"This position has become vacant following the promotion of the
incumbent to a flight line position with Air Mikisew. It is suited to a
low-time pilot who is prepared to spend some time on the ramp whilst
proving his/her worth as a future pilot with Air Mikisew.
Salary:$11.50 per hour to start "
Tim Hortons was advertising $13/hr in McMurray this time last year, I hear it's higher now.... And you don't need to drop $50K to qualify.
Not sure how you live on $11.50/hr in Ft. Mac.
STL
Air Mikisew Job posting
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
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sky's the limit
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R2000/1830
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sky's the limit
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Switchfoot
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Re: Air Mikisew Job posting
OR, for anyone chosing to serve coffee and donuts, you could come FURTHER south in Alberta and earn $16.00 per hour at Tim Horton's! That's right, $16 bucks an hour full-time.sky's the limit wrote: Tim Hortons was advertising $13/hr in McMurray this time last year, I hear it's higher now.... And you don't need to drop $50K to qualify.
Not sure how you live on $11.50/hr in Ft. Mac.
STL
Switchfoot.
Last edited by Switchfoot on Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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twindriver
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sky's the limit
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Twindriver,
When will we in this industry stop justifying poor conditions/wages etc., by saying, "it's worse elsewhere..." The point here is that it could, and should be, a whole lot better. Constantly comparing wages, schedules and maintainance issues with the lowest available denominator is getting us nowhere.
I've heard good things from line pilots at Air Mikisew over the years, flown with you a few times, and it seems to be a decent company - that's what makes this so surprising and disappointing.
STL
When will we in this industry stop justifying poor conditions/wages etc., by saying, "it's worse elsewhere..." The point here is that it could, and should be, a whole lot better. Constantly comparing wages, schedules and maintainance issues with the lowest available denominator is getting us nowhere.
I've heard good things from line pilots at Air Mikisew over the years, flown with you a few times, and it seems to be a decent company - that's what makes this so surprising and disappointing.
STL
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fingersmac
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Kernal Klink
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flyinthebug
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Kernal Klink... NO ONE is raking in the cash in this industry. AC keeps Milton up top for a reason?... yet they still lose money year after year. Air Mikisew or any other operator faces the same challenges and obstacles in making a buck. Thats just reality. Everyone is suffering since 9/11.
That said, its sad that a ramp position in such a high priced place to live isnt more in tune with reality. They pay fairly on the line im told, so is this how its gonna be? Rampies in YPA start @ 7.50$ an hour. 1/2 the cost of living as FT Mac so is this "industry standard" and acceptable now?
Its up to the new guys/gals coming up through the ramp to "demand" to be paid fairly for the position. Maybe pointing out the 13$ an hour job @ Tim`s to the boss would help? Just understand, no airline I can think of is raking in cash... but the employer also has a responsibility to offer a livable wage in this or any industry.
Good luck fly safe all
That said, its sad that a ramp position in such a high priced place to live isnt more in tune with reality. They pay fairly on the line im told, so is this how its gonna be? Rampies in YPA start @ 7.50$ an hour. 1/2 the cost of living as FT Mac so is this "industry standard" and acceptable now?
Its up to the new guys/gals coming up through the ramp to "demand" to be paid fairly for the position. Maybe pointing out the 13$ an hour job @ Tim`s to the boss would help? Just understand, no airline I can think of is raking in cash... but the employer also has a responsibility to offer a livable wage in this or any industry.
Good luck fly safe all
Yeah 11.50 sounds terrible, Maybe try Northern Sask where you'll make $7.00 an hour. Here's an idea we'll get two low time pilot's to start working. One at Timmy Ho's and the other on the ramp. We'll take the extra two dollars an hour, that the donut slanger is making, and put it aside for a PPC. The first one to get flying wins.
How the hell is Air MIkisew up in Fort Mac suffering from 911?
If you haven't noticed things are booming in the oil industry. That and air ambulance work is pretty steady. All they are doing is what they have been doing from day one. Having a 6 month to ? month interview process and getting cheap labour out of the deal. That will not change.
If you haven't noticed things are booming in the oil industry. That and air ambulance work is pretty steady. All they are doing is what they have been doing from day one. Having a 6 month to ? month interview process and getting cheap labour out of the deal. That will not change.
