How they address this "void" when they go public is what should have the greatest effect on determining the support for the initiative. IMHO of course.wish to fill an obvious void - the void into which safety concerns fall due to the lack of filter, if you will, between Transport Canada and the owners and operators.
College of Pilots?
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
Re: College of Pilots?
Agreed. It was that part of their objective that most interested me in what I was given to say at the Table - that they
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
Re: College of Pilots?
Hello Gentlemen and Ladies,
There appears to be a lot of misinformation on this thread. Hopefully as the College forms and molds there will be more information broadcast which will reduce fears.
I personally know 2 pilots who are involved with this College initiative.
I have been told the College is not meant to be a union, and it is not meant to be a super seniority list.
From what I understand, TC is considering getting out of the licencing business. So if that happens, who will control licencing and qualifications of pilots? Do you want the ATAC? From what I understand the ATAC is comprised of representatives of airline management. Airlines do not own our licences! WE OWN OUR LICENCES!
For the folks here who are worried about someone having control over their licence, or administering a membership fee, please consider TC already does this. TC charges fees, administers exams, and enforces the law with violations, fines, and licence suspensions. The only thing that would change in this respect is that the College would take over these duties.
Doctors, lawyers, occupational therapists, physio therapists, and accountants all have professional organizations. Why not pilots? Pilots require education, training, and evaluation just as the aforementioned professions.
Finally if this College could limit the number of commercial pilots entering the workforce then slowly over time the supply and demand could be balanced. It is not balanced right now and THAT is what leads to pilots flying $4,000,000 aircraft in demanding conditions, bearing a huge responsibility and earning less then a CAB DRIVER.
Finally, I take exception with pilots who say this isn't rocket science or try to minimize what we do. This is a challenging, demanding profession which requires education, training, and evaluation. This profession requires constant study to keep up to date with the latest technology, information, and regulation. This profession constantly evolves and adapts with the latest theory on risk management, crew resource management and safety management. This profession requires years of experience for advancement. This profession requires discipline and maturity. The passengers I serve and the crew members I work with expect no less.
ps xsbank, liked your posts.
There appears to be a lot of misinformation on this thread. Hopefully as the College forms and molds there will be more information broadcast which will reduce fears.
I personally know 2 pilots who are involved with this College initiative.
I have been told the College is not meant to be a union, and it is not meant to be a super seniority list.
From what I understand, TC is considering getting out of the licencing business. So if that happens, who will control licencing and qualifications of pilots? Do you want the ATAC? From what I understand the ATAC is comprised of representatives of airline management. Airlines do not own our licences! WE OWN OUR LICENCES!
For the folks here who are worried about someone having control over their licence, or administering a membership fee, please consider TC already does this. TC charges fees, administers exams, and enforces the law with violations, fines, and licence suspensions. The only thing that would change in this respect is that the College would take over these duties.
Doctors, lawyers, occupational therapists, physio therapists, and accountants all have professional organizations. Why not pilots? Pilots require education, training, and evaluation just as the aforementioned professions.
Finally if this College could limit the number of commercial pilots entering the workforce then slowly over time the supply and demand could be balanced. It is not balanced right now and THAT is what leads to pilots flying $4,000,000 aircraft in demanding conditions, bearing a huge responsibility and earning less then a CAB DRIVER.
Finally, I take exception with pilots who say this isn't rocket science or try to minimize what we do. This is a challenging, demanding profession which requires education, training, and evaluation. This profession requires constant study to keep up to date with the latest technology, information, and regulation. This profession constantly evolves and adapts with the latest theory on risk management, crew resource management and safety management. This profession requires years of experience for advancement. This profession requires discipline and maturity. The passengers I serve and the crew members I work with expect no less.
ps xsbank, liked your posts.
Re: College of Pilots?
I was able to capture, on video, the "College of Professional Pilots" in action, recruiting new pilots.....interesting recruitment technique, to say the least....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8
Run Cat Driver....RUN....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8
Run Cat Driver....RUN....
Re: College of Pilots?
I am late to this current conversation. I still think there should be an evolution, first an association, then maybe a college. Below is a response I made from a thread back in the summer:
From the other thread "ready for a change in our industry?" viewtopic.php?f=54&t=56302. Seems like the discussion is going on here.
