Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

[newlygrounded]

First Officers are basically living in poverty in YYZ or YVR.

$85,000 in year 1. $90,000 in year 2. Without flying a single hour of overtime. And in year 3 you're on formula pay.

Poverty?

Not even close.

Go have a look at Stats Canada. The average annual wage for the 10 million hourly workers in Canada is $51,000. The average annual wage for the 7 million salaried workers in Canada is $87,000. Maybe you should ask them how they get by (and most of them support families)?

If you're in the habit of spending 5%, 10% or 15% more than you earn every month, because you have to have the latest iPhone Pro, and Macbook Air laptop, and a real nice car, and you've buried yourself in mortgage debt before having the means to carry that debt, then things are only going to get worse for you as you get older. Because 10% more than $200,000 each year is a deeper hole than it is for $85,000/year.

You want to see real poverty? Go take a walk in the East side of downtown Vancouver.

Averages are useless, you'd have to see the MEDIAN to get a decent yard stick. Of all those people above, how many are forced to live in some of the top 10 most expensive cities in the world?

How many of them spent close to $100,000 on training?

The iphone and mortgage parts are a red herring, the income to housing ration used to be 4x now it's 11x

I cannot for the life of me see how arbitration would be worse then the shitty contract that was agreed to.

That's because you've never been burned by an arbitrator. Look, I voted "NO" but did so knowing there was a very real chance of getting less than the TA terms by doing so.

You can keep posting the line about "not possibly getting less in arbitration" but history has shown otherwise.

Look at how some of the public sector arbitration meetings have gone? One of the groups got roughly 2-4% per year.

[Launchpad1]

Right, so fear then. You are all cowards. No we get it.

FYI I voted no because I thought we could do better.

I recognize though that there was a chance we might have gotten worse because of arbitration. Everyone has different risk tolerances due to themselves and their personal circumstances.

Are you in your twenties and don't have a family to feed? It's easier to be brave when you have less to fear.

[FelixGustof]

First Officers are basically living in poverty in YYZ or YVR.

$85,000 in year 1. $90,000 in year 2. Without flying a single hour of overtime. And in year 3 you're on formula pay.

Poverty?

Not even close.

Go have a look at Stats Canada. The average annual wage for the 10 million hourly workers in Canada is $51,000. The average annual wage for the 7 million salaried workers in Canada is $87,000. Maybe you should ask them how they get by (and most of them support families)?

If you're in the habit of spending 5%, 10% or 15% more than you earn every month, because you have to have the latest iPhone Pro, and Macbook Air laptop, and a real nice car, and you've buried yourself in mortgage debt before having the means to carry that debt, then things are only going to get worse for you as you get older. Because 10% more than $200,000 each year is a deeper hole than it is for $85,000/year.

You want to see real poverty? Go take a walk in the East side of downtown Vancouver.

Air Canada pilots are debating what "poverty" is?

That is some really pathetic shit!

Maybe you have lost the plot on what being a professional pilot means

[GeoffPilot]

Ahh yessss

The great "are Air Canada pilots really in poverty" debate

I wonder if United pilots have these sort of discussions

[Landingstrip]

Right, so fear then. You are all cowards. No we get it.

FYI I voted no because I thought we could do better.

I recognize though that there was a chance we might have gotten worse because of arbitration. Everyone has different risk tolerances due to themselves and their personal circumstances.

Are you in your twenties and don't have a family to feed? It's easier to be brave when you have less to fear.

Being brave isn't about doing whats easy. It's about having balls when things AREN'T easy. I'll be damned if I would ever had voted yes to this contract under any circumstances. Everyone should stop trying to defend this turd of a contract its just sad. I better not hear any complaints from any pilots that voted yes thats for sure. Lie in your bed.

[pitottubey]

Right, so fear then. You are all cowards. No we get it.

FYI I voted no because I thought we could do better.

I recognize though that there was a chance we might have gotten worse because of arbitration. Everyone has different risk tolerances due to themselves and their personal circumstances.

Are you in your twenties and don't have a family to feed? It's easier to be brave when you have less to fear.

I'm glad you stood up like a man. Pat on the back. Most of your co-workers didn't. Theres a reason American pilots are treated are better and you're seeing it now. And no, not because it's because they have "less to fear".

