Was talking to a buddy that got canned from a 705 operator as he failed a couple ppc check rides. Now he's looking for a job, has had a couple successful interviews but nothing happening afterward. Has plenty of time, great looking resume, but no-one's touching him. He's got a theory why he can't find a job...
I'll pose his theory as a question: can a prospective employer access the pass/fail rate for previous ppc rides or even TC private/commercial flight tests? Is there a score card attached to our pilot numbers somewhere?
I would assume NO as this should be considered personal info and therefore protected by law.
Thought I'd throw this question out there to everyone out there.
Can the public access your pilot career details?
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako
Can the public access your pilot career details?
It is better to be sitting on the ground wishing you were in the air than being in the air wishing you were on the ground
Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
Nope. That information is protected. It is possible to access statistical info on flight tests, but the information is completely stripped of any personally identifying marks. The only way an employer can legally get previous PPC ride info on a candidate is to ask the candidate to provide it.
Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
How many times has he failed? As much as there are privacy laws in theory, the fact is that this is a small industry and airlines do talk to each other... Regardless of how "competitive" the companies are.Biggles wrote:Was talking to a buddy that got canned from a 705 operator as he failed a couple ppc check rides. Now he's looking for a job...
Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
Having been in the position of vetting candidates, I can attest to the fact that the "references" listed in a resume were not the only checks made. As it has been already stated, it is a small industry in the grand scheme of things and it does not take long to find someone who might know of someone. For now the information at TC is confidential. In the U.S. applicants are required to sign waivers that grant prospective employers authority to research a candidates history.
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V1RotateV2
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Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
Having screened and hired candidates in the past, I can attest to that data being confidential. At least in theory.
When checking for references, the answer to the "Would you rehire this pilot?" question is usually all you need, without having to be any more specific. Still, some employers will give you a lot more information "off the record" if they feel the situation deserves it.
When checking for references, the answer to the "Would you rehire this pilot?" question is usually all you need, without having to be any more specific. Still, some employers will give you a lot more information "off the record" if they feel the situation deserves it.
Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
And in Canada it should be the same way no offense but if you fail a few maybe its time for a different career choice, I seem to recall another captian that failed a few check rides and I believe he crashed a Q400 in Buffalo. Pilots should have no right to "hide" there ride statistics behind privacy laws we should have to sign waivers here tooprop2jet wrote:Having been in the position of vetting candidates, I can attest to the fact that the "references" listed in a resume were not the only checks made. As it has been already stated, it is a small industry in the grand scheme of things and it does not take long to find someone who might know of someone. For now the information at TC is confidential. In the U.S. applicants are required to sign waivers that grant prospective employers authority to research a candidates history.
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To The Line
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Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
Can I ask the College of Physicians to provide me with my surgeons sim evals?(yes they have them) How about written exams? And any complaints that have been tendered over his/her career?
I understand that in your world flying a big airplane is much, much harder and dangerous than removing tumours from nerve bundles, cardiovascular work etc, but really, who's side are you on anyways? You sure you're a Pilot?
I understand that in your world flying a big airplane is much, much harder and dangerous than removing tumours from nerve bundles, cardiovascular work etc, but really, who's side are you on anyways? You sure you're a Pilot?
fish4life wrote:And in Canada it should be the same way no offense but if you fail a few maybe its time for a different career choice, I seem to recall another captian that failed a few check rides and I believe he crashed a Q400 in Buffalo. Pilots should have no right to "hide" there ride statistics behind privacy laws we should have to sign waivers here tooprop2jet wrote:Having been in the position of vetting candidates, I can attest to the fact that the "references" listed in a resume were not the only checks made. As it has been already stated, it is a small industry in the grand scheme of things and it does not take long to find someone who might know of someone. For now the information at TC is confidential. In the U.S. applicants are required to sign waivers that grant prospective employers authority to research a candidates history.
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To The Line
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Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
+1 I have personally overheard this happening on numerous occasions. Just be sure that no one who is remotely connected to the candidate does...Lawsuits are expensive and time consuming affairs!
