So I get a call from trasport yesterday....

[C-FART]

Ok so I don't know where do start or go with this one...a rant, a plea for advice or openning up for some nice beration you can be the judge

I thought I finished off my commercial licence a few weeks ago with the successful completion of my cpl written test and all the necessary flight time requirements covered. I went in to the flying school and the ass't CFI and I go throught the game of putting my application together to send away to TC...I am thinking great all good and finished.. Horray for me....
Well yesterday I get a call from TC saying I didn't have a valid CAT 1 medical at the time of my flight test. Even though I have the medial now I didn't at the time of my ride. Basically I was told I had to redo the ride before they will issue me my commercial licence.
First and foremost Yes I do understand that it is my responsibility and I should have known but hey I was/am again only a student...what happened to the idea that instructors teach, give guidance and monitor progress and students learn? Even TC said it was a massive failing from my instructor (who isn't there anymore), the flight school, The ASST CFI and even the Flight test examiner for not catching this...I shouldn't have been able to even do the flight test.
So am I crazy in thinking someone should be getting their a$$ handed to them other than only me over this and what kind of recourse should I seek? From the flight school? the flight test examiner? I think I am at least entitled to my couple of hundred bucks back if for no other reason that failure to deliver a service. I mean really the test was null and void even before we went up...and he did check my medical before we even started
It is really disturbing that all were happy to take my $ and say oh it should be ok...just to have me take it in the chute in the end

End of rant...have at it!!!

[I'd Rather Be Flying]

Sorry to hear of your troubles. That would suck. Was your application looked at by an authorized person? Was your PPL signed off? If so, the AP should be in trouble. Hard to believe that whoever recommended you for the CPL ride, the examiner, and the AP all missed the fact your medical wasn't current. And it pays to be a bit more observant yourself.

At any rate, now you have to do the ride again. I doubt you'll have any luck getting money back or having the school pay, but you could try.

Good luck.

Out of curiosity, what region of Canada are you in?

[3Green]

There is no excuse for you not being up to date with your documents. You should be well versed on flight test requirements prior to the date. Your instructor likely had a large number of students, which would make it exceedingly difficult to keep each one's medical validity in their mind. You had it in your pocket...PIC's responsibility. Most often an instructor will ask to see your documents several times before a ride...however somtimes things get overlooked during the busy summer season. (If your instructor had caught it, you should have considered it a favour.)

I agree with you that the flight test examiner should have caught it. Again, it's not his ultimate responsibility. He expects candidates to come to the test date prepared. For the Commercial Flight Test all your ducks should be in a row on your own accord. Documents, flight planning, weather, and exercises. The ride should be a formality. You're being tested on what you HAVEN'T learned. If you show up with expired documents, you haven't learned the responsibility of having them. You haven't learned to be accountable for your own mistakes.
I'm afraid you're gonna have to chalk this up to a "lesson learned".

[fatty]

HA HA HA HA HA........HA


I too let my CAT 1 medical lapse.. and now I live in a 26 year old cub van down by the river. For breakfast this morning I have left over chicken bones that the nice seagull threw to me because he felt sorry for my dumb assed mistake of not keeping my medical current....HA

One question to you...Do you blame your mommy when you forget to set your alarm clock?

the fat kid in the van down by the river.

[Floats]

i'd ask for your money back from the inspector.
You said he checked your medical, obviously he went through the motions of checking without actually checking it.

floats

[Pugster]

Well, this one's gonna have to rest on your shoulders.

If you wanna feel better, I had a buddy do an ENTIRE instructor rating without ever processing his CPL completely. His 90 days on the sign off lapsed...and voila...instructor training invalid. Never did get it finished.

He appealed it bigtime and they didn't budge. To make you feel better, he was out over $4000 of training.

Pugster

[greenwich]

Sorry dude, but I agree with 3green!

These kind of things are your responsibility, and will be for the rest of your career!!

G

[LT]

Lets, see the Flight School will mention, "oh you have to do a check out with an instructor cause your not current"

but they always miss every other thing that doesn't make them money...

You're supposed to have a current medical when you fly, so technically you failed your flight exam during the briefing. and the DFTE, let me guess works at the school too, just took you for a spin in the school plane..

Here's the kicker, wait till they tell you to give them another $30 for the processing...

It sucks, they all screwed up, and as such, you should snitch them out and make sure they suffer a great deal for your misfortune..

But after you take your lumps and pay for another flight test...

But it doesn't make sense though, stupid tc. =( Even a person who passes partially doesn't do it all over again.

But the guy who got perfect but didn't have the right medical at the time does it again..

Transport.. Wonderful people...