[flying4dollars]

I refer you all to this survey I did.

viewtopic.php?t=218831

It wasn't happiness with the new contract that got it accepted by the majority, it was the legitimate concern of government intervention.

The issue lies with the Canadian governments history of meddling in union negotiations. Of course in very rare instances they have to but they meddle to much and to often.

Right, so fear then. You are all cowards. No we get it.

Who's all?

[lowoleo22]

I basically agree with all you state however what 705 in Canada would you be looking at? They all pay garbage wages in the beginning and some are still worse than AC in the long term. I might say AT but they still pay basically AC wages in the beginning as well.

There's more than wages to consider. Seniority, QOL, pension are all things to look at. If you join AC now you will be in the lower half of seniority for the next 20 years. Sure you'll get a sweet pension, but you'll be working full blocks forever to pay for it. Join Porter for example, you'll be in the top third of seniority for the majority of your career. If you're just looking at initial wages, Flair is offering 90k year 1. Morningstar also offers 90k on their 757 year 1. Some 703 operators are paying 100k plus if you're willing to work in the North. Lots of other options out there.

[newlygrounded]

Right, so fear then. You are all cowards. No we get it.

FYI I voted no because I thought we could do better.

I recognize though that there was a chance we might have gotten worse because of arbitration. Everyone has different risk tolerances due to themselves and their personal circumstances.

Are you in your twenties and don't have a family to feed? It's easier to be brave when you have less to fear.

I'm glad you stood up like a man. Pat on the back. Most of your co-workers didn't. Theres a reason American pilots are treated are better and you're seeing it now. And no, not because it's because they have "less to fear".

Personally I do think we have more to fear, there is no other company comparable to AC in the country, in the US you have the 3 Majors and more in the past. The US also doesn't have a toilet paper constitution

[Landingstrip]

I refer you all to this survey I did.

viewtopic.php?t=218831

It wasn't happiness with the new contract that got it accepted by the majority, it was the legitimate concern of government intervention.

The issue lies with the Canadian governments history of meddling in union negotiations. Of course in very rare instances they have to but they meddle to much and to often.

Right, so fear then. You are all cowards. No we get it.

Who's all?

All the pilots that voted out of fear.

[newlygrounded]

Right, so fear then. You are all cowards. No we get it.

Who's all?

All the pilots that voted out of fear.

What makes you think the Arbitrator would have given more?

[newlygrounded]

Right, so fear then. You are all cowards. No we get it.

Who's all?

All the pilots that voted out of fear.

What makes you think the Arbitrator would have given more?

[Tbayer2021]

Who's all?

All the pilots that voted out of fear.

What makes you think the Arbitrator would have given more?

Maybe the arbitrator wouldn't have given more. But what makes you think it would have gone to arbitration after a no vote? The point is that a potentially once in a lifetime opportunity was squandered. The environment has never been and will likely never be anywhere near as good for the pilots to make a stand as it was.

Did you ever think extracting the most gains was ever going to happen without a strike? Look at the Boeing situation. At least some people do have the balls to stand up for themselves. Hasn't even been a month and the company announced a large stock buy-back. You honestly think there wasn't more money on the table? Keep telling yourselves that voting yes was the right thing to do if it helps you sleep at night. But make no mistake, you threw away the best chance you will ever have.

[newlygrounded]

All the pilots that voted out of fear.

What makes you think the Arbitrator would have given more?

Maybe the arbitrator wouldn't have given more. But what makes you think it would have gone to arbitration after a no vote? The point is that a potentially once in a lifetime opportunity was squandered. The environment has never been and will likely never be anywhere near as good for the pilots to make a stand as it was.

Did you ever think extracting the most gains was ever going to happen without a strike? Look at the Boeing situation. At least some people do have the balls to stand up for themselves. Hasn't even been a month and the company announced a large stock buy-back. You honestly think there wasn't more money on the table? Keep telling yourselves that voting yes was the right thing to do if it helps you sleep at night. But make no mistake, you threw away the best chance you will ever have.

The labor minister being in the room, as well as union stewards saying the alpa folks thought an immediate no would go to arbitration.

[Tbayer2021]

What makes you think the Arbitrator would have given more?

Maybe the arbitrator wouldn't have given more. But what makes you think it would have gone to arbitration after a no vote? The point is that a potentially once in a lifetime opportunity was squandered. The environment has never been and will likely never be anywhere near as good for the pilots to make a stand as it was.

