Canadian Survey Plane Accident Albany, NY

[Old fella]

Has anyone got a link to the video footage?

Google it, couple of media sites have it. It( footage) is very brief.

[PilotDAR]

In that quick video clip, I see an airplane descending fully stalled, with some effort being applied to prevent a wing drop.

[Dry Guy]

This is a bit of a tangent, but I don't think this narrative that the TSB is slow is fair to the investigators. Looking at the most recent reports that they've released, they've come out in 19 months, 11 months, 21 months, 10 months, 21 months, 14 months, 5 months, 7 months, 14 months, 3 months, 7 months, 8 months, 7 months, 34 months, 5 months, and 16 months. So that's only one report that took more than two years to release, and nine that were released in less than a year. People love to cherry-pick the reports that take a long time to be published, but they ignore the vast majority that are released quickly. Usually the ones that take forever are because the TSB is doing a comprehensive analysis of something that can be improved upon, like when they did a bunch of testing on floor loading after the West Wind ATR crash; everyone was moaning about how slow the process was and how lazy those civil servants must be, but when it finally came out everyone seemed to be quite impressed by the efforts they went to in order to provide recommendations for improving safety.

Sounds pretty slow to me. What did floor loading have to do with the Westwind ATR crash anyway?

[‘Bob’]

This is a bit of a tangent, but I don't think this narrative that the TSB is slow is fair to the investigators. Looking at the most recent reports that they've released, they've come out in 19 months, 11 months, 21 months, 10 months, 21 months, 14 months, 5 months, 7 months, 14 months, 3 months, 7 months, 8 months, 7 months, 34 months, 5 months, and 16 months. So that's only one report that took more than two years to release, and nine that were released in less than a year. People love to cherry-pick the reports that take a long time to be published, but they ignore the vast majority that are released quickly. Usually the ones that take forever are because the TSB is doing a comprehensive analysis of something that can be improved upon, like when they did a bunch of testing on floor loading after the West Wind ATR crash; everyone was moaning about how slow the process was and how lazy those civil servants must be, but when it finally came out everyone seemed to be quite impressed by the efforts they went to in order to provide recommendations for improving safety.

Sounds pretty slow to me. What did floor loading have to do with the Westwind ATR crash anyway?

Likely a finding as to risk for cabin integrity.

[Dry Guy]

What do you mean? They thought the cabin may have broken up in flight?

[Capt. Underpants]

A finding as to risk is not the same as a causal finding. The risk of habitually exceeding floor loading limits is not in the single event, but in the increased potential for fatigue damage over time.

[Dry Guy]

Thanks. If they go through and search for everything wrong with the flight instead of just what caused the accident that explains why these take a long time.

[karmutzen]

NTSB preliminary. To any Navajo drivers, what's with the pitch and roll instability? Is elevator trim an electric switch on the pilot's yoke? Any ECL for a runaway?
https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/ ... 194477/pdf

[pelmet]

While a trim runaway is a possibility, people have tried to take off with full trim settings(the report did say that post-recovery examination of both engines revealed no evidence of any preimpact mechanical malfunctions or failures that would have precluded normal operation)

Personally, I always check the position of the trim tab on the walkaround(for those aircraft that have trim tabs). If it is in an unusual position, best to check it out right away. Then, after completing my before takeoff checklist, I check my killer items just in case I missed it on the checklist. I have taken a lot of criticism from others on this very forum for suggesting such a procedure. But it might have served this pilot very well(along with several others since that discussion).

[‘Bob’]

Do you have a checklist to check your killer items in case you forget them?

Checklists need to be made simpler, not more complex.

[pelmet]

Do you have a checklist to check your killer items in case you forget them?

Checklists need to be made simpler, not more complex.

I think it was people like Bob who made comments like this previously in that thread and now a young lady(said to be one of the most impressive of persons), possibly influenced by this type of character, is dead. So are others since that thread who would be alive if they used my advice.

viewtopic.php?t=136967

None of the critics ever seem to get around to going to the funerals.

Double check your killer items.

[cncpc]

NTSB preliminary. To any Navajo drivers, what's with the pitch and roll instability? Is elevator trim an electric switch on the pilot's yoke? Any ECL for a runaway?
https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/ ... 194477/pdf

I used to fly Navajos in LIDAR work. I've met Mark Kalus in Cornwall in what I think was his first year in the Navajo operations. Likeable guy, and as it says on the website, an honest guy with integrity. I'd be very surprised if this accident had anything to do with inadequate maintenance.

These things stand out to me from the report.

The pilot had 22 hours on Navajos, among 1800 TT. Given that LIDAR days in good weather can run up 8 or more hours a day, it is possible that she had only three or four days of flying with the company.

It seems that the observed behavior exhibited an inability to effect control in all three axis.

This aircraft, when in revenue ops, would have had tech gear installed. On this flight, that gear would likely have been taken out in Albany. I remember that involving a fair bit of cable work.

I think that the pilot seat coming unlocked, or never being locked, is in the mix of scenarios that explain this accident. No feet on the rudder pedals, likely worsened by that pitchup at runway end, perhaps scrambling to even grasp the yoke, impossible to pull the seat forward with the deck angle increased...

[cncpc]

Do you have a checklist to check your killer items in case you forget them?

Checklists need to be made simpler, not more complex.

That would require airplanes to be simpler, Bob.

I'm with Pelmet. I and I'm sure thousands of pilots, have a mental callout of gas, props, gauges at the lineup before we put the hand on throttles and light it up.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Far from the first time, if fuel…..

https://canadianaviationnews.ca/tsb-inv ... 20gasoline)%20on%20October%2014%2C

Don’t forget this one :

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/enquetes-inve ... c0134.html

[cncpc]

Neither of these involved the aircraft behaviors observed in Albany.

