Ok Big Iron drivers, I got some questions from ATC
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- invertedattitude
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Ok Big Iron drivers, I got some questions from ATC
1.) I recently learned from an informative and helpful E190 pilot that at least in the Jeppesen FMS databases you have to specify in some cases weather a fix is an NDB or a VOR, is that the case for other databases as well? This was/is helpful information since we sometimes get Americans unfamiliar with the airspace, ask for direct a fix, they don't have it, but tell them it's an NDB and voila they got it.
2.)Just while I'm asking a question, do you airline types have a SOP when ATC passes traffic to you? IE Opposite direction 1000' below you, or do most just say, yea he's on TCAS great, or are you required to also visually identify the aircraft?
Just mostly curiosity here, since 75% of pilots will just say "Thanks we got him on TCAS"
Well I know and hope you do, but we're required to pass traffic in certain situations (minimum vertical sep, and radar targets will touch), it seems a lot of pilots take it as a "yea yea whatever" sort of nuisance. I could be wrong of course...
I didn't put this in the ATS forum, since the majority of pilots don't commonly browse that forum.
Thanks in advance.
2.)Just while I'm asking a question, do you airline types have a SOP when ATC passes traffic to you? IE Opposite direction 1000' below you, or do most just say, yea he's on TCAS great, or are you required to also visually identify the aircraft?
Just mostly curiosity here, since 75% of pilots will just say "Thanks we got him on TCAS"
Well I know and hope you do, but we're required to pass traffic in certain situations (minimum vertical sep, and radar targets will touch), it seems a lot of pilots take it as a "yea yea whatever" sort of nuisance. I could be wrong of course...
I didn't put this in the ATS forum, since the majority of pilots don't commonly browse that forum.
Thanks in advance.
In regards to the TCAS thing, I guess I may sound a bit condescending with the "yeah, we have the traffic on TCAS" because I've been watching him on the fish finder for a minute or two before you come on the radio. It's fun to visually ID them, but not required for us. IMC, it would be pretty difficult
. Whenever you pass traffic the eyes go outside (as they should be) just for grandma's sake, even if the TCAS is showing good separation. I suppose the tone comes from the subconscious thought of "yeah I already know, thanks". Maybe some pilots don't know that you are required to pass that traffic and think it's a nuisance or non-essential radio chatter. ??

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That's what I have assumed. We also from our point of view in busy airspace don't imagine pilots glaring at their fish finder in busy airspace for every airplane or do you?
Considering that we can legally consider an airplane level at 35,000 reading a mode C of FL348, and another airplane level at 34,000 at FL342, consider then the possibility of there only being 600 feet of separation, factor in tail heights, close to 1000 knots closure etc etc.
The interesting thing is, on a normal sunny day, sun not in their face, most pilots even when prompted only visually aquire the other aircraft at around 5-6 miles, which at 1000 knots of closure... well doesn't allow much time, without the cue from ATC, a la the Gol midair last year. Even though TCAS was not functioning due to a 'malfunctioned' transponder, a simple passing of traffic by ATC likely would have avoided the collision.
Thus while many may see the traffic on TCAS, I still think from a safety standpoint, even though a million times there's no conflict, one time there just might be. As we all know TCAS is far from a perfect system.
Thanks for the reply.
Considering that we can legally consider an airplane level at 35,000 reading a mode C of FL348, and another airplane level at 34,000 at FL342, consider then the possibility of there only being 600 feet of separation, factor in tail heights, close to 1000 knots closure etc etc.
The interesting thing is, on a normal sunny day, sun not in their face, most pilots even when prompted only visually aquire the other aircraft at around 5-6 miles, which at 1000 knots of closure... well doesn't allow much time, without the cue from ATC, a la the Gol midair last year. Even though TCAS was not functioning due to a 'malfunctioned' transponder, a simple passing of traffic by ATC likely would have avoided the collision.
Thus while many may see the traffic on TCAS, I still think from a safety standpoint, even though a million times there's no conflict, one time there just might be. As we all know TCAS is far from a perfect system.
Thanks for the reply.
for me, I say either, "we have him on TCAS," or, "In sight". If I say the former, it means I can't seem him outside, and I'm looking, even though I have him on the TCAS. Nothing condescending about it. I try to visually spot every traffic I'm told about, or is close on the TCAS.