I think "iflyfor pie" captures the essence of a lot of good ideas mentioned here:
[quote]First is pay. We present the risks associated with low pay for pilots (poor food, inadequate housing, lack of health benefits) and translate that to risks it brings to the general public (hungry, fatigued pilots operating aircraft). The solution is either to pay the pilots more, or to reduce the financial burden of the pilots with subsidized housing, health benefits, etc. The Association needs to set standards of pay or other compensation based on the cost of living in the area the pilot is working.
Second is working conditions. Long duty days, poor maintenance, lack of training, company pressures, and many other factors again translate to increased risk to the pilot, and through the pilot to the general public. Again, the Association needs to set standards that will increase safety and reduce risks based on each type of operation.
Third is enforcement. These lovely goals with daisies all around are all fine and dandy, but they are only good intentions unless there is a method of enforcement. This would be by an anonymous reporting system set up for Association pilots; an independent watchdog committee to monitor companies and who have permission to either investigate errant companies or to direct Enforcement to do so; legal protection for pilots who are threatened with legal action, job termination, etc for reporting unsafe practices; and the ability to blacklist companies who do not meet Association standards. Also, the ability to remove a pilot from membership that does not uphold the standards set by the Association.[quote]
What he is speaking of I think is more in line of an "association", the term he uses, versus a "college". The discussion here seems to move back and forth between the 2 terms. They are 2 different things, in my understanding, and setting the focus on what it is we can do may help momentum here. For example, there is the "college of physicians and surgeons" and the provincial and national "medical associations" for doctors. There is the "college of psychologists" for each province and the provincial "association of psychologists". One is the governing body, sets regulations, etc., and the other is the association and advocate for the profession. Individuals in the profession have to qualify for the college and abide by the regulations and also belong to the associations.
I think an association is where we start. I don't think TC is ready to give up the qualification and regulation of licensing yet. An association can advocate what pilots think should be the regulations, what licensing standards should be. They could also study and advocate what a college of professional pilots could look like. It will be easier in the beginning to organize an association. That will also give legitimacy to a national voice of professional pilots. Out of that we could influence for a college in charge of licensing. I see that as one role for an association, albeit an important one. A college has its own limiting scopes as a regulator. In the end, we would have both but the beginning would be anasociation, the advocate for the profession.
I for one am not for a college that dictates how many people may have licenses. I would support improving training standards, knowledge required, etc. This may also include upping standards for the flight training units.
From the other thread "ready for a change in our industry?" viewtopic.php?f=54&t=56302. Seems like the discussion is going on here.
I think "iflyfor pie" captures the essence of a lot of good ideas mentioned here:
[quote]First is pay. We present the risks associated with low pay for pilots (poor food, inadequate housing, lack of health benefits) and translate that to risks it brings to the general public (hungry, fatigued pilots operating aircraft). The solution is either to pay the pilots more, or to reduce the financial burden of the pilots with subsidized housing, health benefits, etc. The Association needs to set standards of pay or other compensation based on the cost of living in the area the pilot is working.
Second is working conditions. Long duty days, poor maintenance, lack of training, company pressures, and many other factors again translate to increased risk to the pilot, and through the pilot to the general public. Again, the Association needs to set standards that will increase safety and reduce risks based on each type of operation.
Third is enforcement. These lovely goals with daisies all around are all fine and dandy, but they are only good intentions unless there is a method of enforcement. This would be by an anonymous reporting system set up for Association pilots; an independent watchdog committee to monitor companies and who have permission to either investigate errant companies or to direct Enforcement to do so; legal protection for pilots who are threatened with legal action, job termination, etc for reporting unsafe practices; and the ability to blacklist companies who do not meet Association standards. Also, the ability to remove a pilot from membership that does not uphold the standards set by the Association.[quote]
What he is speaking of I think is more in line of an "association", the term he uses, versus a "college". The discussion here seems to move back and forth between the 2 terms. They are 2 different things, in my understanding, and setting the focus on what it is we can do may help momentum here. For example, there is the "college of physicians and surgeons" and the provincial and national "medical associations" for doctors. There is the "college of psychologists" for each province and the provincial "association of psychologists". One is the governing body, sets regulations, etc., and the other is the association and advocate for the profession. Individuals in the profession have to qualify for the college and abide by the regulations and also belong to the associations.
