Why Do I Go On and On and ON about Surface Contamination??
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
Re: Why Do I Go On and On and ON about Surface Contamination??
I gotta a question for the guys that did or still operate some of the larger aircraft in very cold temperatures. I came across a situation where the airplane sat outside for the night (no hangars around) it was -30 below the whole night. The crew comes out to the airplane in the morning notices we have frost on the wings and the temperature is hovering around -33. This is a situation which I now know of if you only have Type 1 deice fluid available it can actually cause more harm then good. With the deice fluid still being heated and sprayed under pressure the outside air temperature and wing temperature are so cold it congeals and even if you were able to increase the rotation for a better shearing effect like type 4 I dont think it would really matter. In some cases your adding more contaminating factors then removing. So I ask in this situation, one day its colder then -40, so its already gone past the temperature cutoff for Type 1 use, and theres a fair amount of frost on the wing, no hanger, its not gona warm up, and you have over a 80 ft wing span to clean and a T tail thats over 25 ft from the ground. Whats the best choice of action?
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Why Do I Go On and On and ON about Surface Contamination??
Get in contact with Rocky.Whats the best choice of action?
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Why Do I Go On and On and ON about Surface Contamination??
I'd be delighted to answer this, thank you Cat. It depends on the kind of type I fluid you're using, but a concentration of 65% fluid to water gives a LOUT of at least -42C with a holdover time of 45 minutes with active frost. If you can't get that concentration then the only thing I can suggest is trying to sweep it off. If there's no way to get it off besides that then I guess you wait for it to disappear on its own when it warms up. Of course you could always take a chance and go anyway, but I wouldn't recommend it.
How's that .?
How's that .?
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DowneastGuy
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- Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:33 am
Re: Why Do I Go On and On and ON about Surface Contamination??
[/quote]"Doc"]
You don't need to know anything about hold over tables, types of anti ice systems, deice fluid types, outside air temps. None of that matters. [/quote]
I am preparing the aircraft for departure and have contamination on my critical surfaces. I make the correct decision to have it removed and have type I and type IV applied.
By your statement above, you feel I don't need any knowledge or understanding of the fluids used, their proper application and the holdover tables. How you can hold this view and at the same time advocate professionalism is rather hard to fathom!
You don't need to know anything about hold over tables, types of anti ice systems, deice fluid types, outside air temps. None of that matters. [/quote]
I am preparing the aircraft for departure and have contamination on my critical surfaces. I make the correct decision to have it removed and have type I and type IV applied.
By your statement above, you feel I don't need any knowledge or understanding of the fluids used, their proper application and the holdover tables. How you can hold this view and at the same time advocate professionalism is rather hard to fathom!
Re: Why Do I Go On and On and ON about Surface Contamination??
Rockie....MEN WITH BROOMS.....Hey, that'd be a good title for a movie!
Re: Why Do I Go On and On and ON about Surface Contamination??
downeast....the jist of what I said, was check your aircraft. You don't need much knowledge to do that. If it's clean, you can go. If it has contamination, the knowledge comes into play. But I didn't say that....I AM SO SORRY.....WHAT DO YOU PEOPLE WANT?? SOMEBODY TO HOLD YOUR HAND??
I no longer GARA! Okay? It's YOUR AIRPLANE, you figure it out!
I no longer GARA! Okay? It's YOUR AIRPLANE, you figure it out!
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Chuck Ellsworth
- Rank 11
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- Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
- Location: Always moving
Re: Why Do I Go On and On and ON about Surface Contamination??
I don't know Rocky, like Doc I have the wrong attitude and have decided to leave all this stuff for you pros to give advice to anyone that asks questions.How's that .?
Then some day if they manage to live as long as Doc and I have flying and someone asks them where they learned all that stuff from they can say, from Rocky.
Of course if they ask who is Rocky they would just have to say...I don't know, but that was his handle on Avcanada.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Why Do I Go On and On and ON about Surface Contamination??
I don't know why you guys are so defensive. Why is it so hard to accept that someone else besides you might know what they're doing?
Re: Why Do I Go On and On and ON about Surface Contamination??
Well Doc.
Was the question rehatorical (how the hell do you spell that?), or did you find your answer amongst the many tidbits of wisdom offered here?
