Can Airline Pilots Fly

[Doc]

I had an interesting conversation with an Otter driver last summer. His Uncle drives a 767 for our national airline. He's been having this on going argument with his uncle....can an airline captain fly as well as a bush rat.
Now, I've flown with a couple of ancient Pelicans who can sure fly me under the rug. And I can keep it right side up. I'll bet you Cat Driver can fly. I know his background. He can fly. I've had the privilege of being Liquid Charlie's co-pilot. That lad has the best hands I've ever seen. Before, or since. My present Chief Pilot is pretty smooth. Very smooth considering we don't let him fly that much!

Now, the only airline Captains I've flown with, however briefly, were a DC10 skipper from the now defunct British airline, Skytrain. I handed him the left seat on the Dak one night between YYZ and DET. A DC10 crew is a full load on a DC3! That guy could sure fly. One power reduction all the way to the ground. That's the barometer we should use. The goal we should strive for. A lost art.

The next was an Air Canada Captain, now retired. Pretty sure he retired on 767s. He was my co-pilot's dad. Into the left seat of the might Racer he went (I just love to torture these guys, don't I?) and the aircraft was flown as if on rails! Very smooth

You just knew that these guys had flown "back in the day" when "hands and feet" were the sign of a pilot (or a kick boxer?) thus they had gained a skill they would never loose. Like riding a bicycle. (I hate that cliche)

Oh, I nearly forgot. I had an L1011 Captain repeatedly try to kill me during a check out in a Cherokee. He could NOT flare at less than thirty feet.

I'm pretty sure airline Captains can fly.

So, who can fly better? A Bush Rat? An Airline Captain? Thaoughts?

[Nark]

I know at a few retired airlines bubba's who refuse to get into a Cherokee, for fear of flying said Cherokee like a heavy Boeing.

I say we dumb down aviation a bit for this discussion:

Landing a 400,000 lb 767 at whatever Vref they calculate, and landing a 172 at 65 (??) are both relative.

I say the pilot makes the plane, not the other way around.

[KAG]

Having been both in the bush and now the airlines, it’s not a matter of who can fly better, its getting good at what ever type of flying you do. Up north it's about hands and feet, decisions made regarding all aspects of the operation, and the final go, no go decision. While in airline world it’s all about dealing with crews, energy, time and FMC management.
If I were to jump back into a king air and asked to do a black whole circling approach, I would be out of my comfort zone. Take a bush driver, throw him/her into YYZ on the ground (let alone the air) and the same could be said.

[Cat Driver]

They are different disciplines and require different skills.

An airline pilot who was a bush rat can fly anything.

The new age MPL graduates can manage an airliner but would be fu.ked if they were given a Twin Otter and told to take a load out in the Arctic and land it on a esker.

[. .]

They are different disciplines and require different skills.

An airline pilot who was a bush rat can fly anything.

The new age MPL graduates can manage an airliner but would be fu.ked if they were given a Twin Otter and told to take a load out in the Arctic and land it on a esker.

I'm not sure that a MPL pilot could manage an airliner. There's a lot more to it than programming the FMS.

[Cat Driver]

O.K. in Europe MPL graduates can handle the duties of a first officer managing an airliner.

How you do it in Canada may be different.

[FICU]

If I were to jump back into a king air and asked to do a black whole circling approach, I would be out of my comfort zone.

Some airline pilots still do that in 737s.

[pika]

Oh, I nearly forgot. I had an L1011 Captain repeatedly try to kill me during a check out in a Cherokee. He could NOT flare at less than thirty feet.

I say we put you in an L1011 and see where you flare...

[Four1oh]

I think most airline captains would fly a c-150 as well as a C-150 instructor flies an airliner. Point is, while when I flew floats and single pilot IFR, my hands and feet were great for those planes. If someone had thrown me into a 737, I would have been in serious trouble. I probably could have flogged my way through it, but it wouldn't have been pretty. I've been on the boeing now for almost 9 years, and I doubt I could finesse a beaver as well as I did back then.

[Driving Rain]

I've been on the 215 and 415's for the past 22 years. The 215 and 415 both look the same but are entirely different animals. The 215 requires the pilots be smooth because the R 2800 doesn't like it when the prop drives the engine. It called for a steady power reduction and flat approaches. You could tell who were the good hands and feet guys in a 215 because it really does require finesse to fly one well. It's heavy flight controls are a handful in cross winds and turbulence.
The 415 on the other hand is a brute. It's powered flight controls and gas turbine engines is a real pilot leveler. The pilots that were somewhat ham fisted on 215's pulled even with the good hands and feet guys when we switched.
I am probably ruined now as pilot who would fly passengers. Most passengers would be filling honk bags because normal for me is nothing like normal for most other forms of fixed wing aviation. I still try to finesse, but 45 and 60 bank turns, power is either on or off very little of that in between stuff is now the norm for me.
Every now and then on ferry flights I try to handle her like a Dash 8. Walter Mitty would be proud.
A few years back I had the pleasure to spend the summer with 2 airline pilots. One was a furloughed United Airlines 767 driver and the other was a laid off ex Canada 3000 driver.
Both of them had previous bush time and both were great hands and feet guys on the 415's They both wanted to stay but permanent employment was going to be doubtful so one went to Cathay and the other is now back flying 767's.

