Incident/punishment - if any ?

Lockwoodian · Post by **Lockwoodian** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:41 am

**Totally unrelated to oldflyers post**.

This happened recently at a small airport that was an MF at the time (RAAS). Idents have been changed, both A/C were 172's, from rival flight schools that are located at an airport ~70 miles from "Sumsmall airport". Assume CAVU - I was not involved in this incident in any way, shape or form, nor do I know any of the players - but I do know that the incident has been reported.

At approximately 1708Z, CFABC reported overhead "Sumsmall airport" joining the downwind for rwy35. About 1 minute later, CGCBA called taxiing for departure and received an advisory including the traffic downwind for rwy35. CGCBA stated that he would do an immediate departure off of rwy17 and was requested to standby for a position report on CFABC . CFABC reported base leg turning final; CGCBA advised departing off rwy17; CFABC reported 1 mile final. CGCBA departed, CFABC executed a 360º turn on final. Each a/c was aware of the traffic, heated words exchanged between pilots.
BTW - both of the flight shools offer "professional" pilot training programs.

Even Ari Gold would question the 'business ethics' here.
Ari Gold on ethics (dropping f-bombs like it's going out of style)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKNV5foR ... ed&search=

IMO - Hotshot should surrender his ticket for a month.

LW

shankdown · Post by **shankdown** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:14 am

Let's see here. A 172 on a 1 mile final approaching at, if I remember correctly, about 60 knots. That is equates to 1 minute until crossing the threshold (or longer, considering that he'll have to slow even further to land the thing). I can see why the pilot on the ground might think he has enough time to depart... and for what its worth, I agree with him. The pilot of the airplane on final is probably the one who filed the report, and I'd suggest to him that if he thinks a one minute separation between the person taking off infront of him and landing, he best consider another career if he is seeking to fly out of major airports at some point in his career. My 2 cents on an incident I never saw.

Shankdizzle

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:35 am

Ah yes. War stories from the circuit.
Whoever reported the other guy is a dipshit.

linecrew · Post by **linecrew** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:53 am

shankdown wrote:The pilot of the airplane on final is probably the one who filed the report, and I'd suggest to him that if he thinks a one minute separation between the person taking off infront of him and landing, he best consider another career if he is seeking to fly out of major airports at some point in his career.
Shankdizzle

Taking off HEAD TO HEAD with an aircraft on 1 mile final is acceptable?

I seriously doubt that any major airport would allow something as stupid as this to take place without any consequence to the pilot or ATC unit.

I had seen the report on this and it wasn't filed by either pilot. I believe it was the FSS that submitted it...probably prompted by a series of expletives on the freq.

Sasquash · Post by **Sasquash** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:24 am

Runway in use at the time is 35. First aircraft overhead calls it in, it's his/hers until landed, unless aircraft one agrees / allows aircraft 2 to depart.

We frequently extend downwind, cancel IFR, etc. to accommodate everyone. Without the above agreement between both aircraft, it becomes a nose-to-nose take off by aircraft no2, ie: 602.01 Reckless and negligent. There's several Tribunal jurisprudene to reflect that scenario.

CarbIce · Post by **CarbIce** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:24 am

Was tuned into the local when passing LSR in Barrie on my way to Midland about 7 years ago... heard a guy take off 09 when there were already 3 or 4 in circuit using 27. Sent planes scrambling from final to avoid him... 5 minutes later he called entering downwind for 09 and sent them scrambling from the circuit again... said something about not wanting to use 27 cause it was into the sun, and -unsafe-

shankdown · Post by **shankdown** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:11 am

Ooops, I guess I misread that one! You're absolutely right, taking off head to head is not a prudent course of action. My mistake!!! I just assumed it was the same runway. Perhaps the report WAS necessary.

Shankdown

rd1331 · Post by **rd1331** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:56 pm

The no2 pilot should definately be written up. What he/she did was completely unsafe and against regulations.

Need say more?

Vector2ILS · Post by **Vector2ILS** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:02 pm

Yeah, write him up. I see to much of this kind of thing at uncontrolled airports. Too many are getting away without even a warning, so why not do what every you want??

Vector2ILS · Post by **Vector2ILS** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:32 pm

Yeah, write him up. I see to much of this kind of thing at uncontrolled airports. Too many are getting away without even a warning, so why not do what every you want??

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:54 pm

Report away perfect pilots, but I had better not see any of you east bound at 4500ft.
I'm sure this is more an issue of mickey mouse flying school, competition BS then it is safety related.
What was accomplished by the Cessna on final doing a 360 turn and effectivly turning his back to the conflict. Last I heard the procedure for a possible head on collision was not "do a 360"

Vector2ILS · Post by **Vector2ILS** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:03 pm

I didn't hear anyone say that they were perfect. Just that people who don't have a clue need some, refresher training maybe???

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:07 pm

In my opinion, both pilots were wrong, and executed poor airmanship.

If you're flying, what's the hurry? Isn't the whole point of flying to be safe, and have fun? You can't be safe or have fun if you're in a hurry.

My $0.02.

-istp

prang one · Post by **prang one** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:30 pm

Very odd

but not uncommon situation at airports with no tower.

BUT I think it would have been better if both instructors were given a group rug dance rather than who can file a report the fastest.

IMHO the aircraft on final could not have been that worried about bouncing of the other aircraft, because nobody in there right mind would pull a 360 and lose sight of the target if they were

Immelman Turn is the only way to go

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:48 pm

Was the name of one pilot Larry, and the other pilot Curly or Moe?

Or, perhaps Harpo and Groucho were at it again?

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:13 am

Or someone practicing for an airshow?

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:57 am

rd1331 wrote:The no2 pilot should definately be written up. What he/she did was completely unsafe and against regulations.

Need say more?

Nope. I've seen it happen here a couple times as well, only differences being it was AAS rather than RAAS, and commercial pilots rather than students. No radar though. So the pilots may have had a bit of a better idea where each other was, and the expected level of professionalism should be higher, but pretty much the same. If you're going to depart from an uncontrolled airport off of a runway other than the active, and there's any risk of a conflict, ask the conflicting pilot if it's OK. If it's not, wait. If you're in the air, and someone wants to depart of the other runway, or needs a backtrack on the active, just be honest about whether you have a problem with it or not. If you're turning crosswind, don't be an ass. If you're on base, don't be a fool, tell him to wait. FSS can only let you know you're doing something silly, they can't keep you from killing yourself and/or the other pilot.