that's coming.

Only solidarity will force management to see the new path. The majority here are on side with their MEC and Association, but we need everyone or this has the potential to get ugly for all sides.

The MEC/NC has the mandate from the membership and will not capitulate. I'm behind them for whatever it takes.

[Hangry]

Sounds like another boomer beholden to an outdated ideology as most boomers are.

They can’t help themselves. It’s who they are. Leave them behind. Don’t even bother.

Soldier ahead. Wear your lanyard. Get on board.

[munzil]

Sounds like another boomer beholden to an outdated ideology as most boomers are.

They can’t help themselves. It’s who they are. Leave them behind. Don’t even bother.

Soldier ahead. Wear your lanyard. Get on board.

The original poster identifies himself as a boomer. Don't be a:
big·ot
/ˈbiɡət/
noun
a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

[Hangry]

Vidkun Quisling should be forgiven cause he admitted what he was right? I mean. He told us!

Obviously not the same but I hope you get the point. I hope.

GTFO

[8895]

The only thing I learned from reading this thread is that AC pilots have an irrational obsession with lanyards….? Lol

[Tigger]

The only thing I learned from reading this thread is that AC pilots have an irrational obsession with lanyards….? Lol

The other thing that is quite obvious (and the main reason I hardly ever pop in here) is that some AC pilots in this forum seemingly have a) an all consuming obsession with the job and can think of nothing else, 24 hours a day; b) no life outside the airline; c) some serious anger issues; and d) must be LOADS of fun to fly with.

Fortunately they are a tiny minority, because everyone I fly with seems pretty well adjusted, no matter what colour their lanyard is. FWIW, mine is red.

[Freshredmeat]

The only thing I learned from reading this thread is that AC pilots have an irrational obsession with lanyards….? Lol

Sounds like another Canadian pilot on Canadian discount but can't quite figure out why

Hint: Look at successful US ALPA unions. They don't mess around with something like a lanyard. Just wear it and visibly support your union

[RippleRock]

The only thing I learned from reading this thread is that AC pilots have an irrational obsession with lanyards….? Lol

The other thing that is quite obvious (and the main reason I hardly ever pop in here) is that some AC pilots in this forum seemingly have a) an all consuming obsession with the job and can think of nothing else, 24 hours a day; b) no life outside the airline; c) some serious anger issues; and d) must be LOADS of fun to fly with.

Fortunately they are a tiny minority, because everyone I fly with seems pretty well adjusted, no matter what colour their lanyard is. FWIW, mine is red.

That's actually a bit comical. I won't take it personally that you're trying to insult those who are actively trying to "better" the working conditions of all pilots in Canada. I'm a little confused by that attitude. You should be ashamed if your one of us. However, you're entitled to your opinion.

FWIW, My wife doesn't even know my position on aviation matters. Successful pilots know where to "draw the line". Believe it or not, I'm very "non-political" at work. There are a lot of very "sensitive" pilots out there who may interpret even "gentle nudging" as bullying. Gotta be careful in this "every little feeling matters" climate of "opinion oppression" we're living under. We are VERY different from our American pilot brethern in this regard. They don't put up with babies.

What I am keenly aware of is the POOR concept of Unionism in Canada, It's a bit of a "free-for-all". Like I said, it's akin to herding cats.

What's seems to be lost in translation, among all the "hurt feelings" out there, is that we will get NOTHING until we unite under a SINGLE CAUSE. That "cause" is recognizing that we are on the bottom of the WACON pile, and following the guidance of ALPA "To the letter" is the ONLY way forward. Such a challenging and "triggering" concept, I know.

Do as Charlene requests of you, don't whine, don't cry "bully" and definitely don't "do things" that jepordize our solidarity. It's pretty simple, but there are some damn thick skulls out there. If they can't seem to get this simple concept, I sometimes wonder if they're intelligent enough to keep the flying public safe when airborne.

And some wonder why those of us keenly aware of those shortcomings, and what's at stake, get a bit frustrated.



Edited for poor spelling and grammer.

[Handover]

.....And some wonder why those of us keenly aware of those shortcomings, and what's at stake, get a bit frustrated.

Let me sum up what ripplerock is saying. Follow the advice of your union who have your best interests at heart. If you don't agree, do your own thing but don't get in the way of the broader goal. You've been entrusted with an expensive piece of equipment and 100's of passengers lives. You've got a brain of your own, use it wisely.

