When is ATPL req'd & what is "heavy"??

[Paciflyer]

I don't normally get too active on these forums, I like to read it though and pick up lots of good info. I asked a few fellows that seemed to be "up" on regs to help me understand "large aircraft" as applied to licence requirements. I thought maybe it was a dumb question but it appears not as they suggested we discuss it here.

I felt I was lucky to pass my CPL exam years ago - haven't opened a book since, hydraulic levers, cables and throttles that make noise are MY passion .....I know, me bad

Regardless, here are three answers rec'd - further opinion is welcome. With SE turbines getting bigger all the time, where and when does ATPL requirement kick in?

Thanks & be safe up there

PS: I’ll let the authors of the replies come forward if they so choose, and Thank you to them for taking the time to help clear it up.

Hi Paciflyer,

According to TC, a "large" aircraft is defined as one weighing more than 12,566 lbs (5700kg). This is found in the "interpretations" section of the CARs (ie CAR 101).

As a newly minted CPL, you cannot act as an FO or PIC on a large a/c. In order to act as a crew member on a large a/c, you need to write your IATRA (for FO) or have your ATPL (for PIC).

I'm not sure exactly how an air tractor would fit in, since I don't believe these are operated in a two crew environment (i.e. if you're going to fly an airplane that requires an FO, then you need the IATRA or ATPL).

There are several people on the forum who have done air tractor work. I would recommend making a post in the one of the forums to get a confirmation.

Anyways, sorry I couldn’t help any more. Good luck though

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Hi there!

Very simply, CAR 421.40 (1) (a) answers your question re: the Air Tractor. "All aeroplanes with a minimum flight crew requirement of one pilot excluding high performance;"

On this chart http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... t42102.htm (which took me a while to find, it's hiding at the end of the standards section there!) it shows that the Air Tractor is non-high performance and min. crew is one pilot - hence, Farmer Joe could go get his PPL, buy an Air Tractor, and immediately take it for a spin, as his license covers "all single engine non high performance airplanes."

If you look at the "Individual Type Ratings" section a little below 421.40, you'll see a list of when it is required to have a type rating, and a little below that it goes into when you need to have an ATP or IATRA written to get said type rating (basically only 2 crew or high perf. aircraft).

I think the weight thing really only has to do with the actual aircraft certification - if over 12,5 then two crew is needed - hence the fact that a Shorts Skyvan can be flown at Max Gross (over 12,5 -don't know exactly what) and must have 2 crew, or loaded lighter and flown under 12,5 just single pilot.

Some more examples to clear things up a bit, although 421.40 and below should help - From the regs I can interpret that if 2 private pilots (or CPL) bought a Citation I (2 crew, non high performance)all they would need to do is write the IATRA, do ground and flight training on the aircraft, have 250 h TT, and do a PPC, and they'd be good to go. If one PPL (or CPL) went out and bought a Hurricane (1 crew, high performance) he would only have to do ground and flight training, have 200h TT, and pass a flight test (PPC -like.) This last paragraph is just my interpretation of what I read the rules to be - don't take it for law, but I'm pretty sure I'm correct.

Hope that makes sense.
Cheers!


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Hey Paciflyer, Just trying to rack my brain with your question. Im not sure that im the guy to answer it but I love the challenge. Ill see what I can dig up! I know how frustrating the CARS can be to figure something out.

Perhaps the best thing to do is throw it out on the forums for discussion, I find there are some excellent posters on here that will spend hours seeking the answer for you if they don’t know it!! Give er a try and we'll see with what the Avcanada crew can come up with.

Cheers

[TopperHarley]

To add further to the info...

To fly any high performance a/c you need a type rating.

A "high performance" a/c is defined as an a/c with a Vso of 80 knots or more, AND/OR, an a/c with a Vne of 250 knots or more.

To get a type rating, I believe you also need 250 hrs total time as a minimum.

[TopperHarley]

As for the ATP...

Transport Canada has a list of a/c that they have designated as requiring a minimum of 2 crew (i.e. cannot be operated as single pilot). Examples are B1900D, Dash 8, etc.

In order to act as a PIC on one of these a/c, you need your ATP licence in hand (i.e. it is signed off).

To act as an FO on one of these a/c or a "large" a/c, you need as a minimum the ATP written exams completed or the IATRA exam.

[co-joe]

If you can't fit both arms around her or if she is wider than she is tall...then you are getting some "heavy time". See also "northern princess", etc...

See there's a sliding scale of what's allowed based on how many degrees north of 50 you are, and how long you've been there. It's okay man, we've all go a little "heavy time" in our books somewhere.

[Paciflyer]

If you can't fit both arms around her or if she is wider than she is tall...then you are getting some "heavy time". See also "northern princess", etc...

See there's a sliding scale of what's allowed based on how many degrees north of 50 you are, and how long you've been there. It's okay man, we've all go a little "heavy time" in our books somewhere.

Ahhh!! Definately explains why the real oldtime northern boys always carried flour or pancake mix in the "survival" kit!