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cheyennell
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CaptainHaddock
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$11.50 per hour to start
What's so bad about that,comparing it to Tim Hortons is a bit lame, by working at tim hortons you just have a job at tim hortons, end story. working the ramp you have the ability to move forward on your career.You could compare the guy flying as a twin otter/Metro/king air/etc captain making $60000 with a guy working as a plumber. Apples and oranges.
What's so bad about that,comparing it to Tim Hortons is a bit lame, by working at tim hortons you just have a job at tim hortons, end story. working the ramp you have the ability to move forward on your career.You could compare the guy flying as a twin otter/Metro/king air/etc captain making $60000 with a guy working as a plumber. Apples and oranges.
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DeskDriver
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Many random thoughts:
Ask yourself this: Are you working a job, or a career?
If Job; Go to Tim's.
If career, keep reading.
If you're in aviation to build a career, ask yourself this: Is it the first 5 years of your career that is important, or is it the middle bit, or is it the end bit? This is a very important question. You really have to figure this out before you even write your resume.
Now, based on the above, consider sacrifice. Consider what you want to do with yourself. Consider where you want to live. Consider what you want to have. From there, decide the path you want to take. That's your choice, not something that 250 hour wonders at AvCanada can help you make. Can Air Mikisew get you to where you want to be? I have no bloody idea; nobody here knows where you want to be. Nobody here should tell you; one way or the other.
Air Mikisew is a stable company. It has great people. If you're looking at dollars, then go to university. If you're looking to fly anything, go for the fastest ramp-to-pilot gig you can get. If you're looking at a career, then figure out what your destination is before anything else.
Mik is a fine company. And Fort McMurray is a far better city than what you get from reading The National Post. But you're not going to make a million dollars in your first venture into aviation. Your best bet is to make your first venture count.
DD
Ask yourself this: Are you working a job, or a career?
If Job; Go to Tim's.
If career, keep reading.
If you're in aviation to build a career, ask yourself this: Is it the first 5 years of your career that is important, or is it the middle bit, or is it the end bit? This is a very important question. You really have to figure this out before you even write your resume.
Now, based on the above, consider sacrifice. Consider what you want to do with yourself. Consider where you want to live. Consider what you want to have. From there, decide the path you want to take. That's your choice, not something that 250 hour wonders at AvCanada can help you make. Can Air Mikisew get you to where you want to be? I have no bloody idea; nobody here knows where you want to be. Nobody here should tell you; one way or the other.
Air Mikisew is a stable company. It has great people. If you're looking at dollars, then go to university. If you're looking to fly anything, go for the fastest ramp-to-pilot gig you can get. If you're looking at a career, then figure out what your destination is before anything else.
Mik is a fine company. And Fort McMurray is a far better city than what you get from reading The National Post. But you're not going to make a million dollars in your first venture into aviation. Your best bet is to make your first venture count.
DD
You've finally made it in Aviation when you nolonger work in a city which begins with Fort, Port, Prince, or Saint. Or leave aviation and stay in a Fort.
sky's the limit,
I agree totally with you man. I mean why compare us only with better or worse, when there should be a standard in this industry, so that a guy working on a ramp, or instructor flying or who ever should be able to support itself and pay bills at least, and not dig him/herself in the whole while waiting for that right seat.
I do also realize that there are a lot worse places than 11.50/hr but then again this is Fort Mac.!
I agree totally with you man. I mean why compare us only with better or worse, when there should be a standard in this industry, so that a guy working on a ramp, or instructor flying or who ever should be able to support itself and pay bills at least, and not dig him/herself in the whole while waiting for that right seat.
I do also realize that there are a lot worse places than 11.50/hr but then again this is Fort Mac.!
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DeskDriver
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So, umm....Mig29 wrote:sky's the limit,
I agree totally with you man. I mean why compare us only with better or worse, when there should be a standard in this industry, so that a guy working on a ramp, or instructor flying or who ever should be able to support itself and pay bills at least, and not dig him/herself in the whole while waiting for that right seat.!
Ever worked *outside* of aviation?