I don't know of any SOP regarding you guys telling us about traffic, so I'd say it's an airmanship thing. We'd be stupid to ignore it, that's for sure.
I don't know of any SOP regarding you guys telling us about traffic, so I'd say it's an airmanship thing. We'd be stupid to ignore it, that's for sure.
Drinking outside the box.
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Now, I've always assumed aquiring traffic at night to be easier, not sure if it actually is or not for you, only because airplanes tend to aquire other aircraft faster at night, at least when in areas where there is little ground clutter from cities.
Although I still find it interesting at night to pass a pilot "747 1000' above you"
When really all you see is a beacon light
Although I still find it interesting at night to pass a pilot "747 1000' above you"
When really all you see is a beacon light
Some databases require "NB" to be placed as a suffix to the 3 letter ident. Some do not and instead require a selection between NDB/VOR with the same ident. Some databases may not include the NDB's due to memory limits especially where worldwide databases are installed in which case the pilots would have to manually define the fix.
It may save a little confusion to just clear them to the "---NDB".
Traffic advisories are still appreciated. There are interesting illusions at night which can cause aircraft to look higher or lower than they actually are relative to you. There was a mid-air many years ago now caused by that illusion but can't remember which airlines were involved.
It may save a little confusion to just clear them to the "---NDB".
Traffic advisories are still appreciated. There are interesting illusions at night which can cause aircraft to look higher or lower than they actually are relative to you. There was a mid-air many years ago now caused by that illusion but can't remember which airlines were involved.
Please continue passing traffic. In clear air peoples eyes should be mostly outside rather than on the TCAS, and although TCAS is good stuff there is nothing like having a pair of eyeballs on the other guy. Even if I've seen him on TCAS and have had the guy in sight for miles I will always tell the controller whether I have him in sight or not, and never mention the TCAS.
Some databases identify NDB's by adding a "NB" at the end of the identifier. For instance, if you cleared someone to "XYZ", he would put that in his scratch pad and it would likely come up negative if it were an NDB. Once you tell him it's an NDB he would enter it as "XYZNB" and voila. I would recommend saying that it is an NDB when you clear aircraft to it because let's say you clear him to "YUL", but you mean "YUL" NDB and not the VOR. He will enter it as "YUL", and if there is a VOR by that identifier then that's where he will be going to, not the NDB. If you tell him it's the NDB then he'll enter it as "YULNB" and go to the right place. Most databases though do not have this problem.
It might happen more with Americans because they are much more of a VOR oriented airspace than Canada and don't use NDB's very much. You probably already know this, but Air Canada's EMJ fleet is not even equipped with ADF's.
Some databases identify NDB's by adding a "NB" at the end of the identifier. For instance, if you cleared someone to "XYZ", he would put that in his scratch pad and it would likely come up negative if it were an NDB. Once you tell him it's an NDB he would enter it as "XYZNB" and voila. I would recommend saying that it is an NDB when you clear aircraft to it because let's say you clear him to "YUL", but you mean "YUL" NDB and not the VOR. He will enter it as "YUL", and if there is a VOR by that identifier then that's where he will be going to, not the NDB. If you tell him it's the NDB then he'll enter it as "YULNB" and go to the right place. Most databases though do not have this problem.
It might happen more with Americans because they are much more of a VOR oriented airspace than Canada and don't use NDB's very much. You probably already know this, but Air Canada's EMJ fleet is not even equipped with ADF's.
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Reason I ask, and I've been told by pilots it's one of the only places in Canada. All northwest YHZ arrivals have to proceed over YZX, which causes the NDB/VOR confusion in the first place obviously.
I'll be sure to pass this all on. It's never been a major issue, just the odd american pilot who doesn't have the fix, put on a vector etc, which is more of a nuisance when I'm busy than a problem really.
Appreciate all the information, what was happening was "MercuryXXXX cleared direct yankee zulu xray, direct cetty"
So had always assumed being that specific would solve the issue, clears it up now though, appreciate it.
I'll be sure to pass this all on. It's never been a major issue, just the odd american pilot who doesn't have the fix, put on a vector etc, which is more of a nuisance when I'm busy than a problem really.