[Always Moving]

I was a flight instructor at one time, hell still am (FAA), but the thing here is responsabilities.
You should cought it and is part your fault.
Now, the Instructor...... I would like NAMES, so we starting to know who is who in this lions's liar. I think you should get at least a free rental for the ride since they mess up (that is one of the reasons you pay at a flight school so they do their job, the summer season bullshit is not an excuse)
The examiner, he should cought it too, he should give you his free time=free ride.
Your lost time and efort..... that will not be reinburse SO YOU PAY MORE ATTENTION in the rest of your LIVE.
my 2c

[3Green]

Maybe the "summer season bullshit" isn't an excuse, but it's not the goddamn instructor's fault this genius waltzed into his flight test without a medical! Hrmmm...possibly a little "projection"??
Sure, maybe the right thing to do would be for the examiner to give the student a break on the second flight test. Will that happen? HAhahahaha...not bloody likely.
Why should a candidate for a CPL be allowed to hold the license if he can't even keep track of his medical date?
AROWJI"C"??

[LT]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/gener ... eneral.htm

And when you wrote your Written you should have been told you didn't have the right medical either(as you mentioned)..

But, for now..

In order to be admitted to a flight test required for the issuance of a Commercial Pilot Licence — Aeroplane, the candidate shall present:

1 proof of meeting the medical standards for the Commercial Pilot Licence,


2 a letter from a qualified flight instructor certifying that:
the candidate is considered to have reached a sufficient level of competency for the issuance of the Commercial Pilot Licence,

Obviously the recommend was useless after all....

Obviously the DFTE, Instructor,and the CFI should have refused to admityou to the flight test

Imagine going to the bar, porno store, theme park and they were negligent like that and admitted a minor or a small person inside/on the ride??

TC, the only industry that blames the victim..
"you were raped? Well it's cause you dress like a slut, and you owe us $100 for giving sex"

[3Green]

This is not a thread that should turn to TC bashing (as just about every friggin thread does). This is cut and dried lack of preparation on the candidates part. There is not a soul to blame other than the person that went to the test without the requirements having been met.

As an aside, this board has done nothing but create dissention towards TC. I'm neither for, nor against TC. I AM, however, sick of hearing everyone cry about it!! It appears that every problem within our community is projected back towards Transport. Man does it ever get tiresome reading the same thing over and over.

[tripod]

When I was still an instructor, we use to advise students to obtain their medical before spending any money on training just in case they had problems meeting the medical standards. That would suck if you could not pass your medical now that you already passed your ride.$$$$$

[cedarjet]

"you were raped? Well it's cause you dress like a slut, and you owe us $100 for giving sex"

who told you about my story!!!! they swore its gonna be locked in the volt! get ur facts straight, it was only $75.

For the original post, 2 words: Rec. Permit.

[Wasn't Me]

Everyone should be at fault, from the flying school to the DFTE as well as the student. Good money is paid to prepare for the ride this also includes the paper work. Your medical should have been checked br the recommending instructor, the DFTE and yourself. The fees you paid should be applied to the next flight test. As for starting an instructor rating without a commercial in your hand well that crazy you never know when you'll get a call like this one.

[Always Moving]

AMEN

[Doctor MCDU]

Sorry to break it to you. But, in this case (and recently I've learned to detest agreeing with TC) they are correct. The responsibility for ensuring the validation of any required documents rests with the PIC. That would have been you!

But, it could be worse. Had you let it expire completely; they’d nail you on flying WITHOUT a valid license/medical.

Good luck on your next ride.

[Right Seat Captain]

I'm not sure of the circumstances surrounding not having a valid medical, but it sounds like C-FART had a Class 1 medical, and it expired and reverted to the Class 3, still being able to fly under PPL priviledges.

If this is the case, it sounds pretty straight forward to me. It may have been valid at the time of the written, maybe not, but that doesn't really matter. It may have been valid at the time the instructor signed the recommendation letter, maybe not, but the recomendation letter doesn't say anything about valid medical. Specifically it says:

I consider the candidate to have reached a sufficient level of competency for the issuance of the Commercial Pilot Licence, and I recommend the candidate for the flight test. Where the candidate is enrolled in an integrated CPL course, he/she has successfully completed the VFR Navigation Progress Test.

Theres not even a box to fill out regarding a medical. So it is not the recomending instructor's duty to even check the validity of the medical.

The examiner is supposed to check the medical as one of the first things to check.

The examiner shall stop the test if a complete re-test becomes necessary. The examiner shall also stop the flight test, and the flight test shall be assessed as "fail" when gross incompetence or dangerous flying is displayed.

So the examiner should have stopped the flight test then and there. However many examiners will charge the full fee even if it was failed on the ground, unless they are extraordinarily nice people, which there are a few. You still used up their time, and they had to set aside a large block of time for you. However, since the test did not stop, you had to pay for the aircraft rental.