Did you ever think extracting the most gains was ever going to happen without a strike? Look at the Boeing situation. At least some people do have the balls to stand up for themselves. Hasn't even been a month and the company announced a large stock buy-back. You honestly think there wasn't more money on the table? Keep telling yourselves that voting yes was the right thing to do if it helps you sleep at night. But make no mistake, you threw away the best chance you will ever have.

The labor minister being in the room, as well as union stewards saying the alpa folks thought an immediate no would go to arbitration.

Imagine wanting change without being willing to do what causes change.

[newlygrounded]

Maybe the arbitrator wouldn't have given more. But what makes you think it would have gone to arbitration after a no vote? The point is that a potentially once in a lifetime opportunity was squandered. The environment has never been and will likely never be anywhere near as good for the pilots to make a stand as it was.

Did you ever think extracting the most gains was ever going to happen without a strike? Look at the Boeing situation. At least some people do have the balls to stand up for themselves. Hasn't even been a month and the company announced a large stock buy-back. You honestly think there wasn't more money on the table? Keep telling yourselves that voting yes was the right thing to do if it helps you sleep at night. But make no mistake, you threw away the best chance you will ever have.

The labor minister being in the room, as well as union stewards saying the alpa folks thought an immediate no would go to arbitration.

Imagine wanting change without being willing to do what causes change.

The threat of arbitration is very real, nobody has been able to dispute this and I trust Alpa and their massive law firm lawyers over random people on AV. Even in the US the gains took several contracts to build up to what they have today.

Look at the toilet paper charter and the piss poor job the regulators have done in this country? CN asked for an extension that should have been denied. Instead it was granted so they'd expire at the same time as CP forcing the governments hand.

[Tbayer2021]

The labor minister being in the room, as well as union stewards saying the alpa folks thought an immediate no would go to arbitration.

Imagine wanting change without being willing to do what causes change.

The threat of arbitration is very real, nobody has been able to dispute this and I trust Alpa and their massive law firm lawyers over random people on AV. Even in the US the gains took several contracts to build up to what they have today.

Look at the toilet paper charter and the piss poor job the regulators have done in this country? CN asked for an extension that should have been denied. Instead it was granted so they'd expire at the same time as CP forcing the governments hand.

Then you'll forever cave under these threats because they will always be there. Are you waiting for the day you'll be able to make a decision without the risk of something else happening? Good luck.

[newlygrounded]

Imagine wanting change without being willing to do what causes change.

The threat of arbitration is very real, nobody has been able to dispute this and I trust Alpa and their massive law firm lawyers over random people on AV. Even in the US the gains took several contracts to build up to what they have today.

Look at the toilet paper charter and the piss poor job the regulators have done in this country? CN asked for an extension that should have been denied. Instead it was granted so they'd expire at the same time as CP forcing the governments hand.

Then you'll forever cave under these threats because they will always be there. Are you waiting for the day you'll be able to make a decision without the risk of something else happening? Good luck.

What makes you think you know better than the Labour lawyers they hired? I've hired professionals for issues in the past. I understand they are pretty much guaranteed to be more knowledge than me.

[Tbayer2021]

The threat of arbitration is very real, nobody has been able to dispute this and I trust Alpa and their massive law firm lawyers over random people on AV. Even in the US the gains took several contracts to build up to what they have today.

Look at the toilet paper charter and the piss poor job the regulators have done in this country? CN asked for an extension that should have been denied. Instead it was granted so they'd expire at the same time as CP forcing the governments hand.

Then you'll forever cave under these threats because they will always be there. Are you waiting for the day you'll be able to make a decision without the risk of something else happening? Good luck.

What makes you think you know better than the Labour lawyers they hired? I've hired professionals for issues in the past. I understand they are pretty much guaranteed to be more knowledge than me.

I'm not saying I know better. What I'm saying is that there has never been a better time for AC pilots to finally make a stand, and chances are there won't be one anywhere near as good as this one. Was there a risk? Absolutely! But you'll never be able to twist the company's arm without taking a serious leap. You're saying that the risk of government intervention is what convinced you to vote yes. What you're also saying is that you'll always vote yes because that risk will always be there.

If it's not intervention, it will be something else. But you'll never be in a position where you can potentially force the company into giving more without shouldering some risk. If that's the day you're waiting for, then get comfortable.