I think an association is where we start. I don't think TC is ready to give up the qualification and regulation of licensing yet. An association can advocate what pilots think should be the regulations, what licensing standards should be. They could also study and advocate what a college of professional pilots could look like. It will be easier in the beginning to organize an association. That will also give legitimacy to a national voice of professional pilots. Out of that we could influence for a college in charge of licensing. I see that as one role for an association, albeit an important one. A college has its own limiting scopes as a regulator. In the end, we would have both but the beginning would be anasociation, the advocate for the profession.
I for one am not for a college that dictates how many people may have licenses. I would support improving training standards, knowledge required, etc. This may also include upping standards for the flight training units.
Last edited by loopy on Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: College of Pilots?
If it has >>>>><<<<<< it's mine. Balled it up a bit, but you catch the drift.yyc757 wrote:Hello Gentlemen and Ladies,
There appears to be a lot of misinformation on this thread. Hopefully as the College forms and molds there will be more information broadcast which will reduce fears.
>>>There is NO information, misinformation, or otherwise...that's the problem.<<<<
I personally know 2 pilots who are involved with this College initiative.
>>>>WOW....two pilots!<<<<<
I have been told the College is not meant to be a union, and it is not meant to be a super seniority list.
From what I understand, TC is considering getting out of the licencing business. So if that happens, who will control licencing and qualifications of pilots? Do you want the ATAC? From what I understand the ATAC is comprised of representatives of airline management. Airlines do not own our licences! WE OWN OUR LICENCES!
For the folks here who are worried about someone having control over their licence, or administering a membership fee, please consider TC already does this. TC charges fees, administers exams, and enforces the law with violations, fines, and licence suspensions. The only thing that would change in this respect is that the College would take over these duties.
Doctors, lawyers, occupational therapists, physio therapists, and accountants all have professional organizations. Why not pilots? Pilots require education, training, and evaluation just as the aforementioned professions.
>>>>>Oh yah, we're just LIKE doctors, lawyers and the rest. We're all got at least 6 years of post-secondary school education. Just like doctors! Don't want to rain on your parade, but we're NOT doctors, OR lawyers.<<<<<<<<
Finally if this College could limit the number of commercial pilots entering the workforce then slowly over time the supply and demand could be balanced. It is not balanced right now and THAT is what leads to pilots flying $4,000,000 aircraft in demanding conditions, bearing a huge responsibility and earning less then a CAB DRIVER.
>>>>>>And what would give them the "right" to limit numbers of pilots? Is anybody anywhere else in this country allowed to "limit" the number of people pursuing a certain career? Anybody "limiting" the number of the aforementioned doctors and lawyers?<<<<<<<
Finally, I take exception with pilots who say this isn't rocket science or try to minimize what we do. This is a challenging, demanding profession which requires education, training, and evaluation. This profession requires constant study to keep up to date with the latest technology, information, and regulation. This profession constantly evolves and adapts with the latest theory on risk management, crew resource management and safety management. This profession requires years of experience for advancement. This profession requires discipline and maturity. The passengers I serve and the crew members I work with expect no less.
>>>>>>>Take "exception" to whatever you like. I know guys who do very well in this "profession" with no high school diploma. It, simply is NOT rocket science!<<<<<<<<<
ps xsbank, liked your posts.
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Pitot/SAS/Low/Auto
- Rank 1
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- Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: College of Pilots?
Absolutely. Couldn't have said it better.Cat Driver wrote: The biggest fear I have is if there is not an open transparent method of selecting those in management of the group it can and probably will turn into another circle jerk for those who seek positions of power over performance.
Re: College of Pilots?
YYC757 said the following…
I suppose we could always set the bar at, lets say… mediocrity for 705 positions and simple possession of a commercial licence for 703 & 704. Advance anybody that can get through a ground school and a ride for 705 and simply hire on a first come first serve basis for 703 & 704.