V1RotateV2 wrote:Having screened and hired candidates in the past, I can attest to that data being confidential. At least in theory.
When checking for references, the answer to the "Would you rehire this pilot?" question is usually all you need, without having to be any more specific. Still, some employers will give you a lot more information "off the record" if they feel the situation deserves it.
Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
You mean like this information that is available in Ontario?To The Line wrote:Can I ask the College of Physicians to provide me with my surgeons sim evals?(yes they have them) How about written exams? And any complaints that have been tendered over his/her career?
I suppose that the College of Professional Pilots of Canada might also maintain similar records for review in the furture...Discipline & Fitness to Practise Information
Search for doctors with any outstanding allegations of professional misconduct, incompetence or incapacity, or doctors with a previous discipline or fitness to practise finding.
The College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario - All Doctors Search
Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
What if a company asks you to sign something saying that you agree to let transport Canada relaese your flight test record. Will TC then release the info?
Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
Even easier, the company can ask you to give them your rides/exams records. If you say no, no job.
Going for the deck at corner
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Joe Blow Schmo
- Rank 5
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Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
Did the interviewers not ask him why he left his previous job? Especially when he had no other job lined up. How did he answer that questions?Biggles wrote:Was talking to a buddy that got canned from a 705 operator as he failed a couple ppc check rides. Now he's looking for a job, has had a couple successful interviews but nothing happening afterward. Has plenty of time, great looking resume, but no-one's touching him. He's got a theory why he can't find a job...
I'll pose his theory as a question: can a prospective employer access the pass/fail rate for previous ppc rides or even TC private/commercial flight tests? Is there a score card attached to our pilot numbers somewhere?
I would assume NO as this should be considered personal info and therefore protected by law.
Thought I'd throw this question out there to everyone out there.
Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
Yes I am a pilot actually, and one that is proud to not "scrap by" in my training I have always taken flying seriously and study hard to make sure rides will always go smooth. I have seen too many pilots that just don't have proper situational awareness or can't handle the stress of multiple emergencies been thrown at them and it can be painful. If that is the case I wouldn't want to have my family on board of a plane with a pilot that has always "scraped by" and failed a few check rides when something went wrong, would you?
To The Line wrote:Can I ask the College of Physicians to provide me with my surgeons sim evals?(yes they have them) How about written exams? And any complaints that have been tendered over his/her career?
I understand that in your world flying a big airplane is much, much harder and dangerous than removing tumours from nerve bundles, cardiovascular work etc, but really, who's side are you on anyways? You sure you're a Pilot?
fish4life wrote:And in Canada it should be the same way no offense but if you fail a few maybe its time for a different career choice, I seem to recall another captian that failed a few check rides and I believe he crashed a Q400 in Buffalo. Pilots should have no right to "hide" there ride statistics behind privacy laws we should have to sign waivers here tooprop2jet wrote:Having been in the position of vetting candidates, I can attest to the fact that the "references" listed in a resume were not the only checks made. As it has been already stated, it is a small industry in the grand scheme of things and it does not take long to find someone who might know of someone. For now the information at TC is confidential. In the U.S. applicants are required to sign waivers that grant prospective employers authority to research a candidates history.
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ScudRunner
- Rank 11
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Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
Biggles wrote:Was talking to a buddy that got canned from a 705 operator as he failed a couple ppc check rides. Now he's looking for a job, has had a couple successful interviews but nothing happening afterward. Has plenty of time, great looking resume, but no-one's touching him.
Guess they where not that successful then.
I always like the so are these all the companies you have flown for? question, hmmm so where did you get your ATR type rating none of them operate that Aircraft?
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Gino Under
- Rank 8
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- Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:06 pm
Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
Anyone can pooch a ride on any given day.
Their are numerous reasons for an unsat performance during a checkride. Incompetance and inability are rarely singled out as the reasons. But, most of us already know that.
Anyone who can't think their way through the basic reasons why people 'fail' will automatically jump to the conclusion that the candidate who fails "simply can't fly" and "isn't the kind of pilot you want up front with your family on board". So why let individual pilot records be the basis for hiring or not hiring?