If you havent, have a read on the other surface contamination thread. Poster there tells of taking off with frost. Letter from transport. And ....well looks like he still thinks it ok. What do you figure will make him see the light....and I dont mean the one at the end of the tunnel after he crashes.
I wish you luck in getting the message across. Seems to me the smart ones dont need the message, and the stupid ones, dont get it anyway.
Was the question rehatorical (how the hell do you spell that?), or did you find your answer amongst the many tidbits of wisdom offered here?
If you havent, have a read on the other surface contamination thread. Poster there tells of taking off with frost. Letter from transport. And ....well looks like he still thinks it ok. What do you figure will make him see the light....and I dont mean the one at the end of the tunnel after he crashes.
I wish you luck in getting the message across. Seems to me the smart ones dont need the message, and the stupid ones, dont get it anyway.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Re: Why Do I Go On and On and ON about Surface Contamination??
Trey, you're right, but I'm not aiming my comments at folks like Rockie. I'm aiming that a pilots who, sometimes need to stop and think. Guys like Rockie have it figured out. So do you. Cat has the message, and tries to pass on reminders to the kids. Not always worth his efforts. Nor mine.
BTW, the guy "on the other" forum...he had it figured out many years ago. He knows what he's doing. Take my word for it. Wish I knew what he knew. Or half of it. He knows exactly what his airplane will do. To the inch.
Cat and I are really trying to open eyes. If your eyes are open, that's a god thing. I'm not going to hit all the fine points every time. Nobody does. I'm trying to ad awareness to situations that tend to kill pilots every year. That's all. I don't know everything. Nobody knows everything. But everybody knows something. That's the point. It's an exchange of ideas and knowledge that just might be of help to someone. If people would rather we didn't, we won't.
BTW, the guy "on the other" forum...he had it figured out many years ago. He knows what he's doing. Take my word for it. Wish I knew what he knew. Or half of it. He knows exactly what his airplane will do. To the inch.
Cat and I are really trying to open eyes. If your eyes are open, that's a god thing. I'm not going to hit all the fine points every time. Nobody does. I'm trying to ad awareness to situations that tend to kill pilots every year. That's all. I don't know everything. Nobody knows everything. But everybody knows something. That's the point. It's an exchange of ideas and knowledge that just might be of help to someone. If people would rather we didn't, we won't.
Re: Why Do I Go On and On and ON about Surface Contamination??
Doc
First of all I admire your efforts to bring about awareness, and hope you dont stop.
I will defer to your wisdom about that other poster. But you know, for the life of me, I cant figure out how to tell where the limit of frost on a wing is without actually keep trying until it doesnt work. And that is really the crux of the problem. Hope your guy never makes a mistake, as he is not even allowed one.
My point, on the other thread is that for years we have been using the same methods to try and get this point across. Maybe its time we try something different. If we go down the wrong path and find ourselves back at the beginning, running faster the second time is not going to work any better at getting us to the goal.
My concern is that these tales of "there I was" do not, in fact, convey the message that should be conveyed.
I will leave it at that. I thought maybe yous simple approach would work better. Hope it does.
In the meantime, to all those pilots out there...take it from an old guy here wh o has been there...you dont wnat to brag that you have been there when you are older. Dont go with surface contamination, and ignore those who tell you they have done it.. They were lucky. Not skillful. Not professional. Lucky. If you want to base your career, your life, and your passangers lives on being lucky, you need to change professions.
First of all I admire your efforts to bring about awareness, and hope you dont stop.
I will defer to your wisdom about that other poster. But you know, for the life of me, I cant figure out how to tell where the limit of frost on a wing is without actually keep trying until it doesnt work. And that is really the crux of the problem. Hope your guy never makes a mistake, as he is not even allowed one.
My point, on the other thread is that for years we have been using the same methods to try and get this point across. Maybe its time we try something different. If we go down the wrong path and find ourselves back at the beginning, running faster the second time is not going to work any better at getting us to the goal.
My concern is that these tales of "there I was" do not, in fact, convey the message that should be conveyed.
I will leave it at that. I thought maybe yous simple approach would work better. Hope it does.
In the meantime, to all those pilots out there...take it from an old guy here wh o has been there...you dont wnat to brag that you have been there when you are older. Dont go with surface contamination, and ignore those who tell you they have done it.. They were lucky. Not skillful. Not professional. Lucky. If you want to base your career, your life, and your passangers lives on being lucky, you need to change professions.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
