“Pilots are leaving” — ALPA

[Bede]

You stated the cause of our low pay in Canada is the user pay policy. This is something we can’t address. Therefor the implication is we can’t do better.

You're putting words in my mouth. I said that government policy is a reason for historically lower wages in Canada in the last 20 years. I never said it was the reason. There's many other reasons at play here: Let's start with internecine warfare following Picher where Jazz pilots were willing to accept lower wages to secure flying just to spite AC pilots. How about government interference in 2013 leading to arbitration. Are those not valid reasons?

Have you noticed how profitable AC is? In reality these fees have been passed onto the consumer. It’s why air travel is expensive in Canada.

ALPA E&FA (Economic & Financial Analysis) says AC can afford to pay us.

Well yes of course I have noticed how profitable AC is, which is one reason that you will do well. As I posted in another thread, your negotiating equilibrium (google it) is actually well above Delta wage rates which leads me to suspect that you do well if you play it smart.

Here's your problem: you focus on Delta wage rates because it's intellectually simple. If you focused instead on the value that you bring to your employer, you might actually do better if you play your hand right.

[Fanblade]

You're putting words in my mouth. I said that government policy is a reason for historically lower wages in Canada in the last 20 years. I never said it was the reason.

These were your words. Not mine.

Based on my analysis, I attribute the majority of our underwhelming compensation on the federal government's airports policy.

Here's your problem: you focus on Delta wage rates because it's intellectually simple. If you focused instead on the value that you bring to your employer, you might actually do better if you play your hand right.

There is a big difference between sound bites for public consumption and internal messaging.

[Bede]

There is a big difference between sound bites for public consumption and internal messaging.

Well exactly.

[Fanblade]

IMO you need to know the history to explain why our wages have been suppressed for so long in Canada.

Take the view from 35000.

It starts in 2000 and the merger of all legacy airlines into a single entity. In 2003 that legacy airline entered bankruptcy and there was nothing left to hold the high water mark.

The initial restructuring of AC was a failure. By 2009 the airline once again in crisis. Government intervention and FOS happened as a result.

There is a saying. A rising tide floats all boats. Management has their own version. At low tide throw out the anchor. Anchor them low.

We signed a 10 year deal locking in our CCAA & FOS losses for 10 years. This suppressed the entire industry.

Today both WJ and AC messaging and strategy are the same. Anchor them low. Make post bankruptcy the new normal. A Canadian normal.

Their strategy is an attempt to make post bankruptcy wages permanent and make everyone think that is the Canadian norm.

This is why you will here the ACA MEC make statements like bankruptcy recovery contract. Only legacy airline not to recover after 911. Or point at both US legacy wages AND our pre 911 wages adjusted for inflation to today. They are similar.

The messaging. No this is not the Canadian norm. It’s Air Canada trying to hold on to a post bankruptcy contract 20 years out.

[thepoors]

You've also expressed satisfaction with the new WJ contract - which represents a massive failure to bring any meaningful change under extremely favourable conditions.

I have- as have 87% of my colleagues. We secured virtually everything we wanted without giving anything up. Have you read it? What parts didn't suit your needs?

Mainly the disgustingly low pay increase...which was immediately surpassed by Porter. Not to mention, with the current state of cost of living and inflation you're probably looking at a relative pay cut by the time the contract is up.

A pilot group and union can absolutely make the necessary gains by standing strong and following through.

Are there any limits to your necessary gains?

As everyone in this thread with any sense has been saying - 2003 AC wages adjusted to inflation and/or current Delta scale.

[Fanblade]

You've also expressed satisfaction with the new WJ contract - which represents a massive failure to bring any meaningful change under extremely favourable conditions.

I have- as have 87% of my colleagues. We secured virtually everything we wanted without giving anything up. Have you read it? What parts didn't suit your needs?

Mainly the disgustingly low pay increase...which was immediately surpassed by Porter

thepoors,

We are the legacy airline. It is unheard of that a none legacy airline would trump their legacy competitor by 20%. Yet the WJ pilots did. Think of it this way. WJ pilots moved the ball downfield for us. They closed the gap between our current and historical wages. And not just by a small amount. It will make it easier for us to achieve our goal.

