Am I allowed to?

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niss
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Am I allowed to?

Post by niss »

As an owner, am I allowed to replace the baffle material on my engine?

I was also interested in replacing the instrument panel covering with a custom made metal one, c'est bon?

Thanks!
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small penguin
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by small penguin »

Good questions niss. Unfortunately I dont think so though.

Elementary Maintenance states what you can and cannot do as an owner. Kinda sucks though.

But wait for the mechs to give you a definitive answer.
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Jungle Jim
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by Jungle Jim »

Niss,

Talk to Joe. He's usually pretty good if he knows what you are planning and you keep him up to speed on what you are doing and if you use the proper materials and work practices. ( You should probably put some air in the tires first. They were looking kind of flat on Sunday)


Jim
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niss
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by niss »

Jungle Jim wrote:Niss,

Talk to Joe. He's usually pretty good if he knows what you are planning and you keep him up to speed on what you are doing and if you use the proper materials and work practices. ( You should probably put some air in the tires first. They were looking kind of flat on Sunday)


Jim
LOL ya no Kidding, ill probably get out there tomorrow night to pump em up. I got a new instructor btw, hopefully I can get this stupid ppl done!

Thanks guys!
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black hole
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by black hole »

NO: You have got to pay an AME to do just like everyone else.

BH
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Strega
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by Strega »

Yes pay an ame to remove and replace the baffling material,

This is a highly skilled task, that requires many years of training and experience to acomplish.
In fact, I would not add air to the tires, as this to, is a specialized task, and although might be permited under "elementary" maint, you probably dont have the need skills and or experience to to it properly.



BS!!!!!!

Actually if you read the car outlining elementary maint, it says you may repair them:

"4) repair of non-structural fairings, cover plates and cowlings, on small privately operated aircraft;
(amended 2004/03/01
; previous version)"

Black hole seems to be living in a black hole.

and if you contest that he is repairing the cowling:

"A cowling is a covering of a vehicle's engine, most often found on automobiles and aircraft. Cowlings can serve multiple purposes, including aerodynamics, cooling of an engine by directing airflow, as an air intake for jet engines, and for aesthetic or decorative purposes."

ref wikipedia
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twistedoldwrench
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by twistedoldwrench »

Baffle seals are one of those things that a lot of people, including AME's overlook, and become complacent about, the fact that you recognize the need to replace them is a credit to your understanding of you aircraft's cooling system!, I would ask YOUR AME for advice with respect to his recommendation for material and fastening methods, maybe even buy the materials from him, and get 'er done.
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Hedley
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by Hedley »

Niss: READ THE BLOODY LINK above, which
defines "elementary maintenance" for you.

Note the following is defined as elementary
maintenance:
(14) repair of upholstery, trim and cabin furnishings;
And therefore, you can legally do it yourself
on your privately owed light aircraft.
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SeptRepair
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by SeptRepair »

A good place to buy baffle seal is a place called McFarlane Aviation. They are online and have a great online purchasing system. I have used them quite often and their customer service is incredible. I'm cheap and use USPS, but if your willing to pay a bit more you can always FedEx it up to yourself. Their kits come with rivets, so ya may need to get a hold of a rivet gun and a bucking bar. Being they cost money and your wanting to perform maintenance on your own aircraft to save money, I'm guessing you wont go out and buy a rivet gun set. Ive seen baffles installed with Cambodian Tire Pop Rivets, ( not condoning it) and I have seen them held in with screws and nuts. I guess depending on your level of competency with hand tools and what your budget is, which way you decide to install them will be up to you.
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Strega
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by Strega »

check out aircraft spruce as well


http://www.aircraftspruce.com/
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twotter
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by twotter »

Hedley wrote:Niss: READ THE BLOODY LINK above, which
defines "elementary maintenance" for you.

Note the following is defined as elementary
maintenance:
(14) repair of upholstery, trim and cabin furnishings;
And therefore, you can legally do it yourself
on your privately owed light aircraft.
Being that baffle seal is not one of the above I would think that it does not apply. It is in fact a fairly important part of the engine cooling and I personally would not think that it would come under the Elementary tasks as defined. Therefore, how will you release the airplane after you do it? If you do it and not put it in the logbook or you do and you are not allowed to, your CofA will be invalid because of the maintenance done to the airplane without the appropriate certification. So, without a valid CofA your insurance will be void.. Think about it before you go jumping into things based on what people say on here!!

BTW if you use a type of baffle seal not on the type approval or have other approval for your type, you will also not be in compliance so your CofA will not be valid.

Get a good shop to do it for you and have it done right..
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Strega
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by Strega »

twotter wrote:
Hedley wrote:Niss: READ THE BLOODY LINK above, which
defines "elementary maintenance" for you.

Note the following is defined as elementary
maintenance:
(14) repair of upholstery, trim and cabin furnishings;
And therefore, you can legally do it yourself
on your privately owed light aircraft.
Being that baffle seal is not one of the above I would think that it does not apply. It is in fact a fairly important part of the engine cooling and I personally would not think that it would come under the Elementary tasks as defined. Therefore, how will you release the airplane after you do it? If you do it and not put it in the logbook or you do and you are not allowed to, your CofA will be invalid because of the maintenance done to the airplane without the appropriate certification. So, without a valid CofA your insurance will be void.. Think about it before you go jumping into things based on what people say on here!!

BTW if you use a type of baffle seal not on the type approval or have other approval for your type, you will also not be in compliance so your CofA will not be valid.