This should not have happened, however examiners operate independantly from the flight school, even if they happen to be on staff. So the flight school should not reimburse any flight. The examiner should reimburse the flight portion of the exam for his own incompetance.

Now whoever signed off the CPL, the 'Authorized Person' should have caught this, and should not have sent in the application for a licence. Why the Assistant CFI was filling out the form, I don't know, unless he happens to be the school's Authorized person, however this is rare. Nonetheless, the Authorized Person had to sign the form, and it now shows they were not doing their job. However at this point, it's only the application. The money had been spent, and it was not the Authorized Person's fault that you spent it.

In the end, I'd either say you have to redo your flight test, and the examiner should pay for your flight time, but you still take a hit with another DFTE fee since you did fail the flight test. OR TC takes a close look at your file, gives you a partial the documents portion of the flight test, and you pay the fee to redo that item of the flight test. Either way C-FART did outright fail the flight test, it just wasn't picked up until it was too late.[/b]

[Northern Flyer]

If I let my CAT 1 lapse, it reverts to a CAT 3, and my commercial privledges are revoked. I am however still qualified to be a private pilot.

Now, when I redo my CAT 1, I don't have to take my commercial flight test over again, the commercial privledges are automatic.

So why does this fella have to redo the ride? You would think that for the time being he would be private only, and when a CAT 1 is attained he would be Commercial rated.

Or I could be totaly pucked up.

[...]

Heading: "So I get a call from trasport yesterday...."

Who's Trasport?

Lesson learned. I bet the DOT guy caught it but didn't want to be out the coin of showing up and your paper work expired.
Everyone needs to get paid. Not his fault.
I get paid to be a moderator here......What?! You all thought all this talent was for free?

[rotorfloat]

OK, excuse my ignorance, but a SPP is valid for 5 yrs. Did you at one time have a Valid Class I? A regular occurance at my school, students do their commercial ride with a Class I that is over 13 mos old, but still valid under SPP. You bet your boots that when the licence application is mailed away they have their current medical.

Mind you, the above is with students who usually hold no other licences/permits/ratings. I know in the f/w world one goes private, then commercial, but usually in r/w it's straight to commercial. Are f/w commercial cantidates issued SPPs? Or do they do their solo training under the authority of their PPL? If that's the case, where no SPP is issued, the medical should have been recent (12 mos.) at the time of your ride.

But, since the examiner failed to notice this, and you obviously demonstrated the req'd knowledge for the issuance of a CPL, go get a valid medical and re-submit the application.

Sorry for the run-on sentences. Fire at will!

[neverever]

ahhh...the days of flying when the only paper that mattered was the shite paper.

[Right Seat Captain]

Now, when I redo my CAT 1, I don't have to take my commercial flight test over again, the commercial privledges are automatic.

So why does this fella have to redo the ride? You would think that for the time being he would be private only, and when a CAT 1 is attained he would be Commercial rated.

You would think, but you had a valid medical for the Commercial Licence when you did your flight test, so you don't have to redo it. This fellow, it seems, did not have a valid medical to be a commercial pilot, when conducting his test to become one. The DFTE, PE as of tomorrow, is the last check before his licence is signed off by an authorized person. If the examiner is not sure if they are medically fit to obtain the licence, they cannot continue with the test to determine if they have the skills to be one.

OK, excuse my ignorance, but a SPP is valid for 5 yrs. Did you at one time have a Valid Class I? A regular occurance at my school, students do their commercial ride with a Class I that is over 13 mos old, but still valid under SPP. You bet your boots that when the licence application is mailed away they have their current medical.

First, an SPP is only valid as long as a medical is valid. It would only apply to a CAT 3 or 4 medical, since to obtain a Private or a Rec. Permit that is all you need. Once a Private Licence is obtained, the SPP is supersceded, and is no longer valid. And since this fellow was going for his commercial, he would no longer have a valid SPP, since he has to have a PPL.

[CAL]

C-fart..that is a shitty story..but you know what...book another ride and I am quite sure it will be no problem for ya.....dont even worry...just get it done. I know its more$ but at this stage in the game...another 200 bones or whatever you paid is not even a blip on the screen.

[LT]

...another 200 bones or whatever you paid is not even a blip on the screen.

We're not talking about the money....

We're talking about the principles/logic behind the issue.

This is not a thread that should turn to TC bashing (as just about every friggin thread does).

Not so,

These guys(TC) are total buffoons

How everyone failed at their jobs and how something trivial like this gets someone butt farked.

I'm sure if you're not 18 and do a flight test and get signed off at 18, I'm sure TC wouldn't recognize the flight test either...

Which is stupid.. CARs says, you just need to be 18 to hold a CPL and you need a Class 1 to hold a CPL.

How does it matter if you have either at the flight test or not, just as long as you have them at sign off and when you use the privledge..