That might help clear up the log jam of low time guys that are having a difficult time finding employment when they are first starting out and increase the pool of qualified pilots for the airlines to draw from as the grey hairs retire.
As well as this gem…Finally if this College could limit the number of commercial pilots entering the workforce then slowly over time the supply and demand could be balanced.
Airlines should put expansion plans, start-ups etc on hold until those looking for employment are happy with the balance? The often discussed pilot shortage is projected at the airline level not the 703 entry level. As you have already pointed out, it requires years of experience for advancement.This profession requires years of experience for advancement. This profession requires discipline and maturity. The passengers I serve and the crew members I work with expect no less.
I suppose we could always set the bar at, lets say… mediocrity for 705 positions and simple possession of a commercial licence for 703 & 704. Advance anybody that can get through a ground school and a ride for 705 and simply hire on a first come first serve basis for 703 & 704.
That might help clear up the log jam of low time guys that are having a difficult time finding employment when they are first starting out and increase the pool of qualified pilots for the airlines to draw from as the grey hairs retire.
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JohnnyHotRocks
- Rank (9)
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Re: College of Pilots?
Typical AvCanada...
complain about working conditions, salary, lack of benefits, etc...etc..., and then when someone steps up to do something about it, shit all over them!
Let's wait and see what it brings...can't be any worse that status quo!
complain about working conditions, salary, lack of benefits, etc...etc..., and then when someone steps up to do something about it, shit all over them!
Let's wait and see what it brings...can't be any worse that status quo!
Re: College of Pilots?
"can't be any worse than the status quo...."JohnnyHotRocks wrote:Typical AvCanada...
complain about working conditions, salary, lack of benefits, etc...etc..., and then when someone steps up to do something about it, shit all over them!
Let's wait and see what it brings...can't be any worse that status quo!
Spoken like a true newbe. News flash for ya.....it could ALWAYS be worse.
I'm of course, assuming you're alive?
That, and I haven't seen ANYTHING in "black and white" that would indicate an improvement in "working conditions, salary, lack of benefits, etc.....". Apparently, your have? Do share.
Or, wait and see.......worked for Europe in1939....
Re: College of Pilots?
"The advancement of flight safety, professional and technical standards in the public interest."
That's what it says - in black and white - on the dormant (to the public) website.
Sounds positive to me.
That's what it says - in black and white - on the dormant (to the public) website.
Sounds positive to me.
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
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mattedfred
- Rank (9)
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Re: College of Pilots?
i've read this entire thread and i've being trying to come up with an appropriate response but i can't seem to calm down enough to put anything reasonable into words
i'm totally embarrassed by the comments made by some of the posters in this thread
i'm really at a total loss for words
i'm totally embarrassed by the comments made by some of the posters in this thread
i'm really at a total loss for words
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Dust Devil
- Rank 11
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- Location: Riderville
Re: College of Pilots?
It could say rainbows and sunshine for all. It doesn't mean the methods will be correct.Widow wrote:"The advancement of flight safety, professional and technical standards in the public interest."
That's what it says - in black and white - on the dormant (to the public) website.
Sounds positive to me.
//=S=//
A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed
A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed
Re: College of Pilots?
Doctors, lawyers, occupational therapists, physio therapists, and accountants all have professional organizations. Why not pilots? Pilots require education, training, and evaluation just as the aforementioned professions.
(taken from the ontario college of physiotherapists)
IF TC gets out of licensing, than maybe this idea of a college of professional pilots could fill that void in a sense. How they go about all the other crap people are talking about is beyond me. (changing laws?)Self Regulation and the Role of the College
The College is a not-for-profit organization dedicated to regulating and continually improving the practice of physiotherapists in the public interest. This means that the College protects patients’ rights to safe, competent and ethical care by supporting physiotherapists to maintain the standards of practice of the profession and by also holding them accountable for their conduct and practice.