It is a crazy fucking world outside of aviation. You have to bloody work *hard* sometimes where you don't *want* to work. Then, and people really should unionize over this, they get paid *CRAP*. It takes *YEARS* of proving yourself to even get to a decent wage. Then, you're asked to sign a *contract* whereby you have to stick with a company for a cetain time. Worse still, if you @#$! up, you're let go of. Ask a person doing a PhD how they manage to get buy on a 30K per year grant (this, after about 12 + 4 + 2 + X years of education). Oh, and they have to do a TC Ride after that. Only the TC ride is in the form of a disertation which is a make or break lifetime potential for black-ball event.
Oh yeah, and it costs about $55,000 just to get looked at with any kind of degree. And even then you're looking at about 5 years of work experience to get noticed. -Fun excercise, try asking entry wages for PEng's and the time to get to 50K income circa 1998-.
But no. Forget that crap. *You* want to have a head-start in life. So you figure *you* want to be looked at more seriously. You've watched the food network lots. You figure you'll be a Chef. Hmm, more money, more challange, crap lifestyle. You end up working from 2Am to 10AM cutting veggies and getting yelled at. The Good news is that you get staff discount on beer and might be able to squeek the odd carrot down your gullet
Trades, that's what we'll do to get what our god-given right to money is. We'll become pipe-fitters. Honest trade. Decent dough. *CRAP* we have to pay for our education, buy tools, apprentice, work. And *Mother Crap* if we don't work hard and don't make sacrifices, we wash out?
If you're hoping to get great cash for little effort without sacrifice, and never having to prove your worth, brother you're in the wrong universe. This crappy world we live in!!!!! It sucks so bad that you don't get a free ride to anywhere!
Last edited by DeskDriver on Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You've finally made it in Aviation when you nolonger work in a city which begins with Fort, Port, Prince, or Saint. Or leave aviation and stay in a Fort.
Not at all man, not at all 
I agree, there are worse things out there...and yes, I have done them since I was a kid, for pocket monet, school etc. Other times, I stepped down (ie. got laid-off) from well payed aviation jobs, to s**y temp agency work and I didn't care...cause I have a goal.
I got to admit, I laughed a little reading your post, because it just seemed little personal, from your experience? Maybe I am wrong, but just so you know, we are on same page, and all I said it should be standardized on how we get payed in this industry...thats all.
I agree, there are worse things out there...and yes, I have done them since I was a kid, for pocket monet, school etc. Other times, I stepped down (ie. got laid-off) from well payed aviation jobs, to s**y temp agency work and I didn't care...cause I have a goal.
I got to admit, I laughed a little reading your post, because it just seemed little personal, from your experience? Maybe I am wrong, but just so you know, we are on same page, and all I said it should be standardized on how we get payed in this industry...thats all.
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DeskDriver
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Not personal at all. And not directed at you. More a random rant focused at youth who feel that the world owes them something.
Me, I worked my ass off and finally get to have the privledge of working even harder. The more money you make, the more the risk. The game is about challanges, not gifts. Working your ass off on the ramp leads to working your ass off in a 206 to working your ass off basically forever. I'm not a pilot so I can say that the life theme really is about working hard and working honest.
This leads back to my earlier post. Where do you want to be, what do you want to achieve. That's what the question should be about.
From my experience? Some aspects, yes. Some, no. I try to learn from my mistakes. I prefer to learn from other people's mistakes.
Ramp, or entry level jobs in general, will launch one on their career. No single path is better than any other path. Find the right fit, trust one's gut, know where the destination is, and bust one's ass to get there.
Me, I worked my ass off and finally get to have the privledge of working even harder. The more money you make, the more the risk. The game is about challanges, not gifts. Working your ass off on the ramp leads to working your ass off in a 206 to working your ass off basically forever. I'm not a pilot so I can say that the life theme really is about working hard and working honest.
This leads back to my earlier post. Where do you want to be, what do you want to achieve. That's what the question should be about.
From my experience? Some aspects, yes. Some, no. I try to learn from my mistakes. I prefer to learn from other people's mistakes.
Ramp, or entry level jobs in general, will launch one on their career. No single path is better than any other path. Find the right fit, trust one's gut, know where the destination is, and bust one's ass to get there.
You've finally made it in Aviation when you nolonger work in a city which begins with Fort, Port, Prince, or Saint. Or leave aviation and stay in a Fort.