FWIW - I seem to remember my original licence document actually had some type of weight restriction right on it in the 12k range......guess CARS has changed since - did I mention "oldtime northern boy(s)"?? LOL!

[TopperHarley]

FWIW - I seem to remember my original licence document actually had some type of weight restriction right on it in the 12k range......guess CARS has changed since - did I mention "oldtime northern boy(s)"?? LOL!

I believe that as the holder of a bare CPL, you can act as a crew member on any non-high performance a/c that does not require 2 crew or exceed 12,566 lbs (i.e. a large a/c, as defined by the CARs in 101).

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#401_30

That link lays out the priveledges you may hold as a CPL.

If you want to operate any other kind of a/c then you need a type rating.

Standard 421.40 deals with type ratings. Note that when you get your CPL, your license will have a "blanket type rating" (ie. it will say something like "All aeroplanes with a minimum flight crew requirement of one pilot excluding high performance." ) This means that with a CPL, you can't act as a crew member on a plane that requires 2 crew.

To operate an a/c that requires 2 crew you will need a type rating. You also need a type rating to operate a high performance a/c.

If you want to fly an air tractor, you'll first need to determine whether the type of a/c you want to fly is a high performance one or not (is Vso>80kts and/or Vne/250kts?... if yes, it's high performance).

If it is a high performance a/c then you will need to get a type rating in order to fly it.

To get a type rating, you will need to meet the requirements in standard 421.40 section 3(c), which deals with high performance a/c. Here is a link: http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... ds/421.htm Scroll down to find 421.40.

So basically you need a type rating when:
1. You want to operate a high performance a/c.
2. You want to operate an a/c that requires 2 crew.

You cannot do these things with a bare CPL. The requirements to get your type rating in situation 1 and 2 are different.

To operate a high performance a/c, you will need 200 hrs total time, complete ground school on the a/c, and do a flight test. Then you will be issued a new license by TC which will have the new type on it.

To get a type rating for a 2 crew a/c you will need 250 hours total time, complete ground school on the a/c, AND have an IATRA for an FO, or, ATP for PIC. You don't need an IATRA to get a type rating for a high performance a/c though.

I hope this clarifies it a little better.

[Paciflyer]

think I'm with the program now - thanks so much. My reference to the weight category on an old licence was merely a passing interest, obviously nothing of the sort on modern documents.

Be interesting if anyone else remembers this particular limit on any licences issued in early seventies or older??

Perhaps I'm just having an "old timer " moment - please allow the latitude

[ei ei owe]

... I like to read it though and pick up lots of good info.....

I'd guess you don't get much for your efforts!

[chipmunk]

I believe that as the holder of a bare CPL, you can act as a crew member on any non-high performance a/c that does not require 2 crew or exceed 12,566 lbs (i.e. a large a/c, as defined by the CARs in 101).


Standard 421.40 deals with type ratings. Note that when you get your CPL, your license will have a "blanket type rating" (ie. it will say something like "All aeroplanes with a minimum flight crew requirement of one pilot excluding high performance." ) This means that with a CPL, you can't act as a crew member on a plane that requires 2 crew.

C-HRIS is basically right except that your bare PPL gives you the blanket type rating of "all single engine non high performance airplanes."
And to clarify things a little further, if you follow the link in Paciflyer's original post (in the 2nd pm reply posted) it will goes to a chart that tells you if an aircraft is high performance and how many crew are required.

And just to clarify - as a holder of a CPL (or PPL) you may act as a crew member of a 2 crew aircraft if you have your IATRA written, ground & flight training done on the aircraft, 250h TT, and do a PPC ride. So if I went out with my ATPL and bought a fancy 2 crew airplane, I could get my buddy Joe PPL to write his IATRA, do some training, and bingo - there's my 2nd crew member.

Cheers!

[Aeros]

As for the ATP...

Transport Canada has a list of a/c that they have designated as requiring a minimum of 2 crew (i.e. cannot be operated as single pilot). Examples are B1900D, Dash 8, etc.

In order to act as a PIC on one of these a/c, you need your ATP licence in hand (i.e. it is signed off).

To act as an FO on one of these a/c or a "large" a/c, you need as a minimum the ATP written exams completed or the IATRA exam.

C-HRIS is talking about the Commercial Air Service World. In that case you need the ATPL to act as PIC of a two-crew aeroplane.

If you aren't flying as part of a Commercial Air Service you can act as PIC of a two-crew aeroplane with a PPL (assuming that you also had the type rating on the Licence -- of course that would require the 250 hours, IATRA or ATPL exams, ground and flight training and a flight test).

401.26 The holder of a private pilot licence - aeroplane may act as

(a) pilot-in-command or co-pilot of an aeroplane of a class and type in respect of which the licence is endorsed with ratings;

To expand on Chipmunk's answer the person buying the sexy machine could also hold only a PPL. If both buddies (both holding only PPLs) could then get the 250 hours, the training, write the exam and do their rides, either one could be the skipper (assuming of course that they kept it our of the Commercial Air Service stuff).

[dangerous]

So a couple rich kids with PPL's and 250 hrs can go buy a 747 and fly 'er around? That's good to know.