The work of a College is directed by a Council (similar to a Board of Directors) whose job it is to represent the interests of the public (i.e. the patients who seek physiotherapy services). The Council is made up of physiotherapists (who have been elected by their peers), academic representatives (from the universities in Ontario who provide entry level education programs) and members of the public (who have been appointed by the Lieutenant Governor of Ontario). Because physiotherapists are included as members of the decision-making body (the Council), this system of governing a profession is referred to as a self-regulation. However, it is the Regulated Health Professions Act (RHPA) [link] that directs what the College must do to regulate the practice of physiotherapists and gives health-care consumers a strong voice in the regulation of physiotherapists by requiring an equitable balance of public appointees and elected professionals on the College Council.
Having a group that represents pilots to lobby TC to change some rules may be a good thing, if there could ever be a way to represent everyone! (which sadly with a bunch of back stabbing people who want to move up, up up the ladder to fly big iron someday, the few left behind to make careers of flying king airs, beavers or C172's won't be heard over the whine)
Re: College of Pilots?
There appears to be two "schools" of thought here:
1. The so called College is sneaking around behind the scenes preparing to take over pilot licensing in Canada, with no input or say from those that could potentially be most affected by said College. While Transport Canada is supposed to go through proper legal channels including public debate before delegating control over laws and licensing to an external agency, we've seen them bypass this before with the CBAA and cover their asses with the legal stuff two years after the fact. It was discovered the CBAA didn't fare too well with this responsibility and authority when someone finally got around to auditing them. If Transport is foolish enough to try this tactic again I imagine there will be widespread outrage and protest.
2. The so called College is going to save aviation safety in Canada - assuming of course you're a white male airline pilot that doesn't mind the fact that the engineers that fixed your aircraft, the ground handlers who handled your flight and the numerous other people that had a hand in getting you on or off the ground are represented by no one and your safety protocols/protections don't exist in their world. So as you don your clean white gloves and silk scarf, preparing to blast off into the wild blue yonder, don't trouble yourself that a tired mechanic just worked 36 hours on your aircraft due to lack of duty regulations, and installed bogus parts under the threat from a disreputable operator who "forgot" to insure your aircraft and decided not to flight follow you....
Those who have good intentions do not hide behind closed doors, conducting their affairs in secret and excluding diversity, input and contribution from the masses.
There is no real safety unless the entire aviation industry has the same rights and protections - and achieving this requires people to work together.
Cheers,
Kirsten B.
1. The so called College is sneaking around behind the scenes preparing to take over pilot licensing in Canada, with no input or say from those that could potentially be most affected by said College. While Transport Canada is supposed to go through proper legal channels including public debate before delegating control over laws and licensing to an external agency, we've seen them bypass this before with the CBAA and cover their asses with the legal stuff two years after the fact. It was discovered the CBAA didn't fare too well with this responsibility and authority when someone finally got around to auditing them. If Transport is foolish enough to try this tactic again I imagine there will be widespread outrage and protest.
2. The so called College is going to save aviation safety in Canada - assuming of course you're a white male airline pilot that doesn't mind the fact that the engineers that fixed your aircraft, the ground handlers who handled your flight and the numerous other people that had a hand in getting you on or off the ground are represented by no one and your safety protocols/protections don't exist in their world. So as you don your clean white gloves and silk scarf, preparing to blast off into the wild blue yonder, don't trouble yourself that a tired mechanic just worked 36 hours on your aircraft due to lack of duty regulations, and installed bogus parts under the threat from a disreputable operator who "forgot" to insure your aircraft and decided not to flight follow you....
Those who have good intentions do not hide behind closed doors, conducting their affairs in secret and excluding diversity, input and contribution from the masses.
There is no real safety unless the entire aviation industry has the same rights and protections - and achieving this requires people to work together.
Cheers,
Kirsten B.
Last edited by snoopy on Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Never interrupt someone doing something you said couldn’t be done.” Amelia Earhart
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Cat Driver
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Re: College of Pilots?
Amazing Snoop, once again you have put in it's true perspective which is the industry has to take a real close look at where all this is going and who is driving it.
Mattedfred I for one would like to hear your opinions on this and what was said by some posters that makes you so distressed.
Mattedfred I for one would like to hear your opinions on this and what was said by some posters that makes you so distressed.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: College of Pilots?
“Never interrupt someone doing something you said couldn’t be done.” Amelia Earhart
Re: College of Pilots?