We get this job done? I have no doubt they will try to top us yet again.

It’s our group that suppressed wages in Canada. WJ pilots don’t have the historical argument we have. It’s our job to lead back.

[thepoors]

You've also expressed satisfaction with the new WJ contract - which represents a massive failure to bring any meaningful change under extremely favourable conditions.

I have- as have 87% of my colleagues. We secured virtually everything we wanted without giving anything up. Have you read it? What parts didn't suit your needs?

Mainly the disgustingly low pay increase...which was immediately surpassed by Porter

thepoors,

We are the legacy airline. It is unheard of that a none legacy airline would trump their legacy competitor by 20%. Yet WK did.

That's fine. But they were able to achieve that while also backing down from a strike at the 11th hour. Imagine the gains they could have made had they followed through.

That's why I just don't buy any of this "you can't fix 20 years of contracts/concessions in one go blah blah blah" ...yes we can, and we must. It simply requires belief and, even more importantly, resolve. No one has yet had the backbone to really stick it to management, if we can continue the path that AC ALPA is currently on I think we can accomplish the unprecedented gains we really deserve.

[throwawaycorporate]

You've also expressed satisfaction with the new WJ contract - which represents a massive failure to bring any meaningful change under extremely favourable conditions.



Mainly the disgustingly low pay increase...which was immediately surpassed by Porter

thepoors,

We are the legacy airline. It is unheard of that a none legacy airline would trump their legacy competitor by 20%. Yet WK did.

That's fine. But they were able to achieve that while also backing down from a strike at the 11th hour. Imagine the gains they could have made had they followed through.

That's why I just don't buy any of this "you can't fix 20 years of contracts/concessions in one go blah blah blah" ...yes we can, and we must. It simply requires belief and, even more importantly, resolve. No one has yet had the backbone to really stick it to management, if we can continue the path that AC ALPA is currently on I think we can accomplish the unprecedented gains we really deserve.

If WS chose to strike, everything was back on the table including scope. I don't work at Westjet but from what I can tell, they secured all flying moving forward, big QOL improvements and were one of the first movers to increase pay by a significant margin including a reasonable allowance for inflation throughout the contract.

Did you know this? Would you advise a strike in those conditions?

[digits_]

If WS chose to strike, everything was back on the table including scope. I don't work at Westjet but from what I can tell, they secured all flying moving forward, big QOL improvements and were one of the first movers to increase pay by a significant margin including a reasonable allowance for inflation throughout the contract.

Did you know this? Would you advise a strike in those conditions?

Isn't that the case at every contract renewal?

[crashpadcommute]

WJ ALPA did an incredible job pushing Onex around. They negotiate tough. To say ALPA would have got more after they striked is a bit amateur. Your max leverage is when the other side KNOWS you're going to do it. Once you're out on the streets, the economies of scales change.

And I wouldn't give relief to the WJ pilot group for the poor plight of pilots in this country. They drank the Kool-aid pretty hard cleaning up dirty diapers with first pioneers doing well with their stock options

Their first ALPA voted failed and they allowed Swoop which created a huge mess for their last round of negotiations

I would say both pilot groups are responsible for the toilet bowl effect created

[Bede]

Mainly the disgustingly low pay increase...which was immediately surpassed by Porter

?? I'm showing that a top end pay of $227/hr at porter and $280 at WJ/hr. Do you have any different information?
viewtopic.php?t=195682

That's fine. But they were able to achieve that while also backing down from a strike at the 11th hour. Imagine the gains they could have made had they followed through.

What gains do you think could have been made? Throw a number out.

[Bede]

Mainly the disgustingly low pay increase...which was immediately surpassed by Porter

??? viewtopic.php?t=195682 $280 vs $228. Fill me in where I'm wrong.

That's fine. But they were able to achieve that while also backing down from a strike at the 11th hour. Imagine the gains they could have made had they followed through.

Ok, let's imagine. What kind of gains could have been made?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Mainly the disgustingly low pay increase...which was immediately surpassed by Porter

??? viewtopic.php?t=195682 $280 vs $228. Fill me in where I'm wrong.

That's fine. But they were able to achieve that while also backing down from a strike at the 11th hour. Imagine the gains they could have made had they followed through.