[Dry Guy]

after completing my before takeoff checklist, I check my killer items just in case I missed it on the checklist.

Yes, and it contains flaps twice (the first thing I check and the last). I haven't seen one item more frequently forgotten by professional pilots than takeoff flaps. Learn from other's mistakes. You'll never live long enough to make them all yourself.

[pelmet]

Far from the first time, if fuel…..

https://canadianaviationnews.ca/tsb-inv ... 20gasoline)%20on%20October%2014%2C

Don’t forget this one :

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/enquetes-inve ... c0134.html

From the report....

"a. Fuel records and airport video
revealed that the airplane was fully fueled before departing from ALB. Testing of the fuel truck
fuel revealed no contaminants."

[RatherBeFlying]

The Globe and Mail (Alberta Edition) Sat, Jul 6, 2024

ADVENTURER FOUND BEAUTY IN COLD, WILD PLACES

https://globe2go.pressreader.com/articl ... 2893906091

[Squaretail]

A mis set trim is unlikely to cause a crash of the profile of this flight. You will feel if the trim is mis set on the take off roll.

The seat travel on the normal navajo is also limited by the position of the spar, and is more robust than Cessnas problematic designs.

If i didnt know better i would say the trim is indication of a typical auto pilot error. Wouldn't be the first yoke disconnect that needed more than one push. I can think of a dozen or so AP mishandling that may result like this.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Far from the first time, if fuel…..

https://canadianaviationnews.ca/tsb-inv ... 20gasoline)%20on%20October%2014%2C

Don’t forget this one :

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/enquetes-inve ... c0134.html

From the report....

"a. Fuel records and airport video
revealed that the airplane was fully fueled before departing from ALB. Testing of the fuel truck
fuel revealed no contaminants."

Yes you’re right. I read the report. I was just commenting on fuel related engine failures shortly after take off. I’ve also personally witnessed a Navajo return back single engine to departure airport because there was a rag dropped in the tank because people were dipping it to huff gas. The rag blocked the pumps. In this particular case, it seems the fuel was of good quality

[airway]

A mis set trim is unlikely to cause a crash of the profile of this flight. You will feel if the trim is mis set on the take off roll.

The seat travel on the normal navajo is also limited by the position of the spar, and is more robust than Cessnas problematic designs.

If i didnt know better i would say the trim is indication of a typical auto pilot error. Wouldn't be the first yoke disconnect that needed more than one push. I can think of a dozen or so AP mishandling that may result like this.

On the Q400 you can't tell if the trim is mis set until you start pulling back at rotation. It is usually a non event as the pilot flying just adjusts the electric trim with the yoke switch right away. You can engage the autopilot at 1000' AGL, and you are usually in pitch at that time.

The problem I have seen, is the pilot flying engaging the autopilot when the pitch bar is above or below the pitch the airplane is at. This results in a startling quick pitch change and the the initial reaction is to push or pull on the control column before realizing the autopilot needs to be turned off first, then forgetting to release pressure on the control column before disengaging the autopilot. Then you get another startling quick pitch change.







.

[Squaretail]

On the Q400 you can't tell if the trim is mis set until you start pulling back at rotation. It is usually a non event as the pilot flying just adjusts the electric trim with the yoke switch right away. You can engage the autopilot at 1000' AGL, and you are usually in pitch at that time.

The problem I have seen, is the pilot flying engaging the autopilot when the pitch bar is above or below the pitch the airplane is at. This results in a startling quick pitch change and the the initial reaction is to push or pull on the control column before realizing the autopilot needs to be turned off first, then forgetting to release pressure on the control column before disengaging the autopilot. Then you get another startling quick pitch change.

Except we're not talking about a Q400, we're talking about a 45+ year old navajo. You will feel the trim is out as soon as you get enough speed that the elevator becomes effective' which is quick. But more importantly the accident would have happened sooner if this was the case and the pilot didnt notice the problem. The altjtude that things went wrong suggests the altitude one might typically engage the AP.

Just a guess, but we're probably also talking about a relatively primitive auto pilot. Which means its possible to engage it into a vs rate of climb it cant achieve but is going to try. In other words the trimm is going to roll all the way faster than you can say "serenity now". If the ap disconnect doesnt work on the first push, well you better be quick with the other methods of stopping it.

[cdnavater]

A mis set trim is unlikely to cause a crash of the profile of this flight. You will feel if the trim is mis set on the take off roll.

The seat travel on the normal navajo is also limited by the position of the spar, and is more robust than Cessnas problematic designs.

If i didnt know better i would say the trim is indication of a typical auto pilot error. Wouldn't be the first yoke disconnect that needed more than one push. I can think of a dozen or so AP mishandling that may result like this.

On the Q400 you can't tell if the trim is mis set until you start pulling back at rotation. It is usually a non event as the pilot flying just adjusts the electric trim with the yoke switch right away. You can engage the autopilot at 1000' AGL, and you are usually in pitch at that time.

The problem I have seen, is the pilot flying engaging the autopilot when the pitch bar is above or below the pitch the airplane is at. This results in a startling quick pitch change and the the initial reaction is to push or pull on the control column before realizing the autopilot needs to be turned off first, then forgetting to release pressure on the control column before disengaging the autopilot. Then you get another startling quick pitch change.




.

Jesus, who is flying airplanes these days, I honestly feel like the quality of pilots has gone severely down hill in the last few years!
I think I’m going to start working on a book called “The Wrong Stuff”, it sums up what I’m seeing. Some pilot shouldn’t be trusted with a bicycle let alone an airplane

[cncpc]

What does that shart have to do with this accident?

[pelmet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89eUKcEZxgM

Juan Browne Video