In all honesty, if and I mean if Transport was looking to get out of the licensing, database management side of the equation this would be a grand opportunity and I can see them having interest.
I’ll bet the government lawyers see the licensing of pilots as a huge liability with what appears to be a shift to litigation when accidents occur its makes sense to relinquish what is essentially a technical aspect of the industry to an interested party.
Now to extend that thought, let’s assume the newly formed College of Professional Pilots achieves that goal and takes over the technical aspects of licensing does it really change anything? Not unless they decide that to “advance flight safety, professional and technical standards” through new standards they might choose to implement.
To me “advance flight safety, professional and technical standards” means make it tougher to obtain a commercial licence, ATPL etc. I think we can all agree that this group will have no power or authority to impose any changes to duty, pay, scheduling etc. They could work with the various unions in lobbing for changes to duty and scheduling…wages, well I guess they could also lobby for changes to current legislation. The operative words are “work with” and “lobby” as they will not have any powers to unilaterally change anything in those areas.
Will making it more difficult to achieve a licence or higher licence improve flight safety, professional and technical standards? Sounds good on paper but in practice who knows. Anybody know of any studies that demonstrate a relationship between increased professionalism and time in a seat? Same can probably be said for flight safety and technical standards, is there any proven relationship between increasing hours or writing additional exams and increased flight safety?
In earlier posts I poking my stick at Widow asking what this group could possibly do that employers would not be happy with, given that was her insinuation. Other than working with other organizations in lobbying for hard and fast pay scales or schedules I would expect employers to welcome tougher standards to obtain licences, it doesn’t hurt them in anyway and ultimately could prove to be a great PR gimmick.
I’ll bet the government lawyers see the licensing of pilots as a huge liability with what appears to be a shift to litigation when accidents occur its makes sense to relinquish what is essentially a technical aspect of the industry to an interested party.
Now to extend that thought, let’s assume the newly formed College of Professional Pilots achieves that goal and takes over the technical aspects of licensing does it really change anything? Not unless they decide that to “advance flight safety, professional and technical standards” through new standards they might choose to implement.
To me “advance flight safety, professional and technical standards” means make it tougher to obtain a commercial licence, ATPL etc. I think we can all agree that this group will have no power or authority to impose any changes to duty, pay, scheduling etc. They could work with the various unions in lobbing for changes to duty and scheduling…wages, well I guess they could also lobby for changes to current legislation. The operative words are “work with” and “lobby” as they will not have any powers to unilaterally change anything in those areas.
Will making it more difficult to achieve a licence or higher licence improve flight safety, professional and technical standards? Sounds good on paper but in practice who knows. Anybody know of any studies that demonstrate a relationship between increased professionalism and time in a seat? Same can probably be said for flight safety and technical standards, is there any proven relationship between increasing hours or writing additional exams and increased flight safety?
In earlier posts I poking my stick at Widow asking what this group could possibly do that employers would not be happy with, given that was her insinuation. Other than working with other organizations in lobbying for hard and fast pay scales or schedules I would expect employers to welcome tougher standards to obtain licences, it doesn’t hurt them in anyway and ultimately could prove to be a great PR gimmick.
Re: College of Pilots?
Snoopy, you noted you have an existing relationship with one of the executives, and I believe you have also received a personal invititation to make contact and find out more. Have you ever done so? As far as I can tell, nothing has yet been delegated so there is still a chance to object.
While I agree that TC messed up in delegating authority to the CBAA without ensuring the CBAA was capable or that TC themselves had adquate oversight of that authority - and that they'd started the process before even Gazetting the Amendments - I'm not quite sure how it could have happened without everyone in the Business sector being aware of it on some level.
And TC has paid a bit of a price for all that lately. Not much, and I've not a lot a faith that has or will change ... but the public outcry - unfortunately later rather than sooner - has at least slowed them down from implementing SMS in the other sectors. Hopefully, they will use this time to do a better job of it ... no outcry in the world is going to stop SMS, which most agree is a good thing if handled properly both in implementation (including respect for size and type of operation, etc.) and subsequent regulatory oversight.