Ok, let's imagine. What kind of gains could have been made?

You’re looking at the wrong porter line. It was changed. Top scale is 270$

[cjp]

Mainly the disgustingly low pay increase...which was immediately surpassed by Porter

??? viewtopic.php?t=195682 $280 vs $228. Fill me in where I'm wrong.

That's fine. But they were able to achieve that while also backing down from a strike at the 11th hour. Imagine the gains they could have made had they followed through.

Ok, let's imagine. What kind of gains could have been made?

You’re looking at the wrong porter line. It was changed. Top scale is 270$

Little chitty chatty birdies on the line hinting at that becoming YR1 Capt when AC drops their new contract. No idea who started that rumour, but it's sounding nice.

[Chaxterium]

Little chitty chatty birdies on the line hinting at that becoming YR1 Capt when AC drops their new contract. No idea who started that rumour, but it's sounding nice.

Are you suggesting that you've heard rumours that Porter's year 1 CA pay will go to $270/hr?

[CaptDukeNukem]

I haven’t heard any of the sort. But Cjp might have his ear on the rail better.

[Chaxterium]

I mean I definitely see a bump coming once the AC contract is done but I don't expect it to be anywhere near that amount.

I certainly wouldn't complain though.

[cjp]

I mean I definitely see a bump coming once the AC contract is done but I don't expect it to be anywhere near that amount.

I certainly wouldn't complain though.

Hearing it from FOs on the line, I think they are more connected to the rail than I. I wouldn't believe them if the number I was hearing wasn't so consistent. Otherwise no official knowledge. That would be an interesting number to target - be nice if they could pull the trigger sooner rather than later.

[cdnavater]

I mean I definitely see a bump coming once the AC contract is done but I don't expect it to be anywhere near that amount.

I certainly wouldn't complain though.

Hearing it from FOs on the line, I think they are more connected to the rail than I. I wouldn't believe them if the number I was hearing wasn't so consistent. Otherwise no official knowledge. That would be an interesting number to target - be nice if they could pull the trigger sooner rather than later.

If you haven’t heard a rumour by 9, start one

[cjp]

I mean I definitely see a bump coming once the AC contract is done but I don't expect it to be anywhere near that amount.

I certainly wouldn't complain though.

Hearing it from FOs on the line, I think they are more connected to the rail than I. I wouldn't believe them if the number I was hearing wasn't so consistent. Otherwise no official knowledge. That would be an interesting number to target - be nice if they could pull the trigger sooner rather than later.

If you haven’t heard a rumour by 9, start one

[CaptDukeNukem]

I mean I definitely see a bump coming once the AC contract is done but I don't expect it to be anywhere near that amount.

I certainly wouldn't complain though.

Hearing it from FOs on the line, I think they are more connected to the rail than I. I wouldn't believe them if the number I was hearing wasn't so consistent. Otherwise no official knowledge. That would be an interesting number to target - be nice if they could pull the trigger sooner rather than later.

If you haven’t heard a rumour by 9, start one

It’s almost 9 here.

I heard jazz was gonna open up new bases in La ronge, deer lake and Dryden.

[CaptDukeNukem]

In all seriousness. Nothing will change until things actually change. Best of luck to AC pilots. It’s been a long time coming, don’t sell yourself short.

[TCAS II]

I could be wrong, but I doubt 2-3 departures a month is giving the company anything to be concerned about.

My guess would be if this isn’t a World Class Contract, then the numbers will shoot up. Some are waiting to see what is offered before making the jump.

[‘Bob’]

I could be wrong, but I doubt 2-3 departures a month is giving the company anything to be concerned about.

My guess would be if this isn’t a World Class Contract, then the numbers will shoot up. Some are waiting to see what is offered before making the jump.

Jump to WHERE!?

[theacolyte]

I could be wrong, but I doubt 2-3 departures a month is giving the company anything to be concerned about.

My guess would be if this isn’t a World Class Contract, then the numbers will shoot up. Some are waiting to see what is offered before making the jump.

Jump to WHERE!?

I mean, if the contract is absolute dogshit there's a very good chance I start looking overseas. Many of us have 30+ years left, and if there's no improvement on the horizon I can't see myself sticking it out here for the rest of my life.