Above all don't follow the advise of blowhards on the internet who continue to pontificate how wonderful they are and how stupid everyone else is. We have the CBC for that.

[Fanblade]

We are treading down the same path of another much larger (now almost defunct airline) I worked for many years ago. There was a toxic culture very much the same as what I am seeing here. It ended up turning a great place to work with the best WACON in the world into a pile of steaming dung.

Most of you probably haven't been around long enough to see these cycles and degradations, but I can tell you now, AC is in the middle of it.

Cathay I would guess?

I’m pushing the top 10% of the list. Not to brag. Not to say I know it all. I don’t. Just to give you an idea of my perspective.

I get where you are coming from. But I think your situational awareness is skewed.

The toxic culture you speak of is real and it has already turned our WAWCON into a steaming pile of dung. You are perceiving yourself in the wrong end of the cycle. This is what coming out of the dung feels and smells like.

Can I still smell the stench of the dung? Yup. This is also the most optimistic I have been in two decades. You think this smells? Not even close.

Hong Kong labour laws are almost non existent. Nothing like Canada. Cathay began the decent into the dung much like AC pilots did. It started with B scales and from there unity gets destroyed. Our B scale was FOS. Before your time. Once unity is destroyed the union is broken. Once unity is broken WAWCON goes down the toilet.

The recovery from the steaming pile of dung starts with unity. You can’t build a solid structure on sand. You need a foundation. In this case the foundation is unity.

The whole point of SPSC? To attempt to show the company that we are serious and united. To get them to believe, if they take us on? It will cost a bunch of money and they will still pay us. It’s to make them believe well in advance that it is just cheaper to negotiate.

If we fail in this messaging that is how we end up on strike or locked out.

All of us please stop and think about this statement for a moment.

Are my actions a display of unity? Or are they a display of resistance to unity?

Things like lanyards in the union world are called structure tests. You start small and build from there. Going too far to fast and a union is at risk of getting too far out in front of the membership. Then when the battle starts and they look behind? No one is following. Because we are relearning how to be a union these structure tests are important. The MEC is watching and so is the company. Believe it or not that lanyard is a billboard.

Solidarity and Unity people. It is vital to our collective success.

The company believes that we are individually smart but collectively stupid. Don’t prove them right.

[RippleRock]

For those of you who find this thread and others like it a "bit intense", or upsetting, might if suggest the ACpilotsforum?

They like to talk a lot about LottoMax, and they post pictures of puppies, talk about German beer, headsets and the like. Nice "soft" padded place for those triggered by those with actual opinions and ideas on the tougher topics like how to actually improve things around here.

[Aotearoa]

For those of you who find this thread and others like it a "bit intense", or upsetting, might if suggest the ACpilotsforum?
They like to talk a lot about LottoMax, and they post pictures of puppies, talk about German beer, headsets and the like. Nice "soft" padded place for those triggered by those with actual opinions and ideas on the tougher topics like how to actually improve things around here.

I don't think people are finding it too intense. They just think you are a' blowhard'. You have the same message that fanblade has, but he actually sounds like a reasonable intelligent person. You sound way too excitable to be in any position of authority.

[RippleRock]

For those of you who find this thread and others like it a "bit intense", or upsetting, might if suggest the ACpilotsforum?
They like to talk a lot about LottoMax, and they post pictures of puppies, talk about German beer, headsets and the like. Nice "soft" padded place for those triggered by those with actual opinions and ideas on the tougher topics like how to actually improve things around here.

I don't think people are finding it too intense. They just think you are a' blowhard'. You have the same message that fanblade has, but he actually sounds like a reasonable intelligent person. You sound way too excitable to be in any position of authority.

That's fine. It's a hugely important time for us. Some just recognize that far more than most. The Union just isn't getting through to about 30%. Thought I'd give it a try as they apparently need assistance getting the message. Some need a little "extra" encouragement, and I don't have much to loose banging away on a keyboard. Caps lock on and underlining doesn't necessarily mean I'm sitting here "screaming at my screen" as you might imagine. Lol.