There was plenty more on the table, the company just showed us by announcing a large buy back program of up to 10% of outstanding shares. The pilots were once again out maneuvered.

[newlygrounded]

Then you'll forever cave under these threats because they will always be there. Are you waiting for the day you'll be able to make a decision without the risk of something else happening? Good luck.

What makes you think you know better than the Labour lawyers they hired? I've hired professionals for issues in the past. I understand they are pretty much guaranteed to be more knowledge than me.

I'm not saying I know better. What I'm saying is that there has never been a better time for AC pilots to finally make a stand, and chances are there won't be one anywhere near as good as this one. Was there a risk? Absolutely! But you'll never be able to twist the company's arm without taking a serious leap. You're saying that the risk of government intervention is what convinced you to vote yes. What you're also saying is that you'll always vote yes because that risk will always be there.

If it's not intervention, it will be something else. But you'll never be in a position where you can potentially force the company into giving more without shouldering some risk. If that's the day you're waiting for, then get comfortable.

There was plenty more on the table, the company just showed us by announcing a large buy back program of up to 10% of outstanding shares. The pilots were once again out maneuvered.

I'm not going to say this again because I don't want to crowd the thread but at the end of the day you can either wing it OR you can ask an expert for their advice and go from there.

[Tbayer2021]

What makes you think you know better than the Labour lawyers they hired? I've hired professionals for issues in the past. I understand they are pretty much guaranteed to be more knowledge than me.

I'm not saying I know better. What I'm saying is that there has never been a better time for AC pilots to finally make a stand, and chances are there won't be one anywhere near as good as this one. Was there a risk? Absolutely! But you'll never be able to twist the company's arm without taking a serious leap. You're saying that the risk of government intervention is what convinced you to vote yes. What you're also saying is that you'll always vote yes because that risk will always be there.

If it's not intervention, it will be something else. But you'll never be in a position where you can potentially force the company into giving more without shouldering some risk. If that's the day you're waiting for, then get comfortable.

There was plenty more on the table, the company just showed us by announcing a large buy back program of up to 10% of outstanding shares. The pilots were once again out maneuvered.

I'm not going to say this again because I don't want to crowd the thread but at the end of the day you can either wing it OR you can ask an expert for their advice and go from there.

Absolutely! But those experts will never tell you to take the risk lest you blame them if it doesn't work out.

[Mr. North]

Lots of bluster from ignorant keyboard warriors on here. This "turd deal" just so happens to be the largest collective agreement (per capita) in Canadian history, with a top to bottom 42% raise! Who else in Canada is seeing raises like that? Did we get everything we wanted? No. Were we able to fix 20 years of ACPA damage? Of course not. But make no mistake, this is a significant agreement that represents a major course correction for our careers and the profession.

I'm not saying I know better. What I'm saying is that there has never been a better time for AC pilots to finally make a stand, and chances are there won't be one anywhere near as good as this one. Was there a risk? Absolutely! But you'll never be able to twist the company's arm without taking a serious leap. You're saying that the risk of government intervention is what convinced you to vote yes. What you're also saying is that you'll always vote yes because that risk will always be there.

There was plenty more on the table, the company just showed us by announcing a large buy back program of up to 10% of outstanding shares.

How much more of that money do you think they'd give us if we set the park brake? At $1.9B every 1% pay raise from there was going to be another $100 million. Tell me, how many more millions would they throw our way once we start striking? And keep in mind, the government is there, watching the company make their largest offer (by far) that we then reject? The government sent the CP/CN engineers back to work in 15 hours, and they were asking for much less. You think they'd sit there and watch us tank a deal of this size and cause travel chaos for millions of Canadians?

Like you said it all comes down to risk. So are you willing to risk a 42% raise (and all other improvements) for 5,500 pilots over what? An additional 2-5% in pay? When the odds heavily favor government intervention? Spend another year on the 10 year deal as we wind our way through arbitration? You think we'd get retro pay on the other side? ADG? YOS fix? Hahaha!

Sure, some folks want to burn the place down and send a fucking message, I get it. Unfortunately, proving a point doesn't pay the bills, nor does it help the pilots or the families who depend on them.

Take your frustrations up with the government and their decades long history of intervention.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Lots of bluster from ignorant keyboard warriors on here. This "turd deal" just so happens to be the largest collective agreement (per capita) in Canadian history, with a top to bottom 42% raise! Who else in Canada is seeing raises like that? Did we get everything we wanted? No. Were we able to fix 20 years of ACPA damage? Of course not. But make no mistake, this is a significant agreement that represents a major course correction for our careers and the profession.