Humour me?
Why do we re-test failed candidates then if a failure means you go into the career trash can?
If the US Airways A320 crew were on a 441 check and ended up in the Hudson it would have to be assessed as UNSAT. Water is not an appropriate landing surface for a land plane.
If the crew of the United DC-10 at Sioux City happened to be on a flight test, that too would be assessed as a failure. The aircraft was destroyed on landing.
The Captain of the B777 that landed in the approach lights at Heathrow was fired and to this day is unable to find employment. If that flight had been an LPC it would likely have meant re-training during the check and re-testing during the same flight test and assessed as SAT when the aircraft landed on the runway.
Big difference in the way tests are evaluated.
Examiners/Inspectors encourage re-training and re-testing. Trainers encourage success, or should do. Failure is part of success. Part of life. Failure to perform many tasks in life to a satisfactory level is part of acquiring experience. Experience is learning. Learning is wisdom. By pointing this out I am not advocating that it is okay to sustain numerous failures during your flying career. Absolutely not. At some point you have to eliminate UNSATs because those failures along the way should produce the success that is needed for those basic reasons I've mentioned.
To those who never fail, there but for the grace of god and for no other reason. go you. To those who fail on occasion, you're the ones who know the true meaning of the success that comes from effort and what it takes to succeed after failing. So, never give up! That's the essence of flying airplanes.
If you've been around aviation with its high level of scrutiny for any length of time you will know that many a capable and competant pilot out there has dealt with both success and failure whether being checked or simply trying to complete a routine flight from A to B.
Gino Under
Their are numerous reasons for an unsat performance during a checkride. Incompetance and inability are rarely singled out as the reasons. But, most of us already know that.
Anyone who can't think their way through the basic reasons why people 'fail' will automatically jump to the conclusion that the candidate who fails "simply can't fly" and "isn't the kind of pilot you want up front with your family on board". So why let individual pilot records be the basis for hiring or not hiring?
Humour me?
Why do we re-test failed candidates then if a failure means you go into the career trash can?
If the US Airways A320 crew were on a 441 check and ended up in the Hudson it would have to be assessed as UNSAT. Water is not an appropriate landing surface for a land plane.
If the crew of the United DC-10 at Sioux City happened to be on a flight test, that too would be assessed as a failure. The aircraft was destroyed on landing.
The Captain of the B777 that landed in the approach lights at Heathrow was fired and to this day is unable to find employment. If that flight had been an LPC it would likely have meant re-training during the check and re-testing during the same flight test and assessed as SAT when the aircraft landed on the runway.
Big difference in the way tests are evaluated.
Examiners/Inspectors encourage re-training and re-testing. Trainers encourage success, or should do. Failure is part of success. Part of life. Failure to perform many tasks in life to a satisfactory level is part of acquiring experience. Experience is learning. Learning is wisdom. By pointing this out I am not advocating that it is okay to sustain numerous failures during your flying career. Absolutely not. At some point you have to eliminate UNSATs because those failures along the way should produce the success that is needed for those basic reasons I've mentioned.
To those who never fail, there but for the grace of god and for no other reason. go you. To those who fail on occasion, you're the ones who know the true meaning of the success that comes from effort and what it takes to succeed after failing. So, never give up! That's the essence of flying airplanes.
If you've been around aviation with its high level of scrutiny for any length of time you will know that many a capable and competant pilot out there has dealt with both success and failure whether being checked or simply trying to complete a routine flight from A to B.
Gino Under
"I'll tell you what's wrong with society. No one drinks from the skulls of their enemies!"
Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
its not the person that failed ONE checkride that will be the dangerous one, its the person like the guy in this post that have failed multiple check rides that I don't trust, if they are failing multiple check rides then maybe them passing the ride is partially due to good luck rather than an ability to deal with any emergency in any situation.
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Gino Under
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Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
At the end of the day, multiple failures or successive failures to any extent, clearly indicates a problem. Is the problem training? The ability to learn? Or is it a simple matter of "no can do".
