Discontinuing the V.H.F D.F service

[x-wind]

Nav can did a study and it looks like they are going to discontinue the D.F system.

Anyone ever have to use it? Anyone going to miss it?


Proposed changes.

http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefiniti ... ion_en.pdf

[Old Dog Flying]

As a controller, I've used the VHF/DF many times to help a lost soul and found it to be a very useful tool. With the remoted radars now in place in towers and Fss units, the DF has been relegated to the scrap heap. There was a problem getting spare parts and of course a big problem in trying to train people to use it properly...and safely.

At Camp Borden during the PFS days, we used the DF to set up holding patterns and letdowns to the runway during bad weather. At Downsview, it was the only let down tool during the Vampire and early T-33 operations with the Reserve Squadrons. At Pitt Meadows, we had a full weather breaking procedure to R26L.

We were often required to use it to recover aircraft in really crappy weather...500 and 1/2....

The good old days when controllers could move metal!

[freakonature]

Old Dog Flying,what was the procedure for using a DF in a let down? You mention a full weather breaking procedure. How did that work?

[Old Dog Flying]

We steered the aircraft to overhead the DF site by using frequent transmissions and when overhead gave them a heading to steer outbound with additional transmissions to verify the o/b track. Like an ADF approach, there was a set o/b altitude and descent to a penetration turn back to final which was timed by the controller. With practice we generally could have the aircraft lined up with the runway at 1/2 mile.

If the DF site was displaced from the runway environment, we used a minimum decent altitude to back overhead the site , then used a timed square pattern to get the poor sod close to the runway.

The cloud breaking procedure generally had weather limit of 1000/3 but when all else failed and things were getting a bit iffy we did bust limits.

[Captain CADORS]

Used it in demonstrations for students on cross country flights. It gave them reassurance that they could be found even if they were below radar altitudes. Kinda nice to have a "backup" system when the radar goes down too. I'm not crunching numbers for Nav Canada and have no idea the cost of upkeep but if it were up to me I'd keep it just for nostalgia value. Additionally, old technology has a way of helping us understand the big picture as well as illuminating current luxuries.

Yours,
CADORS

[FlyYukon]

Ive observed on one occasion Tower here at YXY bring an aircraft down through 4000' thick overcast, with no fuel, gps or ifr equipment, by steering him towards Lake Laberge, and back in for the runway. Saved his butt, and those he might have hit on the ground. It's a great tool for ATC to have, imo.

edit for spelling*

[freakonature]

Holy Crap!! Beer's would definatly be on me. I vote keep the df steer.

[NJ]

We still have one (albeit one that is U/S most of the time). But we do simulations every 6 months and can provide if required: no compass homing, estimated time and distance to the field, and a VDF cloud break plus a few others.

The rationalization in that report simply seems to be that if a site has had to do a DF procedure before, it should stay. I guess lightning does strike twice in the same spot by NC's rationalization in the report. If a site has good radar coverage, the DF can be cast away and every user can maintain a serviceable transponder at their own expense. For places with poor or no radar coverage, the DF or a similar piece of equipment will stay.

For my site specifically (YZF), we will probably keep our DF until they make airspace transponder mandatory (which may be sooner than later). There are enough bug-smashers around without a transponder that it's still the number two piece of equipment at the tower behind the binoculars. However the equipment is old and parts aren't available any more. The DF site was hit with lightning this summer and has been acting up since, so expect to see: VHF/DF U/S Til Armageddon in your NOTAM list. It's a real shame because the DF never lies.

[taylor498]

For those of you in support of keeping the DF steer, perhaps you should make sure you send off an email to NC: (the last page in X-wind's link)

To complete the study, NAV CANADA needs pilot input. What are your issues and concerns with this proposal?
•Please provide feedback on the VHF-DF Study to:

–aerostudy@navcanada.ca
–Rob Bishop (613) 563-5616

I've used it once, but only for fun up in Kamloops. I was curious to see how it worked and they gave me the simulated DF.

[1000 HP]

The DF steer guys in NWO saved my ass back in '86. I was lost/off course at night and they got me back before I ran out of fuel....Is it worth keeping now? Don't really know. Most aircraft have GPS I suppose...

[iflyforpie]

DF saved me going into Williams Lake one time. I wasn't lost but another aircraft reported his position and altitude which was the exact same as mine. I immediately reported my position as the same and started frantically looking for the traffic but was unwilling to maneuver since I didn't know where he was.

Williams Lake radio provided us with the DF bearings which first told us that we weren't as close as to each other as we thought we were (think it was about five degrees at five miles, so about 1/2 mile) and second enabled us to plot a mutually divergent course.

[Airtids]

We had two separate occurrences over the years where students on x/c had to get DF steers (you can teach them all the flight-planning and nav in the world, but it does NO good if they don't actually use it ) from CYYF. Certainly glad we made DF steers part of the curriculum!

[G.N. Thompson]

See new one going in at YXJ, multilateration could get commissioned this fall too, maybe special VFR routes approval can follow.

[sigmet77]

Routes for what, heli or fixed?

[G.N. Thompson]

Application was for Heli, NE to Beatton River valley on GPS fixes...likely awaits FAA experience.