I'm not saying I know better. What I'm saying is that there has never been a better time for AC pilots to finally make a stand, and chances are there won't be one anywhere near as good as this one. Was there a risk? Absolutely! But you'll never be able to twist the company's arm without taking a serious leap. You're saying that the risk of government intervention is what convinced you to vote yes. What you're also saying is that you'll always vote yes because that risk will always be there.

There was plenty more on the table, the company just showed us by announcing a large buy back program of up to 10% of outstanding shares.

How much more of that money do you think they'd give us if we set the park brake? At $1.9B every 1% pay raise from there was going to be another $100 million. Tell me, how many more millions would they throw our way once we start striking? And keep in mind, the government is there, watching the company make their largest offer (by far) that we then reject? The government sent the CP/CN engineers back to work in 15 hours, and they were asking for much less. You think they'd sit there and watch us tank a deal of this size and cause travel chaos for millions of Canadians?

Like you said it all comes down to risk. So are you willing to risk a 42% raise (and all other improvements) for 5,500 pilots over what? An additional 2-5% in pay? When the odds heavily favor government intervention? Spend another year on the 10 year deal as we wind our way through arbitration? You think we'd get retro pay on the other side? ADG? YOS fix? Hahaha!

Sure, some folks want to burn the place down and send a fucking message, I get it. Unfortunately, proving a point doesn't pay the bills, nor does it help the pilots or the families who depend on them.

Take your frustrations up with the government and their decades long history of intervention.

You do realize the stage was set when a 10 yrs deal that solidified bankruptcy contracts was the precedent?

This deal was always going to be the "largest in Canadian history"? (My question, is which deal we beat...notice how that piece is missing??)

The comparables were staggering. A low cost carrier founded in 1995 had pilots making more than a global legacy airline. The Execs of Air Canada were happily comparing themselves to United/Delta and the likes.

And what's crazy, is this same Canadian low cost carrier STILL has many improvements over Air Canada founded the same time as United & Delta and we have pilots OK with this. Like know your value man.

Our biggest enemy was always going to be ourselves and look at some of these posts defending this VERY marginal contract that should make all of us embarrassed. We are not getting a chance like that EVER AGAIN.

Let's all stay in reality we could have achieved more but we completely pussed out. Like we always have

[pitottubey]

Lots of bluster from ignorant keyboard warriors on here. This "turd deal" just so happens to be the largest collective agreement (per capita) in Canadian history, with a top to bottom 42% raise! Who else in Canada is seeing raises like that? Did we get everything we wanted? No. Were we able to fix 20 years of ACPA damage? Of course not. But make no mistake, this is a significant agreement that represents a major course correction for our careers and the profession.

I'm not saying I know better. What I'm saying is that there has never been a better time for AC pilots to finally make a stand, and chances are there won't be one anywhere near as good as this one. Was there a risk? Absolutely! But you'll never be able to twist the company's arm without taking a serious leap. You're saying that the risk of government intervention is what convinced you to vote yes. What you're also saying is that you'll always vote yes because that risk will always be there.

There was plenty more on the table, the company just showed us by announcing a large buy back program of up to 10% of outstanding shares.

How much more of that money do you think they'd give us if we set the park brake? At $1.9B every 1% pay raise from there was going to be another $100 million. Tell me, how many more millions would they throw our way once we start striking? And keep in mind, the government is there, watching the company make their largest offer (by far) that we then reject? The government sent the CP/CN engineers back to work in 15 hours, and they were asking for much less. You think they'd sit there and watch us tank a deal of this size and cause travel chaos for millions of Canadians?

Like you said it all comes down to risk. So are you willing to risk a 42% raise (and all other improvements) for 5,500 pilots over what? An additional 2-5% in pay? When the odds heavily favor government intervention? Spend another year on the 10 year deal as we wind our way through arbitration? You think we'd get retro pay on the other side? ADG? YOS fix? Hahaha!

Sure, some folks want to burn the place down and send a fucking message, I get it. Unfortunately, proving a point doesn't pay the bills, nor does it help the pilots or the families who depend on them.

Take your frustrations up with the government and their decades long history of intervention.

Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they're ignorant. And keyboard warriors? Were we're not saying we're big tough guys and want to fight you in a parking lot, we just disagree and lots of people think that people should have voted no. GOOD THINGS TAKE SOME RISK. Yes it could have ended up being worse, and it could have ended up being better! We don't know that. All we know is that we voted for a marginal contract. And demonstrated to executives for future contract negotiations, we don't drive a hard bargain! We will cave easily and have no teeth. They won't take us seriously in the next round of negotiations. AC pilots had the most leverage in possibly history and you took the first deal on the table?? Caved under pressure.

Part of my and other people's issue in the contract is also what was gained. Why so much to the top pay scales?? Why not QOL gains?? Haven't you realized yet that paying captains enormous sums undermines contract negotiations? Headlines like "air Canada pilots make 300k, and that's not enough for them??" It's all a game of public support and sympathy and continuing to give big raises to the top scales doesn't garner that. Focus on QOL and lower end pay and you won't continue to erode public sympathy.

For this reason I don't think all of the yes votes were out of fear, I think a small percentage were very senior pilots that already have QOL and just wanted an easy pay bump at the top steps. So greedy basically. The whole thing stinks.

[newlygrounded]

Lots of bluster from ignorant keyboard warriors on here. This "turd deal" just so happens to be the largest collective agreement (per capita) in Canadian history, with a top to bottom 42% raise! Who else in Canada is seeing raises like that? Did we get everything we wanted? No. Were we able to fix 20 years of ACPA damage? Of course not. But make no mistake, this is a significant agreement that represents a major course correction for our careers and the profession.

I'm not saying I know better. What I'm saying is that there has never been a better time for AC pilots to finally make a stand, and chances are there won't be one anywhere near as good as this one. Was there a risk? Absolutely! But you'll never be able to twist the company's arm without taking a serious leap. You're saying that the risk of government intervention is what convinced you to vote yes. What you're also saying is that you'll always vote yes because that risk will always be there.

There was plenty more on the table, the company just showed us by announcing a large buy back program of up to 10% of outstanding shares.

Thw
How much more of that money do you think they'd give us if we set the park brake? At $1.9B every 1% pay raise from there was going to be another $100 million. Tell me, how many more millions would they throw our way once we start striking? And keep in mind, the government is there, watching the company make their largest offer (by far) that we then reject? The government sent the CP/CN engineers back to work in 15 hours, and they were asking for much less. You think they'd sit there and watch us tank a deal of this size and cause travel chaos for millions of Canadians?

Like you said it all comes down to risk. So are you willing to risk a 42% raise (and all other improvements) for 5,500 pilots over what? An additional 2-5% in pay? When the odds heavily favor government intervention? Spend another year on the 10 year deal as we wind our way through arbitration? You think we'd get retro pay on the other side? ADG? YOS fix? Hahaha!

Sure, some folks want to burn the place down and send a fucking message, I get it. Unfortunately, proving a point doesn't pay the bills, nor does it help the pilots or the families who depend on them.

Take your frustrations up with the government and their decades long history of intervention.

Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they're ignorant. And keyboard warriors? Were we're not saying we're big tough guys and want to fight you in a parking lot, we just disagree and lots of people think that people should have voted no. GOOD THINGS TAKE SOME RISK. Yes it could have ended up being worse, and it could have ended up being better! We don't know that. All we know is that we voted for a marginal contract. And demonstrated to executives for future contract negotiations, we don't drive a hard bargain! We will cave easily and have no teeth. They won't take us seriously in the next round of negotiations. AC pilots had the most leverage in possibly history and you took the first deal on the table?? Caved under pressure.

Part of my and other people's issue in the contract is also what was gained. Why so much to the top pay scales?? Why not QOL gains?? Haven't you realized yet that paying captains enormous sums undermines contract negotiations? Headlines like "air Canada pilots make 300k, and that's not enough for them??" It's all a game of public support and sympathy and continuing to give big raises to the top scales doesn't garner that. Focus on QOL and lower end pay and you won't continue to erode public sympathy.

For this reason I don't think all of the yes votes were out of fear, I think a small percentage were very senior pilots that already have QOL and just wanted an easy pay bump at the top steps. So greedy basically. The whole thing stinks.

The QOL gains were shit but I think that's because not enough people would value them.

What makes you think they wouldn't be sent to arbitration?