It's been my experience that the very few I've come across who've struggled with checkrides was due to a greater extent on a lack of training, knowledge or adequate understanding of the regulations. In some cases it was a lack of IFR proficiency or the lack of mental organization when multi tasking under pressure. That can all be remedied.
The 90 percentile among society is anything but common. So, to expect all pilots to be in that percentile is ludicrous. At least, not as long as the human being operates machinery.
While I understand and appreciate public concern over pilots who fail checkrides, I personally don't think it's a valid screening technnique for employers or employment. Most people change over time and not just in the way they handle the pressure of checkrides. Over time, we all acquire more and more knowledge, we mature, operate different aircraft types, and operate in differing environments. Most encounter skilled instructors and reasonable check airmen along the way who smoothen or streamline the process. It all tends to create a stronger, wiser, and more capable flight crew member.
Of course, there are those who will simply never achieve the expected level of performance. But, again, that number is nowhere near what many would think. Outdated opinions of a former colleague who may have been less than stellar back in the day are hardly relevant today. So, if you haven't been around the fellow recently, why provide any employer with a personal opinion?
Unfortunately, we eat our young.
Remember, flying is mostly sitting through hours of boredom while seated in a tiny little compartment smaller than the average bathroom.
Gino Under
It's been my experience that the very few I've come across who've struggled with checkrides was due to a greater extent on a lack of training, knowledge or adequate understanding of the regulations. In some cases it was a lack of IFR proficiency or the lack of mental organization when multi tasking under pressure. That can all be remedied.
The 90 percentile among society is anything but common. So, to expect all pilots to be in that percentile is ludicrous. At least, not as long as the human being operates machinery.
While I understand and appreciate public concern over pilots who fail checkrides, I personally don't think it's a valid screening technnique for employers or employment. Most people change over time and not just in the way they handle the pressure of checkrides. Over time, we all acquire more and more knowledge, we mature, operate different aircraft types, and operate in differing environments. Most encounter skilled instructors and reasonable check airmen along the way who smoothen or streamline the process. It all tends to create a stronger, wiser, and more capable flight crew member.
Of course, there are those who will simply never achieve the expected level of performance. But, again, that number is nowhere near what many would think. Outdated opinions of a former colleague who may have been less than stellar back in the day are hardly relevant today. So, if you haven't been around the fellow recently, why provide any employer with a personal opinion?
Unfortunately, we eat our young.
Remember, flying is mostly sitting through hours of boredom while seated in a tiny little compartment smaller than the average bathroom.
Gino Under
"I'll tell you what's wrong with society. No one drinks from the skulls of their enemies!"
Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
Well said, Gino.
Perhaps I am somewhat biased toward my pal, but when I heard the 'reasons' why he failed I couldn't help but to think there was a failure in the system rather than a failure in the individual pilot. I won't get into the reasons why, however from what he told me it was purely being in the wrong place with the wrong sim partner. He was considered a 'failure' as he was 'part of a crew'. His sim partner blew it and because he was sitting in the other seat they included him in their conclusion. I've heard of other pilots with the same complaint from various companies. I even saw the reports. I can understand his resentment but also realize there are always two sides to the story. I completely understand why the company did not want to have anything to do with someone who has a tarnished record, if only for liability reasons. I think they are a bunch of douche nozzles, but I understand where they're coming from.
That being said, I know from experience he is a stand-up pilot. I have been in an real-life emergency situation with him and he performed exactly as he should; calm, collected and according to the SOP's. That's the kind of crap that you learn from messing up in the sim. There is always a positive side to making a mistake.
I feel bad for the dude. Stinky end of the stick.