That said, some people actually care far more than others about being the "bottom feeders" of Western Legacy Aviation. I'm driven by the fact it''s an avoidable embarrassment. Some people who've watched the decline for decades might find the lack of unity far more potentially damaging than others. I'm in that category. To each their own. You have the option of not reading what I write. Just click on my handle and mark it as "foe". Done.

I wish I could reveal who I was. Those who know me would likely be -very- surprised. However, not an option as I would be getting a nastygram from KO'B, MS or DS within minutes. They don't want you guys wound up, engaged or united, as something WACON positive might actually happen and cost the Corp some $$$.

[altiplano]

We have all given so much to this career and work for an organization that has been highly successful in taking so much from us.

I think that right now we are in a position to, and should all put maximum effort in to extract the absolute most possible to our gain and get an industry leading contract again. I believe that now is the time and that it will have an enormous effect on our futures and the future of this profession in this country.

I believe we are in a highly critical time right now and that it is taking on our shoulders today to do our part.

I believe the way we do our part is to get behind the MEC and encourage every one of our colleagues to do the same. RIGHT NOW is the time that has to happen. Not everyone thinks about it, so I think engaging colleagues and pointing out the problems of not achieving solidarity in the membership is important. I think it's important that we all learn what it takes to be successful as a group once again.

I think our success hinges on having an active and engaged group that displays it's solidarity.

There are obviously other opinions here so I'm interested to hear what people think we should do, if not find solidarity behind our MEC and ALPA? If not follow the leadership's direction, wear the lanyard, stick to the minimum in the contract, pressure the company, than what?

Do you believe that our NC will extract an industry leading contract for us either way and that we all have to do absolutely nothing to get it?

Or are you just happy with whatever the company offers?

Or do you think that unionism is just silly and we get what we get and it doesn't matter?

What will achieve success if not the tried and true formula that our leadership and Association are calling for?

Or do you have a different metric for "success"?

I'd like to hear suggestions if people don't think wearing the lanyard and displaying solidarity matters.

I think if we don't find solidarity the company will dig in and this gets a lot more difficult, maybe even the company wins when what solidarity we do have falters. If this happens all Professional Pilots in Canada now and into the future lose. That's how critical a point we are at.

[unionism101]

We are treading down the same path of another much larger (now almost defunct airline) I worked for many years ago. There was a toxic culture very much the same as what I am seeing here. It ended up turning a great place to work with the best WACON in the world into a pile of steaming dung.

Most of you probably haven't been around long enough to see these cycles and degradations, but I can tell you now, AC is in the middle of it.

Cathay I would guess?

I’m pushing the top 10% of the list. Not to brag. Not to say I know it all. I don’t. Just to give you an idea of my perspective.

I get where you are coming from. But I think your situational awareness is skewed.

The toxic culture you speak of is real and it has already turned our WAWCON into a steaming pile of dung. You are perceiving yourself in the wrong end of the cycle. This is what coming out of the dung feels and smells like.

Can I still smell the stench of the dung? Yup. This is also the most optimistic I have been in two decades. You think this smells? Not even close.

Hong Kong labour laws are almost non existent. Nothing like Canada. Cathay began the decent into the dung much like AC pilots did. It started with B scales and from there unity gets destroyed. Our B scale was FOS. Before your time. Once unity is destroyed the union is broken. Once unity is broken WAWCON goes down the toilet.

The recovery from the steaming pile of dung starts with unity. You can’t build a solid structure on sand. You need a foundation. In this case the foundation is unity.

The whole point of SPSC? To attempt to show the company that we are serious and united. To get them to believe, if they take us on? It will cost a bunch of money and they will still pay us. It’s to make them believe well in advance that it is just cheaper to negotiate.

If we fail in this messaging that is how we end up on strike or locked out.

All of us please stop and think about this statement for a moment.

Are my actions a display of unity? Or are they a display of resistance to unity?

Things like lanyards in the union world are called structure tests. You start small and build from there. Going too far to fast and a union is at risk of getting too far out in front of the membership. Then when the battle starts and they look behind? No one is following. Because we are relearning how to be a union these structure tests are important. The MEC is watching and so is the company. Believe it or not that lanyard is a billboard.

Solidarity and Unity people. It is vital to our collective success.

The company believes that we are individually smart but collectively stupid. Don’t prove them right.

Hear hear!

Well said

Everyone read that post again