Get a good shop to do it for you and have it done right..
I have actually fixed the "done right" baffle jobs that a certain shop did.

and the type approval BS for baffling on a PA-28?

anyway
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KISS_MY_TCAS
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by KISS_MY_TCAS »

WHOA!
Strega hit the nail on the head, niss can re-baffle all he wants. twotter, while I normally respect your opinion on the board anyone can pop-rivet new rubber onto the engine baffles, it is not rocket science so long as he pays attention as to how the rubber baffling lays when the cowls are on to understand the airflow. niss, peek though the front of the cowl with a good flashlight before and after replacement to assure you have achieved the same result, you should find the new baffles fit the same way but tighter than the old ones. And as Strega pointed out, it is covered under elementary maintenance so no worries about a log entry. It is your engine so you want to ensure the rubber lays the correct way, otherwise the problems caused by temp buildup are your own fault. Not rocket science, look through the openings at the front before replacement and again after to ensure it hasn't folded over the wrong direction after being re-cowled, if it has you have made an error. If it is tighter after the repair you will see a diifference in temps.
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CID
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by CID »

twotter's right. Baffles are not covered under the definition. Baffles aren't just some insignificant part. It's not always just a matter of replenishing the material. You need to "conform" the repair to the type design data.

It's not a super difficult task, but that's not the point. The guidelines for user maintenance are meant to allow maintenance that replenishes parts that don't require any detailed assessment of conformity.
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small penguin
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by small penguin »

Sadly... those definitions are very vague.
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by CID »

Oh, and by the way. Baffles aren't technically a part of the cowling. They are part of the powerplant installation.
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Hedley
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by Hedley »

those definitions are very vague
You say that like it's a bad thing?

P.S. My quote about interior repair was in response
to niss's question about his instrument panel (re-read
his original posting) NOT the baffle repair question. Duh.

WRT to baffles the closest elementary maintenance
item is probably:
(4) repair of non-structural fairings, cover plates and cowlings, on small privately operated aircraft;
As to whether or not a baffle is part of the cowling,
well, there seems to be some disagreement here.

I suppose you could always go to the Tribunal
and get their opinion, if Transport insisted.

All this legal mumbo-jumbo is nice, but don't
forget at the end of the day, what really
matters is that good work was done on the aircraft.
Anybody been following what's been happening
south of the border? All sorts of stuff had very
good paperwork, but the FAA didn't like the
work that had been done.

Niss, I might humbly suggest that you develop
a good relationship with a local AME - the one
who signs off your annual - and ask him these
sorts of questions. He should be able to help
you out, doing quality work with quality parts,
and keep the paperwork legal.
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itismedd
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by itismedd »

Niss,
Looking at the elementary maintenance link here on this thread, I would say yes to the instrument panel cover. But unless your engine is sitting in the cockpit with you, I would say no to the baffle seal because it does not fall under "repair of upholstery, trim and cabin furnishings". You should take twotter's advice.....he has some good points.

Cheers
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niss
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by niss »

Thanks for the input guys! I will go over it with my AME and see what he says. I guess at the end of the day as long as it stays out of an NTSB report it works right? :roll:
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Strega
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by Strega »

I hope you mean the TSB....
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niss
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by niss »

LOL, thats the one. I guess the less familiar I am with them the better?
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by MCRS »

If all your concerned about is the cost ask your AME if They would let you do the baffles then have the AME check and verify your work (Kind of an intro to Aprentiod life!) I am sure if your AME hasn't a problem with Showing you what to do, and how to do it you could do it yourself, under loose supervision. Same with the instrument panel, Draw out what you want, how you want it Ask your AME or Structures AME to give input as to wither your dream panel will work then help them make it. I am sure they would let you drill the holes in the new panel sheet! I wouldn't have a problem with you drilling the holes for the layout. That way I can charge you for another Sheet of Aluminum to fix what you messed up ! :)
(Kidding!)

And What's this CID and Twotter finally agreeing on something! Hell must have froze over boys! :shock: :smt040
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by tiggermoth »

Well, here is my 2 cents, from another AME. You MIGHT be able to squeak the work in under the elementary maintenance bit about "non-structural fairings" but I would be very careful about that. I would do as MCRS suggested and talk to your AME about just supervising your work, and then signing it. That way, no matter which way you look at it, you are legal. The AME should be comfortable signing it out as long as he/she has truly supervised and inspected it properly. If everything is done according to the appropriate standards (eg, Maint. Manual or AC 43-13, or whatever), everybody is happy. You save a bit of coin by doing your own work, the AME makes a bit of coin by supervising your work, and Transport is happy everything is legal. 8)

As far as the instrument panel, I would say go for it as that does qualify as cabin furnishings.

Here is another idea, hop in your little airplane (with instructor if you do not have your license) and come visit me, I would be glad to help you out :D
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by wrenchturner »

CID wrote:twotter's right.
Anybody else shocked to see those words from CID??
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niss
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Re: Am I allowed to?

Post by niss »

MCRS wrote:Same with the instrument panel, Draw out what you want, how you want it Ask your AME or Structures AME to give input as to wither your dream panel will work then help them make it. I am sure they would let you drill the holes in the new panel sheet! I wouldn't have a problem with you drilling the holes for the layout. That way I can charge you for another Sheet of Aluminum to fix what you messed up ! :)
(Kidding!)
Actually at work we have a sheet metal shop with a CNC plasma table. And I can order any metal I want. I dont think I will be drilling too much :D
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