Appreciate all the information, what was happening was "MercuryXXXX cleared direct yankee zulu xray, direct cetty"
So had always assumed being that specific would solve the issue, clears it up now though, appreciate it.
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There are a few of thoes I came across in the US. One is Satellite NDB close to Cape Canaveral and Dixon NDB close to Willmington NC.invertedattitude wrote:Reason I ask, and I've been told by pilots it's one of the only places in Canada. All northwest YHZ arrivals have to proceed over YZX, which causes the NDB/VOR confusion in the first place obviously.
You only mss it once, the next time you remember.
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[quote="flyinphil"]
It may save a little confusion to just clear them to the "---NDB".
[quote]
I thought it was worth re stating. A three letter ident always makes me think VOR and not NDB.
As stated by Phil some FMS's prompt you with a choice. Some just respond with illegal entry. If you are not thinking NDB in the first place you come to the conclusion you don't have it coded in the box.
It may save a little confusion to just clear them to the "---NDB".
[quote]
I thought it was worth re stating. A three letter ident always makes me think VOR and not NDB.
As stated by Phil some FMS's prompt you with a choice. Some just respond with illegal entry. If you are not thinking NDB in the first place you come to the conclusion you don't have it coded in the box.
Re: Ok Big Iron drivers, I got some questions from ATC
Can't speak for others but I know myself if traffic whips by me at 1000' ABO or BLO and ATC hadn't mentioned it to us I always wonder why it wasn't brought to our attention by ATC. To reiterate what you've already stated, 1000' and 1000kts combined is not a lot of room. And so far in my career I can't recall once where I've worked with anybody that perceived those ATC heeds as nuisance's. Again, I speak for myself but I believe those warnings or 'heads-up' calls from ATC is simply a method for both the pilots and the controller to both do their due diligence.invertedattitude wrote: Just mostly curiosity here, since 75% of pilots will just say "Thanks we got him on TCAS"
Well I know and hope you do, but we're required to pass traffic in certain situations (minimum vertical sep, and radar targets will touch), it seems a lot of pilots take it as a "yea yea whatever" sort of nuisance. I could be wrong of course...
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Same for us...we will say that "we have him on TCAS", which simply implies that we are aware, but have not acquired visual contact. Eyes always go outside for us when we are advised of traffic, expecially out here in the YVR-YYJ corridor.
And no, it is not implied at all to be condescending, just brief and to the point. We always appreciate the traffic advisories, no doubt. As you say, TCAS is far from perfect.
cheers
wp
And no, it is not implied at all to be condescending, just brief and to the point. We always appreciate the traffic advisories, no doubt. As you say, TCAS is far from perfect.
cheers
wp

Just a quick question...is it only in North America that TCAS traffic is pointed out? Just about everywhere else in the world, when there are multiple targets, or more than 5 targets (EU airspace for eg) or on the enroute portions of the rest of the world (excluding NA) ATC simply doesn't pass the traffic on...Interestingly, Chinese Airspace is now RVSM and in metres! Should be a bit of a gong show at first, as the new separation minima and language issues may have an impact on how you keep an eye on traffic...like keeping the noggin on a swivel. It's definately harder to keep the bigger picture when more than half the ATC is in Mandarin...spoken at blazing speed... I know this "Gwai Lo" can't keep up! 

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The call "traffic at your 1-oclock position a Boeing 737 passing 1000ft below you" from ATC has been a great help, my usual response is "we have it on TCAS - were looking" and this conversation has been recorded by the CVR (just incase the "traffic" has a brain fart and decides to climb setting the stage for a near miss or worse,very common overseas) were now paying more attention to the (by now yellow) blip on my screen. The problem with some US controllers is they don't feel the need or couldn't be bothered to point out other traffic in your vicinity, many times I have picked up other traffic either on the screen or visually and questioned the controller's, to the tune of "he is landing 28 and holding short of your runway" GREAT! but don't you think you could have said something?.
So I for one appreciate the "heads up" from ATC.
As for the FMS database, as mentioned above, when we program a waypoint, we have to identify it as an NDB (ABCNB the NB signifies NDB) if that is the case or it goes all crazy and will pick a VOR somewhere 300 miles away or just says "Not In Database".
