Young A330 FO
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Young A330 FO
So I was at YYZ terminal 3 to pick up a family member and happened to see the KLM crew that flew my family back to Toronto. The FO was standing around as the Captain was talking to info desk so I walked up and we started chatting. Very friendly guy. Turns out he's 26, flying the A330-200 for KLM for the last 5 months. Before that he spent 2 years SO on an MD-11 and right seat on Fokker 50 for 2 years before that. This guy had less than 2500hrs and right seating on a wide body Airbus. Of course turns out situation there right now is not so good and he also forked out 120,000 Euros for his training with no job guarantee, he just happened to luck out.
Discuss..
BTW I didnt tell him I was a pilot, I was too ashamed since what I fly now as a commercial pilot is what he flew while training.
Discuss..
BTW I didnt tell him I was a pilot, I was too ashamed since what I fly now as a commercial pilot is what he flew while training.
Last edited by LegoMan on Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Young A330 FO
Actually not forever. But even forever means that his salary as FO tops out at $162,000 Euros +/yr For that kind of money Id gladly be FO for life!
Re: Young A330 FO
Legoman,
here is the gap between aviation in europe and north america especially canada
but if we start comparing, we should compare the variety of flying vs education
being a pilot in europe requires to be very brilliant in engineering, maths, physics & science
by reading different threads on Avcanada you might know wath is pilot's comon position toward studies
those differences are only 2 different ways to select those who will be abble to reach their dream or not
but there is a reason why
you don't have such a variety of operations, no bush flying, no703, no independant operator looking for cheap pilots to fly their cans for peanuts
the 60* is so far that it is an abstraction, there is no king air but falcons and yes,you have to pay for your own rating without any guarantee and the "no guarantee" doesn't make it a "buy your job" because you dont know what's gonna happen as everybody is doing the same...
in the other, hand you get a real job where you're paid more than correctly, a retirement plan, good maintenance great pay and a good schedule - but you didn't do what every other pilot in canada did for a living which is not a shame and revealing the differences can be great.
comparing could also be a good idea to raise standards in canada...................
here is the gap between aviation in europe and north america especially canada
but if we start comparing, we should compare the variety of flying vs education
being a pilot in europe requires to be very brilliant in engineering, maths, physics & science
by reading different threads on Avcanada you might know wath is pilot's comon position toward studies
those differences are only 2 different ways to select those who will be abble to reach their dream or not
but there is a reason why
you don't have such a variety of operations, no bush flying, no703, no independant operator looking for cheap pilots to fly their cans for peanuts
the 60* is so far that it is an abstraction, there is no king air but falcons and yes,you have to pay for your own rating without any guarantee and the "no guarantee" doesn't make it a "buy your job" because you dont know what's gonna happen as everybody is doing the same...
in the other, hand you get a real job where you're paid more than correctly, a retirement plan, good maintenance great pay and a good schedule - but you didn't do what every other pilot in canada did for a living which is not a shame and revealing the differences can be great.
comparing could also be a good idea to raise standards in canada...................

Re: Young A330 FO
Well I've also noticed that in other parts of the world, Europe, Asia, Middle East, pilots are treated like professionals and paid as such. Here in Canada all I see if cheap operators trying to make a quick buck, finding the most experienced pilot to pay him the least amount of money. Its sad.
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Re: Young A330 FO
Completely different atmosphere over there. No endless amounts of land and ice, no 2000 foot gravel strips, also minimal GA as well. Rented in the Netherlands for 295 Euro's an hour if I remember right for a Piper Cherokee. Was talking with the instructor who flew with me, said he was in the interview process with Lufthansa Regional (Cityhopper???), hardly any multi-time or IFR time. However, he had a University degree and spoke four languages. How many Canadian pilots have this type of schooling? This education is what it takes to get the foot in the door with the major airlines over there, that or military experience.
Re: Young A330 FO
If that number was correct that is 180k Can. Ouch. Even at 50k a year here thats about a 10 year payback scheme. What a shitty business.
Re: Young A330 FO
Do airplanes fly differently in Europe than in North America?being a pilot in europe requires to be very brilliant in engineering, maths, physics & science
Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
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— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
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Re: Young A330 FO
Nigel, you're transmitting on guard... 

I want to die like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming in terror like his passengers...
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Re: Young A330 FO
Yes they do.Strega wrote:Do airplanes fly differently in Europe than in North America?being a pilot in europe requires to be very brilliant in engineering, maths, physics & science
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Re: Young A330 FO
Never saw a KLM 330 in YYZ, the MD-11 has no S/O. Read up on PPrune Middle East your just slave labour on a higher pay scale, no labour laws and the rules always change.
Re: Young A330 FO
Care to go into more detail? PPrune is down with a database error at the moment...Fred Flinstone wrote:Never saw a KLM 330 in YYZ, the MD-11 has no S/O. Read up on PPrune Middle East your just slave labour on a higher pay scale, no labour laws and the rules always change.
No trees were harmed in the transmission of this message. However, a rather large number of electrons were temporarily inconvenienced.
Re: Young A330 FO
he is right though KLM only brings the 777 and the 747 into pearson.
Re: Young A330 FO
S/O is really cruise relief at KLM and they do run the 330 out of YYZ . Not normal but I flew it once YYZ to AMS and on to KRT.
Aviation in everywhere uit North America is different no GA, no 704 type ops. all 705 type transport operations. Very theory based licensing system not based on practical experience.
Aviation in everywhere uit North America is different no GA, no 704 type ops. all 705 type transport operations. Very theory based licensing system not based on practical experience.
Re: Young A330 FO
So which system is better?
Experience or Theory?
I'd say Experience, but it seems like experience is somehow causing pilot's to accept to work for lower standards.... Ironic.
You'd think experience would teach you to do otherwise !
Experience or Theory?
I'd say Experience, but it seems like experience is somehow causing pilot's to accept to work for lower standards.... Ironic.
You'd think experience would teach you to do otherwise !
Re: Young A330 FO
MD-11 used to operate a few years back to South America, Asia and did have a cruise pilot. Nowadays they are not flying them long haul as they have more efficient A330s and 777s. The A330 comes in a few times a week along with the 777 and 747
Re: Young A330 FO
MD-11: no flight engineer, have seen a klm md11 crew with an RP/second officer
DC-10 has a flight engineer or s/o
DC-10 has a flight engineer or s/o
Re: Young A330 FO
When did we switch from FO to SO? Is there still an altitude restriction for SO's in the chair?
Re: Young A330 FO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z42fchrzhHYSo which system is better?
I didn't know they were mutually exclusive. I mightExperience or Theory?
humbly suggest both, but since I am only an ATPL
airshow pilot with an engineering degree, I will defer
to the opinions of the hotter sticks here, that have
more education.
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Re: Young A330 FO
I grew up in Canada (Edmonton). Joined KLM at 23 as a second officer on the Boeing 747-200/300 (after a couple of years up north), this is not an flight engineer. It is a cruise relief pilot (only allowed to occupy any pilot seat above FL200 in normal conditions). In case of an emergency they leave the seat when the situation has stabilized (so in case of an emergency descend at FL100 or safe altitude). The Second Officer is only on flight longer than 9 hours.
I made First Officer Boeing 747-200/300 just before I turned 26, Captain B767 age 37, Captain B777 age 42 (a few years ago). Just happened to be lucky. The A330 does go to Toronto on occassion, and is scheduled to do the second daily flight during most of the summer schedule. The careers certainly aren't as good or fast as they once were, and my situation is unlikely to reoccur in the foreseeable future.
I made First Officer Boeing 747-200/300 just before I turned 26, Captain B767 age 37, Captain B777 age 42 (a few years ago). Just happened to be lucky. The A330 does go to Toronto on occassion, and is scheduled to do the second daily flight during most of the summer schedule. The careers certainly aren't as good or fast as they once were, and my situation is unlikely to reoccur in the foreseeable future.
Last edited by memorylapse on Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Young A330 FO
DC 10 has not MD 11swordfish wrote:I think an MD11 DOES have a flight engineer.
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Re: Young A330 FO
Its the North American way in most industries... anything to make a buck... look at the IT industry now as well, import from overseas and pay min wage while there are thousands of qualified workers already here, but demand more pay.... pilots are different, they'll do almost anything for almost free, and everyone over here knows it..
LegoMan wrote:Well I've also noticed that in other parts of the world, Europe, Asia, Middle East, pilots are treated like professionals and paid as such. Here in Canada all I see if cheap operators trying to make a quick buck, finding the most experienced pilot to pay him the least amount of money. Its sad.
Re: Young A330 FO
I walked into the cockpit of a KLM flight from AMS to Dar es Salam about ten years ago. Started chatting with the guys and noticed how young they were. The aircraft was a B767-300er. The captain was 27 and the FO was 29. I was really happy for them.
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