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oldncold
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air mik
recently Fort McMoney became Canada's most expensive city
1600per month rent that right folks rent for a 1 bedroom pad and it is not the penthouse.
food higher cause to get the folks to flip burgers /it costs more .mikisew gave up trying to have permanent crews living in fort mcmoney and rotates them out of edmonton - at least they were a few months back
pay for capt on a 200 40-k good luck after tax in fort mcmoney
good company but tough spot time to get the customer to buk up so they can pay their crew better . last summer the caravan pilot just quit but money vs lifestlye better elsewhere.?
to all pilots this is the time do get what you are worth and not take the
first offer .remember a ops man job is to get you at the lowest price and your job is to fly for the highest bidder of yur services. good luck and good horsetrading /fly safe out there
1600per month rent that right folks rent for a 1 bedroom pad and it is not the penthouse.
food higher cause to get the folks to flip burgers /it costs more .mikisew gave up trying to have permanent crews living in fort mcmoney and rotates them out of edmonton - at least they were a few months back
pay for capt on a 200 40-k good luck after tax in fort mcmoney
good company but tough spot time to get the customer to buk up so they can pay their crew better . last summer the caravan pilot just quit but money vs lifestlye better elsewhere.?
to all pilots this is the time do get what you are worth and not take the
first offer .remember a ops man job is to get you at the lowest price and your job is to fly for the highest bidder of yur services. good luck and good horsetrading /fly safe out there
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DeskDriver
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What oldncold fails to mention is that I'm willing to provide lessons in communication, grammar, and literacy for a reasonable price. PM me for details.
For a free consultation, PM me and send a new keypad for a Dell latitude series notebook. Results are guaranteed.
For a free consultation, PM me and send a new keypad for a Dell latitude series notebook. Results are guaranteed.
You've finally made it in Aviation when you nolonger work in a city which begins with Fort, Port, Prince, or Saint. Or leave aviation and stay in a Fort.
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sky's the limit
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Deskdriver,
I find it a bit interesting that you, the only declared non-pilot in this thread are so ardent in your defense of that job posting.
While you make some good points about hard work, and the fact that a degree and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee these days, you seem to miss the fundamental point - to simply "pay ones dues" in order to progress in your chosen proffession is not good enough in 2006.
You make the distinction between a job and a career. Good point, but why is you seem to feel that little or no money combined with "hard work" should be enough to keep someone happy as long as there is the potential of progressing? I think you, and unfortunately many young/new pilots, need get something straight - we fly for money. Too many seem to believe it is something it is not, a glamorous and status worthy occupation. Aviation, like any other field is a job, and while there are often fun or interesting days, there are many that are not. It is a career like any other, and the starting wages industry wide, particularly in fixed-wing, are appalling.
In places like Ft. McMurray, where the oil patch is tearing up the landscape as fast as possible to extract record profits, why is the aviation industry so affraid to charge a decent rate for its services?? Why are KA 200 Capt's making $40-50k when the average rig worker is pulling in twice that for a job with infinitely less responsibility and knowledge/training? I think for the answer you have to reference my last paragraph - because many people in aviation, including owners and management think this is something it is not, and have a perverted sense of self worth, or lack there of.
I say again, WE FLY FOR MONEY, and if you start your career happy at a desk/ramp/dock job at $11.50/hr or less, where does that leave you when it comes time to ask for real money(wages or charter/ticket rates) later on? What scale do you have with which to compare? The answer is a really shitty one. Make no mistake, most aviation companies turn a good profit, otherwise they wouldn't wast thier time, even in this highly competetive climate. Those of us "working hard" in it deserve better from bottom to top. I am not talking about rampies making $70K/year, I'm talking about people making a wage they can live on, whether that be the first year WestJet/Air Canada people(pathetically low), or the summer dock jocks who slave away for little or nothing at all but the hope of some right seat float time...
There needs to be a serious change in what we define as acceptable wages and working condtions(see the bonding issues), and it should start in Alberta/Northern BC where apparently the money is growing on trees. If you can't get a decent wage there of all places, how's it going to change elsewhere? I guess if you don't think it should change, none of this is relevent.