[Doc]

Oh, I nearly forgot. I had an L1011 Captain repeatedly try to kill me during a check out in a Cherokee. He could NOT flare at less than thirty feet.

I say we put you in an L1011 and see where you flare...

I'm thinking, about ten feet AFTER impact? This is not in any way an airline captain "bashing" thread. I thought it would bring up some interesting points....and it has. Cheers

[Rockie]

Flight attendants and the general public have this perception that airline pilots are a bunch of fat, lazy slobs who are just sitting there staring out a window every time you look at them. A perception not helped by the constant reminders that aircraft these days can "land themselves", and the persistent attitude that it's just a matter of time before pilots won't be needed at all anymore.

What they don't see is the skill, judgement, and decision making ability that has been developed over the many years that fat, lazy slob has put in driving aircraft around. All of which is put to use inside his head while he's sitting there chewing on his sandwich.

There are very few airline pilots who didn't come up the hard way or do something far racier than their current job. Like I always say to the FA's, "it only looks like I'm not doing anything".

[DaveP]

For the past three years I have been heading back to Sioux Lookout on my holidays to fly floatplanes again. I'm currently flying for Westjet in the left seat and hadn't been in the ol' beaver for about 13 years (floatplane). I must admit it was a nervous endeavor ( I thank Wyn for re-training/putting up with me) and things were approached a little more cautious at first. I can honestly say it wasn't long after I had the "old running shoes" back on and flipped between airplanes quite easily enjoying the positives of both environments.

Absolutely nothing beats those calm glassy warm summer mornings in the floatplane.

Dave.

[bronson]

I was told you could make an IFR driver a whole lot easier than the other way 'round and I have always thought that it was true!

[Doc]

I was told you could make an IFR driver a whole lot easier than the other way 'round and I have always thought that it was true!

That's an interesting point. And with today's emphasis on computers and technology, I think you're probably correct. Kind of like skis vs. snow boards. If you're starting from scratch, boarding is easier. But, let me tell you, it's a bitch to switch!

[mcrit]

That's an interesting point. And with today's emphasis on computers and technology, I think you're probably correct. Kind of like skis vs. snow boards. If you're starting from scratch, boarding is easier. But, let me tell you, it's a bitch to switch!

Not sure I'm reading you right; Are you saying that its hard to go from steam gauges and un-automated cockpits to glass cockpits and automation? (I've never snow boarded so I'm not sure about your comparision there)

[Doc]

That's an interesting point. And with today's emphasis on computers and technology, I think you're probably correct. Kind of like skis vs. snow boards. If you're starting from scratch, boarding is easier. But, let me tell you, it's a bitch to switch!

Not sure I'm reading you right; Are you saying that its hard to go from steam gauges and un-automated cockpits to glass cockpits and automation? (I've never snow boarded so I'm not sure about your comparision there)

Okay, that wasn't all that clear. If you learned on skis, it's hard to switch to a board. But if you have done neither, boarding is easier than skiing. In the same way, I would think it easier to go with the automation over the steam dials....from being a non pilot. IFR from scratch would be an easier way to go.

Little story. I was in SEA doing some SIM on the 733. The guy who maintains the SIMs had his 12 year old daughter give us a demo on the SIM. It's all just a big computer game to her. She put that puppy through it's paces better than most of us could. It was a very humbling experience!
Impressive as she was, I doubt very much if she could handle a DHC6 off strip with such ease?

[mcrit]

Ok, that makes sense.

[Cat Driver]

I had an interesting conversation with an Otter driver last summer. His Uncle drives a 767 for our national airline.

When did West Jet get 767's?

[Just another canuck]

I had an interesting conversation with an Otter driver last summer. His Uncle drives a 767 for our national airline.

When did West Jet get 767's?

nyuk, nyuk, nyuk... lol

[Cat Driver]

Doc, lets set up a 200 hour bush pilot course so the Twin Otter operators have a good supply of pilots to replace the old dogs who will soon be retiring.

If a pilot can learn to fly an airliner in 200 hours a simple airplane like the Twin Otter should be a snap.

The 200 hour challenge

BY THOMAS B. HAINES
EDITOR IN CHIEF

AOPA PILOT, NOVEMBER 2008 (page 40)

At 200 hours were you ready for an ATP level checkride? Ready to fly as a first officer on an airliner? Ready to look over your left shoulder at paying passengers? Were those paying passengers ready for your next landing?