Perhaps I am somewhat biased toward my pal, but when I heard the 'reasons' why he failed I couldn't help but to think there was a failure in the system rather than a failure in the individual pilot. I won't get into the reasons why, however from what he told me it was purely being in the wrong place with the wrong sim partner. He was considered a 'failure' as he was 'part of a crew'. His sim partner blew it and because he was sitting in the other seat they included him in their conclusion. I've heard of other pilots with the same complaint from various companies. I even saw the reports. I can understand his resentment but also realize there are always two sides to the story. I completely understand why the company did not want to have anything to do with someone who has a tarnished record, if only for liability reasons. I think they are a bunch of douche nozzles, but I understand where they're coming from.
That being said, I know from experience he is a stand-up pilot. I have been in an real-life emergency situation with him and he performed exactly as he should; calm, collected and according to the SOP's. That's the kind of crap that you learn from messing up in the sim. There is always a positive side to making a mistake.
I feel bad for the dude. Stinky end of the stick.
It is better to be sitting on the ground wishing you were in the air than being in the air wishing you were on the ground
Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
Biggles, my understanding is when part of a 2 crew ride if you let your partner do something that is a no-no, ie violate an air reg, limitation, or SOP. You both fail, end of story no wrong partner, wrong time. If you're the FO your job is to clearly state your objection to the course of action and the reason why. If you're the Capt you exercise your command authority state the mistake and proper course of action. If the Capt ignores or over rules the FO and is wrong it is a Capt fail and FO pass.Biggles wrote:Well said, Gino.
Perhaps I am somewhat biased toward my pal, but when I heard the 'reasons' why he failed I couldn't help but to think there was a failure in the system rather than a failure in the individual pilot. I won't get into the reasons why, however from what he told me it was purely being in the wrong place with the wrong sim partner. He was considered a 'failure' as he was 'part of a crew'. His sim partner blew it and because he was sitting in the other seat they included him in their conclusion.
If it an aircraft handling problem then only one of them should have failed the ride.
This is my understanding of the requirements, there are a few check pilots on the site maybe one would care to comment and clear up any misunderstanding.
When I was on the hiring side if I asked a candidate why they no longer worked for a company without a job to go to and the evasiveness started it would raise alarms. Likewise if I phoned for a reference and started vague responses.
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To The Line
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- Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:19 am
Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
Nice work, but....there is quite a large difference between professional misconduct, and the failure of an assesment being made public. There are no posts regarding the latter on the website you have so kindly provided.
As with all Physicians, Pilot's examinations in Canada are NOT made public to ANYONE, nor should they be. If there are any cases of professional misconduct amongst the Pilot group they are posted as CADORS and no one is exempt.
Please spend a bit more time reviewing your information before you post, and make it relevant.
By a Pilot, for Pilots!
As with all Physicians, Pilot's examinations in Canada are NOT made public to ANYONE, nor should they be. If there are any cases of professional misconduct amongst the Pilot group they are posted as CADORS and no one is exempt.
Please spend a bit more time reviewing your information before you post, and make it relevant.
By a Pilot, for Pilots!
CD wrote:You mean like this information that is available in Ontario?To The Line wrote:Can I ask the College of Physicians to provide me with my surgeons sim evals?(yes they have them) How about written exams? And any complaints that have been tendered over his/her career?I suppose that the College of Professional Pilots of Canada might also maintain similar records for review in the furture...Discipline & Fitness to Practise Information
Search for doctors with any outstanding allegations of professional misconduct, incompetence or incapacity, or doctors with a previous discipline or fitness to practise finding.
The College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario - All Doctors Search
Re: Can the public access your pilot career details?
Nice work, but... CADORS have little to do with professional misconduct and the information is only preliminary in nature. You might be thinking of the Non-corporate Offenders Enforcement Actions site. However, the names of the indivduals involved are not made public.To The Line wrote:If there are any cases of professional misconduct amongst the Pilot group they are posted as CADORS and no one is exempt...
The detailed information available to to the public on the professional misconduct of physicians is based on fact and the result of the Discipline or Fitness To Practise Committee, which is comprised of the physicians peers.
Possibly, you could spend a bit more time reviewing your information before you post next time too...
As you are a Pilot, for Pilots, you might consider volunteering for the equivalent committee if the College ever does establish standards for the profession.