So I for one appreciate the "heads up" from ATC.
As for the FMS database, as mentioned above, when we program a waypoint, we have to identify it as an NDB (ABCNB the NB signifies NDB) if that is the case or it goes all crazy and will pick a VOR somewhere 300 miles away or just says "Not In Database".

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Re: Ok Big Iron drivers, I got some questions from ATC
invertedattitude wrote:1.) I recently learned from an informative and helpful E190 pilot that at least in the Jeppesen FMS databases you have to specify in some cases weather a fix is an NDB or a VOR, is that the case for other databases as well? This was/is helpful information since we sometimes get Americans unfamiliar with the airspace, ask for direct a fix, they don't have it, but tell them it's an NDB and voila they got it.
One tidbit I can add is that on the 737-3/4/500 FMS once you enter "ABC" one of 2 things will happen: If there is only one navaid with that ident the FMS will accept it and flight plan to it, OR, if there are 2 (or more) it will list the ident, frequency and lat/long of the navaid and ask you to choose. Happens most often in Italy. (AFAIK we use Jeppesen data as well, but it could be an issue of how the FMS interprets the data in the Jeppesen database)
Re: Ok Big Iron drivers, I got some questions from ATC
Yes many FMS require you to place NB (or some other suffix) after an NDB. If you just spell something out without the NB it will say it does not have the waypoint. Best to tell them it's an NDB.
I always like to hear about traffic. Sometimes it does't make a difference but when you're IMC and the TCAS is starting to show a solid diamond or gives you a traffic alert it's nice to be expecting it. If I know a guy is coming head on stopped 1000 below I feel a lot better as I watch that little diamond get closer in distance and altitude!
I always like to hear about traffic. Sometimes it does't make a difference but when you're IMC and the TCAS is starting to show a solid diamond or gives you a traffic alert it's nice to be expecting it. If I know a guy is coming head on stopped 1000 below I feel a lot better as I watch that little diamond get closer in distance and altitude!
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Re: Ok Big Iron drivers, I got some questions from ATC
Again thanks for all the answers,
Four1Oh, if you happen to check this thread again, how many times have you had a valid TCAS RA? As in there really was a confliction, I'd be interested to know!
I've only seen one TCAS RA from my end and it was a erroneous TCAS RA... so, for me TCAS has been 0/1 for being accurate. Hopefully I never experience a real TCAS RA of course!
Four1Oh, if you happen to check this thread again, how many times have you had a valid TCAS RA? As in there really was a confliction, I'd be interested to know!
I've only seen one TCAS RA from my end and it was a erroneous TCAS RA... so, for me TCAS has been 0/1 for being accurate. Hopefully I never experience a real TCAS RA of course!
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Re: Ok Big Iron drivers, I got some questions from ATC
I've had TCAS give an advisory for the A/C that I was flying...No Joke...
ROGERDILDOINANDOUT
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Re: Ok Big Iron drivers, I got some questions from ATC
How did that RA work?Handsome B. Wonderful wrote:I've had TCAS give an advisory for the A/C that I was flying...No Joke...

Re: Ok Big Iron drivers, I got some questions from ATC
I've heard WJ tell tower on final 34 to yyc they just got an RA due to 401 traffic on a tight downwind. The 37 boys sounded a little concerned, but continued (it was VFR). They got the old 'call this number after shutdown' from the tower..
I've also been on short final at night with the TCAS going off - but thats from the flying school students turning on the master to do the walkaround with the transponder switch on. Scary still.
I've also been on short final at night with the TCAS going off - but thats from the flying school students turning on the master to do the walkaround with the transponder switch on. Scary still.
Sell crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here
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Re: Ok Big Iron drivers, I got some questions from ATC
I thought I read somewhere that TCAS switches to TA only below a certain altitude? Or is that only on the ground.
Re: Ok Big Iron drivers, I got some questions from ATC
It varies from aircraft to aircraft, but generally RA's are inhibited below approximately 1000 feet. Also if the other aircraft is not reporting mode C (altitude) then RA's will not be generated at any altitude.invertedattitude wrote:I thought I read somewhere that TCAS switches to TA only below a certain altitude? Or is that only on the ground.