For most of us the answer to all would be no. But can it be done? Should it be done? Officials at the Commercial Airline Pilot Training (CAPT) Program say, yes, and yes. And more than 100 pilots now flying for airlines are proof that it can happen. "We're trying to break the old mold that you need 1,200 flight hours" to fly for an airline, says Chris Kokai, executive director of the CAPT Program. Based at Flagler County Airport just north of Daytona Beach, Florida, the program is owned by Georgia based FTS International. FTS purchased the program from Embry Riddle Aeronautical University in August 2006.

While the U.S. training market is in the doldrums, international demand for airline pilots is still soaring. As of September, CAPT was training about 200 students, 185 of them from China. The balance are either recent college graduates seeking an airline career or career changers chucking the desk job for their dream of flying the line. The CAPT Program's $100,000 price tag is certainly a deterrent for some, admits Kokai, but the quality and efficiency of the program allows the student to move into a career quickly, often with a leg up on those who choose a more traditional training route. For one thing, the CAPT students exit the program with a Boeing MD 90 type rating. Although not many airlines fly the MD-90, the fact that the students have been trained on big iron systems and glass cockpits eases the training burden on the hiring airline.

How can this be?
Thinking back to my own flight training and watching my 15 year old daughter work her way through a conventional training program, I find it hard to believe that students with as, few as 200 hours are saddling up a 150,000 pound, 150 passenger airliner after passing an ATP level type rating course.

The key, says Kokai, is a structured training course designed to take zero time students through private pilot and commercial certificates while adding on multiengine and instrument ratings in 200 hours. Intense emotional and psychological screening removes from consideration students not suited to that style of training. The company accepts only about 70 percent of the students who apply. Most students come to the program with zero time.

Students, who are required to wear uniforms, are in training six days a week. A typical day starts with a one hour prebrief; a 1.5 hour flight; another 1.5 hours riding in the backseat acting as a copilot while another student flies, and a one hour debrief. The backseat student has a push to talk switch and is expected to act as a copilot, managing radios, charts, navigation, and checklists. In addition, the students spend several additional hours daily in ground school and studying. An instructor facilitates the briefings, but the students are expected to score themselves and their partnersan effort to assure that they are used to challenging the authority of the captain. In cockpit video cameras prove to be powerful tools in helping students understand weaknesses both in flying and in crew coordination. "We don't train you to pass a checkride, we train you to be a captain in a Transport category jet with command authority," explains Kokai.

The students move seamlessly through ratings and certificates. "We wouldn't even solo them except the FAA requires it," he says.

The school utilizes a fleet of new Cirrus SR20s for primary and instrument training and the initial parts of the commercial training. The balance of the commercial training and the multiengine training is done in new Piper Seminoles with Avidyne Entegra panels nearly identical to those in the SR20s. The school is evaluating the purchase of various turbine airplanes to give students experience in turbine operations. From there it's a short hike to the right seat of an airliner, perhaps as little as 12 months from when the student first set foot in an airplane.

[Rockie]

If everything works within a very narrow set of parameters it can be done. You can train a kid to do it. But there will be no understanding of how the automation works, what level of automation is appropriate or how to use it when things move outside those parameters, and if things start to go wrong...well, it's game over. There will be no understanding of flying in general which, believe it or not, is still required. There will be no decision making ability. No judgement. No ability to fly the aircraft without the autopilot. No understanding of the limitations of the airplane which includes what it can't do as well as what it can do. No practical understanding of high altitude flight. No practical understanding of swept wing handling characteristics or large aircraft handling. I could go on, and on, and on.

People who think automated aircraft are easy to fly simply have no understanding of the airplane.

[Cat Driver]

Rockie some of us do, and we also know you won't get paid an extra bonus for being an instructor with these MPL whizzes.

[Doc]

Cute idea Cat. Problem is, with the Twin Otter, you would actually have to be able to FLY the thing. If (and I respect what Rockie says about an automated airplane being hard to fly...they really are with the "magic" turned off!) all the goodies work, and are not screwed with, a modern airline will operate with little more than a babysitter at the helm. Auto throttles for take off. LNAV and VNAV and autopilot on out of about four hundred feet. Tell the FMS what you want (basic computer skills will do here) and leave two autopilots on for the auto land. They even have auto brake. It'll stop you on the center line. Every time. Till something untoward happens. Then it would all go for a supreme shit RFN!
The Twin Otter will do none of this shit! You will have to "drive her McGiver"!
It's kind of like the Seneca grads (just an example) getting into the right seats of the RJ. But, I'm willing to bet, the Seneca guys will be able to fly the asses off these CAPT grads.
Monkey see, Monkey do.

[F/O Crunch]