So now comes the CPPC, who, according to some, are planning to do the same thing as the CBAA - except for a different sector. I'm not quite sure what is "secret" about it, since we all seem to know somthing is up. I'm also pretty sure the CBAA must have existed publically to get members in order to get themselves written into the regulations. Won't the CPPC have to have a solid membership, stakeholder approval and several years of existance before they can be "written in"? So for whatever reasons there may have been for not objecting in time to the CBAA "takeover", those reasons don't exist for anyone here who has read this thread. At least find out more before you object. Objectors, feel free to take that as a challenge.
Finally, and while I agree that every worker should be formally represented as a group to ensure their safety and professionalism, at least the CPPC is looking to represent the group that is always first at the accident scene, and usually takes the blame - rather than a group whose bottom line is necessarily the dollar.
While I agree that TC messed up in delegating authority to the CBAA without ensuring the CBAA was capable or that TC themselves had adquate oversight of that authority - and that they'd started the process before even Gazetting the Amendments - I'm not quite sure how it could have happened without everyone in the Business sector being aware of it on some level.
And TC has paid a bit of a price for all that lately. Not much, and I've not a lot a faith that has or will change ... but the public outcry - unfortunately later rather than sooner - has at least slowed them down from implementing SMS in the other sectors. Hopefully, they will use this time to do a better job of it ... no outcry in the world is going to stop SMS, which most agree is a good thing if handled properly both in implementation (including respect for size and type of operation, etc.) and subsequent regulatory oversight.
So now comes the CPPC, who, according to some, are planning to do the same thing as the CBAA - except for a different sector. I'm not quite sure what is "secret" about it, since we all seem to know somthing is up. I'm also pretty sure the CBAA must have existed publically to get members in order to get themselves written into the regulations. Won't the CPPC have to have a solid membership, stakeholder approval and several years of existance before they can be "written in"? So for whatever reasons there may have been for not objecting in time to the CBAA "takeover", those reasons don't exist for anyone here who has read this thread. At least find out more before you object. Objectors, feel free to take that as a challenge.
Finally, and while I agree that every worker should be formally represented as a group to ensure their safety and professionalism, at least the CPPC is looking to represent the group that is always first at the accident scene, and usually takes the blame - rather than a group whose bottom line is necessarily the dollar.
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
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JohnnyHotRocks
- Rank (9)
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- Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 am
Re: College of Pilots?
ya, you are right, I am new to the aviation businessDoc wrote:"can't be any worse than the status quo...."JohnnyHotRocks wrote:Typical AvCanada...
complain about working conditions, salary, lack of benefits, etc...etc..., and then when someone steps up to do something about it, shit all over them!
Let's wait and see what it brings...can't be any worse that status quo!
Spoken like a true newbe. News flash for ya.....it could ALWAYS be worse.
I'm of course, assuming you're alive?
That, and I haven't seen ANYTHING in "black and white" that would indicate an improvement in "working conditions, salary, lack of benefits, etc.....". Apparently, your have? Do share.
Or, wait and see.......worked for Europe in1939....
what's with all the Hitler analogies?
Re: College of Pilots?
Widow, having a number of conversations hardly constitutes a relationship.
"I believe you have also received a personal invititation to make contact and find out more." I recall that then, as now, you forced yourself as a conduit between the College and the doubter because you've decided from your "inside knowledge" that this organization is a good thing. Strange how this "inside knowledge" is not public knowledge, and even with your special information you cannot answer the questions posed here.
"As far as I can tell, nothing has yet been delegated so there is still a chance to object." It should not be up to me, or anyone else for that matter, to conduct an investigation into rumors of a top-secret takeover of pilot licensing in Canada. Pilot Licensing is under the purview of the Federal Government, who, under law, must go through the proper channels, including public debate (which they must announce, and not hide) before any delegation of authority can occur.
You seem to be conducting as much speculation as any of the other posters, yet I don't see any other posters inferring inside knowledge. You can speculate and infer all you like - I am waiting for published facts, and not after-the-facts.
"...at least the CPPC is looking to represent the group that is always first at the accident scene..." I'm sorry but this is a load of crap. In a safe industry there wouldn't BE a crash scene, or if there were, it would be rare. You can protect your good 'ol boy airline club all you like - I'm interested in bettering the industry as a whole. My industry includes everyone, because I as a pilot, am no more or less important than the next "guy".