STL
I find it a bit interesting that you, the only declared non-pilot in this thread are so ardent in your defense of that job posting.
While you make some good points about hard work, and the fact that a degree and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee these days, you seem to miss the fundamental point - to simply "pay ones dues" in order to progress in your chosen proffession is not good enough in 2006.
You make the distinction between a job and a career. Good point, but why is you seem to feel that little or no money combined with "hard work" should be enough to keep someone happy as long as there is the potential of progressing? I think you, and unfortunately many young/new pilots, need get something straight - we fly for money. Too many seem to believe it is something it is not, a glamorous and status worthy occupation. Aviation, like any other field is a job, and while there are often fun or interesting days, there are many that are not. It is a career like any other, and the starting wages industry wide, particularly in fixed-wing, are appalling.
In places like Ft. McMurray, where the oil patch is tearing up the landscape as fast as possible to extract record profits, why is the aviation industry so affraid to charge a decent rate for its services?? Why are KA 200 Capt's making $40-50k when the average rig worker is pulling in twice that for a job with infinitely less responsibility and knowledge/training? I think for the answer you have to reference my last paragraph - because many people in aviation, including owners and management think this is something it is not, and have a perverted sense of self worth, or lack there of.
I say again, WE FLY FOR MONEY, and if you start your career happy at a desk/ramp/dock job at $11.50/hr or less, where does that leave you when it comes time to ask for real money(wages or charter/ticket rates) later on? What scale do you have with which to compare? The answer is a really shitty one. Make no mistake, most aviation companies turn a good profit, otherwise they wouldn't wast thier time, even in this highly competetive climate. Those of us "working hard" in it deserve better from bottom to top. I am not talking about rampies making $70K/year, I'm talking about people making a wage they can live on, whether that be the first year WestJet/Air Canada people(pathetically low), or the summer dock jocks who slave away for little or nothing at all but the hope of some right seat float time...
There needs to be a serious change in what we define as acceptable wages and working condtions(see the bonding issues), and it should start in Alberta/Northern BC where apparently the money is growing on trees. If you can't get a decent wage there of all places, how's it going to change elsewhere? I guess if you don't think it should change, none of this is relevent.
STL
YOu know what guys?
I realize one thing from this....threds like this will come up over and over again...and we will all argue/agree on some topics and if lucky not insuly anyone in the process...
But, one thing I learned in life is that YOU gotta do whats right for yourself.
You wanna go up north work the ramp for $8 or $15? Go for it! You wanna instruct, tow gliders, drop jumpers...go for it. You wanna sign up for the bond, buy PPC, sell your soul , work for free....go for it (I would not agree on all of this) but do it!
Just remember...its your life, and mistakes you do in it, lessons you learn, lucky breaks you get...are all yours to keep:)
Good luck out there!
I realize one thing from this....threds like this will come up over and over again...and we will all argue/agree on some topics and if lucky not insuly anyone in the process...
But, one thing I learned in life is that YOU gotta do whats right for yourself.
You wanna go up north work the ramp for $8 or $15? Go for it! You wanna instruct, tow gliders, drop jumpers...go for it. You wanna sign up for the bond, buy PPC, sell your soul
, work for free....go for it (I would not agree on all of this) but do it!Just remember...its your life, and mistakes you do in it, lessons you learn, lucky breaks you get...are all yours to keep:)
Good luck out there!
In a few years when your "hard on" for flyin subsides. Don't be cryin when you realize you can't make enough to live in this racket. It's the guys who are working for less then a fair wage who cause the problem in the first place.
I don't know how often, I hear guys bitching about how they get paid shit and live in a shithole, only to find out that in the past they use to fly skydivers for free and took a job right seat in a turbine machine for 1200 bucks a month.
Now I don't know anything about Fort McMurray but I do know I have seen jobs on the Job Bank at Burger King that pay $14 an hour to start. So I doubt 11.50 is a fair wage.
I don't know how often, I hear guys bitching about how they get paid shit and live in a shithole, only to find out that in the past they use to fly skydivers for free and took a job right seat in a turbine machine for 1200 bucks a month.
Now I don't know anything about Fort McMurray but I do know I have seen jobs on the Job Bank at Burger King that pay $14 an hour to start. So I doubt 11.50 is a fair wage.