So when I see open, honest behavior from a diverse group of people (and I mean diverse - hence the bold), representing all (once again...) individuals in this industry from Air Taxi to Airline, I will support them.
I better not wake up one morning and find that this secret little group has conspired with Transport Canada to become a delegated authority without first consulting me, and everyone else in this industry and obtaining our approval. I think by now Transport Canada is aware this would be very dangerous ground and will not repeat this particular mistake twice, particularly in this new climate of public scrutiny.
Cheers,
Kirsten B.
"I believe you have also received a personal invititation to make contact and find out more." I recall that then, as now, you forced yourself as a conduit between the College and the doubter because you've decided from your "inside knowledge" that this organization is a good thing. Strange how this "inside knowledge" is not public knowledge, and even with your special information you cannot answer the questions posed here.
"As far as I can tell, nothing has yet been delegated so there is still a chance to object." It should not be up to me, or anyone else for that matter, to conduct an investigation into rumors of a top-secret takeover of pilot licensing in Canada. Pilot Licensing is under the purview of the Federal Government, who, under law, must go through the proper channels, including public debate (which they must announce, and not hide) before any delegation of authority can occur.
You seem to be conducting as much speculation as any of the other posters, yet I don't see any other posters inferring inside knowledge. You can speculate and infer all you like - I am waiting for published facts, and not after-the-facts.
"...at least the CPPC is looking to represent the group that is always first at the accident scene..." I'm sorry but this is a load of crap. In a safe industry there wouldn't BE a crash scene, or if there were, it would be rare. You can protect your good 'ol boy airline club all you like - I'm interested in bettering the industry as a whole. My industry includes everyone, because I as a pilot, am no more or less important than the next "guy".
So when I see open, honest behavior from a diverse group of people (and I mean diverse - hence the bold), representing all (once again...) individuals in this industry from Air Taxi to Airline, I will support them.
I better not wake up one morning and find that this secret little group has conspired with Transport Canada to become a delegated authority without first consulting me, and everyone else in this industry and obtaining our approval. I think by now Transport Canada is aware this would be very dangerous ground and will not repeat this particular mistake twice, particularly in this new climate of public scrutiny.
Cheers,
Kirsten B.
“Never interrupt someone doing something you said couldn’t be done.” Amelia Earhart
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Cat Driver
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Re: College of Pilots?
I don't want to go to bed in case this discussion between the two Kirstens continues into the night.
My reason is because they both were involved in person in Ottawa in an effort to but the brakes on TCCA's rush into a new innovative way to oversee the industry.
Therefore watching them discuss their views on how things are progressing is very interesting.
My reason is because they both were involved in person in Ottawa in an effort to but the brakes on TCCA's rush into a new innovative way to oversee the industry.
Therefore watching them discuss their views on how things are progressing is very interesting.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: College of Pilots?
This thread is seven pages and going strong.JohnnyHotRocks wrote:what's with all the Hitler analogies?
Godwin's law wrote:As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.
Re: College of Pilots?
., you might as well go tuck yourself into bed - there is nothing to see here. It is true we both went to Ottawa but as it turns out our agendas, methods and focus are different and we have diverged. It is more important to point out that everybody must do something before any positive change in the industry will occur.
End of story. Sleep well and don't let the bed bugs bite.
Kirsten B.
End of story. Sleep well and don't let the bed bugs bite.
Kirsten B.
Last edited by snoopy on Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Never interrupt someone doing something you said couldn’t be done.” Amelia Earhart
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Cat Driver
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- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: College of Pilots?
Knowing both of you personally I find it sad you went different ways.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Dust Devil
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Re: College of Pilots?
That's all fine and good for those of us that frequent this board that we know something is up. What about the thousands of others in this industry that do not. Should they not be made aware in some official means that "something" whatever it is is taking place?Widow wrote: So now comes the CPPC, who, according to some, are planning to do the same thing as the CBAA - except for a different sector. I'm not quite sure what is "secret" about it, since we all seem to know somthing is up.
//=S=//
A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed
A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed
