Impact of YYC no longer accepting general aviation

[HeadingAltitudeSpeed]

From what I understand, Springbank Airport functions as the primary general aviation reliever for Calgary International. Should it help ease the need for flow control? YBW does not currently have a terminal; nor does it have facilities for passengers or charter clients - are these important for Springbank to provide greater help for YYC?

Better question yet, does YYC even need relief? If it doesn't at present, do you foresee it ever being the case?

CYBW has a variety of functions. It has traditionally been primarily a base for training and general aviation. This has been slowly changing. With the increase in large carrier traffic at CYYC some smaller operator found it advantageous to base operations in CYBW. As a result the CAA began to make improvements to CYBW. The major one being extending one runway and installing a ground based instrument approach system. There are limited ground service facilities at this time. IMHO the lack of a transportation system (shuttle and car rental) will be a major limiting factor in the growth of CYBW as a commercial base of operations. Combine this with the lack of an FBO for passengers to stage from and there will little desire to use the airport consistently.

Major carriers using CYYC still operate on a hub and spoke. This means that there are spikes of extreme arrival demands. These require a smoothing effort (flow control). When delays are being encountered some aircraft do indeed utilize CYBW despite the ground limitations there. We expected this when the IFR approaches were commissioned. In anticipation we developed procedures and a system that can handle a significant amount of traffic into CYBW. To this point we have not seen those procedures taxed to the limit.

Does CYYC need relief? It is a complex question. There are a number of issues at play. Airports are a funny thing, they will almost always operate to he point of saturation. In a place like CYYC it truly is a matter of if you build it they will come. This is way major airports always seem to have some part under construction. CYBW can provide some relief if operators elect to use it.

Just to clarify. Navcanada is not the one pushing operators to CYBW. The CAA determines who can use the airport and any fees that are charged. Navcanada just provides the ATC services.

[Shiny Side Up]

IMHO the lack of a transportation system (shuttle and car rental) will be a major limiting factor in the growth of CYBW as a commercial base of operations. Combine this with the lack of an FBO for passengers to stage from and there will little desire to use the airport consistently.

It begs the question why the CAA - which manages both airports - isn't making more of a push in this direction. Why isn't there a car rental service/ shuttle service which operates from the field? For that matter why isn't there a Timmy Ho's on the field too? Pilots, coffee and donuts - be a license to print money. If we were south of the border we wouldn't be asking this question, They'd already be in place for an airport of this size.

But then, anyone who's ever dealt with how the CAA works already knows the answer to these questions.

[Posthumane]

The lack of transportation to/from springbank is definitely an issue. There aren't really any good options for private pilots flying into the city unless you have someone that can come pick you up from way outside the city (Indus, Okotoks, Airdrie, and Springbank are all a bit of a drive) or are willing to spend a chunk of change on a taxi (probably still cheaper than landing at YYC). Setting up a car rental counter, coffee shop, or an FBO with a shuttle service is up to enterprising individuals though, not the CAA, unless they are doing something to specifically prevent new businesses from going up. A Timmy's franchise is very expensive, so the demand has to be there first.

Keeping small/slow private aircraft out of YYC is probably a good thing, and student pilots even more so. I never understood why someone would want to do their ab initio there anyway. I imagine you'd spend a lot of time taxiing and waiting in line instead of flying.

The CFS says that CFX2 is PPR, a few years back when I called and spoke to the flight school (Fly Right's satellite operation (403) 938-5252) they said no issues using the field whenever desired. I had my airplane based there in 2009 until we moved in the spring and I don't know that anyone had issues with itinerant traffic

Good to know. I have actually landed there once, without asking anyone, and just hoped nobody would care. I'm glad they don't. But Okotoks doesn't have any ARCAL system, so unless you give prior notification there won't be any lights on at night. I'd hate to get there and find the field dark.

[shitdisturber]

Good to know. I have actually landed there once, without asking anyone, and just hoped nobody would care. I'm glad they don't. But Okotoks doesn't have any ARCAL system, so unless you give prior notification there won't be any lights on at night. I'd hate to get there and find the field dark.

The lights are on a timer, as long as you're arriving before midnight you won't have any problems unless there's a power failure; and it wouldn't matter if there was an ARCAL system or not under those circumstances. If you're planning to arrive later than that, or at 0dark:30 in the morning just make sure you call in advance and somebody can leave the lights on for you.

[nightguy]

Calgary is a Joke! FLOW is a bigger joke.... all I hear is "we need a new runway and we don't want tax cuts to kill it". I talked to a sector manager about a week ago and I was told to expect it to get worse. How could that be? I get that it can be busy but my god how could it get this bad so fast. Less than a year ago FLOW was very very rare. Now its everyday.... sorry guys the airport is not that busy. To me the real story is how the charters and airlines are being affected with this. Really who cares how a flight school has to relocate to a smaller airport close by? Calgary is getting to be a big city... (not as fast as the airport would have us believe) but its still growing. As such now is the time to make it more like Toronto. No flight schools. That is what springbank is there for. Yes I know there is a few Kingairs and and Citations out there but by far its mostly the 100 dollar hamburger guys. If there are lineups for takeoff ... well that's a good thing. Teach students how to deal with being busy while they are with other aircraft in the same class.

[PanEuropean]

The lack of transportation to/from springbank is definitely an issue. There aren't really any good options for private pilots flying into the city...

Wait a minute, I think you might have misread what the issue being discussed is. Private pilots are welcome to use Calgary International, the only group restricted from using Calgary International is student pilots (those who have not yet earned a licence).

Michael

[Shiny Side Up]

Private pilots are welcome to use Calgary International

The steep landing fee is hardly welcoming, no are the hefty fees for even taxiing across the FBO's ramps - The Aeroshell wanted to charge me $35 just to momentarily stop and pick up a passenger once.

Setting up a car rental counter, coffee shop, or an FBO with a shuttle service is up to enterprising individuals though, not the CAA, unless they are doing something to specifically prevent new businesses from going up.

The CAA as far I've seen is also doing nothing to encourage it. As of yet the CAA has but one method they use for making money and that's increasing fees. The concept of increasing volume of business to increase revenue is alien to them. Now I'm aware that they aren't a hundred percent to blame, but I'm not going to get into the debate about the airport rents. The point is they could be doing the job a whole lot better.

[Kgilb496]

The steep landing fee is hardly welcoming, no are the hefty fees for even taxiing across the FBO's ramps - The Aeroshell wanted to charge me $35 just to momentarily stop and pick up a passenger once.

Forgive my lack of knowledge here - the CAA has yet to return my last phone call - where do these landing fees go? Who decides what airport takes what dollar amount, and where the appropriate dollar amounts go?

[Shiny Side Up]

I'm sure there's a lot of people who'd like to know where exactly that money goes.

[PanEuropean]

The steep landing fee is hardly welcoming...

The landing fees appear to be pretty reasonable to me - they range from $45 (the minimum fee) for a plane of 10,000 kg or less to about $3,000 for a Boeing 777, those are pretty reasonable fees, in fact downright cheap fees, when compared to other airports in the world of similar size. Here's a link to the current list of landing fees: The Calgary Airport Authority -TARIFF OF AVIATION FEES.

Let's be practical here: What possible benefit does landing at CYYC offer to a small recreational aircraft? If you want to drop someone off to catch a commercial flight, $45 compares favourably with the cost of a taxi ride to the airport, or to the gross operating costs of driving someone from the nearest small airport to CYYC. If you want to drop someone off to catch a private flight (at the south end), you and they shouldn't be too concerned about the $45 fee.

On the other hand, if you just want to land at CYYC to have a coffee at a FBO, then sure, it's expensive. But, the coffee is probably better at a small town strip like Linden (a bit further north), and you can get home-made pie if you land at Linden. Or, you can join the Calgary Ultralight Flying Club and then use the various private strips owned or operated by the members. That's what I do when I want to conduct training originating out of CYYC, and I usually fly a 12,500 pound plane, not a two-seater.

Forgive my lack of knowledge here ... where do these landing fees go?

I don't know for sure, but I am going to guess the fees are used for the following:

- cutting the grass
- plowing snow, sweeping the runways and taxiways
- changing light bulbs
- maintaining the runways, taxiways, drainage system, and fences around the airport
- paying the electrical bills
- etc.

Basically, the same costs that arise when operating any airport.

Michael

[iflyforpie]

Oh dear god no! Definitely NOT Fly Right's satellite! That would mean she'd be hanging around and nobody wants that! .

[MUSKEG]

Shinny side. We have become a user fee society. The reason FBO's have user fee's is because almost all people now hunt for the lowest possible fuel price, then go to a bigger place and expect to use facilities and not purchase fuel. In this case I gather your passenger made themself at home in their facility. Maybe had a free coffee, used the washroom, and then you show up and expect to just run off with the pax that has now cost said company money. (Agreed not much). But FBO's are in business to make money and the ability to give stuff away is no longer an option. The days of I'll scratch your back you scratch mine are long gone because only one person was scratching. That's just the way it is.

[Kgilb496]

The CAA as far I've seen is also doing nothing to encourage it. As of yet the CAA has but one method they use for making money and that's increasing fees. The concept of increasing volume of business to increase revenue is alien to them. Now I'm aware that they aren't a hundred percent to blame, but I'm not going to get into the debate about the airport rents. The point is they could be doing the job a whole lot better.

Is it the CAA's responsibility to attract and encourage growth, especially at CYBW?
If and FBO is to set up shop at CYBW, is it feasible that they do so with how the airport is currently set up - ie// down delta, which to my understanding is only one way?

The complexity of this seems baffling.

[Lowjack]

Keeping small/slow private aircraft out of YYC is probably a good thing, and student pilots even more so. I never understood why someone would want to do their ab initio there anyway. I imagine you'd spend a lot of time taxiing and waiting in line instead of flying.

I did ALL of my training (PPL, CPL, Night, Multi-engine, IFR) at YYC back in 1999-2002. I'd say it was actually quicker to get airborne from YYC than YBW on the busy days. Depending on the winds ATC could get us off on 25/07 or give us an immediate on 34/16 with a quick turn out to help them.

I really enjoyed learning at YYC. Felt like it made me pretty sharp on the radios a lot quicker, and learning to work with ATC by giving them tight base legs, high speed approaches and LAHSO clearances on a daily basis.

As for long taxis, very rarely did we have to land on 10 and taxi all the way back to the SE corner of the field. Usually you could get a high speed approach onto 16 and float her almost all the way to the end before touching down and exiting.

[Shiny Side Up]

Well aware of how things have become. I would contend though that some of the user fees are designed more to turn business of some sorts away rather than recoup costs. Been round and round discussing these things with people at my home field, and running a fueling service myself. There becomes a point where the market can't bear the cost of what one might want in return for the service. The idea that the minimum cost of $45 for an airplane below 10,000lbs says one of two things 1) you think that sector of customer should chunk in more for their use of the facility or 2) you want to discourage that sector of customer. The same could be said of the FBO - why is my one or two customers having to bear the same cost as a business that has say 8-10 customers?

[Shiny Side Up]

Is it the CAA's responsibility to attract and encourage growth, especially at CYBW?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Airports need money to run. You need to generate reliable revenue streams to get that money. Is it also not their responsibility to improve service at these airports? Improving service also requires money. It is a bit complex since they run both facilities, with improving one facility also improves the other. For example if you want to ease the traffic load at YYC, then you make YBW more attractive to fly into for a certain sector of customers. More customers equals more revenue.

If its not their responsibility then whose is it?

[cyeg66]

A little off topic, maybe, but anyway you look at it, things are better now than when all fell under the Transport umbrella of operations. Airports are gradually being improved, air traffic services are far more transparent (far less stuff swept under lumpy rugs...), and costs are being contained and are far less wasteful than when big brother was doing it. It's called accountability, and we all know the government has never been good at that.... (think Human Resources, uh, I mean Service Canada). South of the border, they still believe in that archaic system, but it probably won't last.

[cyeg66]

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.edited. Double post.

[Posthumane]

PanEuropean - I realize that private aircraft are not banned from YYC, but they are discouraged. As Shiny Side Up said, this is done through enforcement of the minimum $50 landing fee (upped for 2010 from $45). That cost may be comparable to the taxi ride from the various airports near the city, but that was kind of my point. There is no cheap way to fly into Calgary. You can either pay the landing fee (and parking, FBO fees, etc) at YYC and then rent a car or take public transit from the airport, or you can fly into Springbank, Okotoks, Airdrie, Indus, etc. and try to get a taxi out there. I realize that Calgary is not the only place where private pilots have no way to get into town, in fact this is the case with most small airports attached to small towns in Alberta, but Calgary is a big enough city that it should be accessible for GA pilots. I guess the expense of ground transport is something you have to get used to with GA, but it doesn't help encourage it. Medicine Hat, for example, has far less movements per year than springbank (speculating, of course) but it has a terminal, cheap parking, no landing fees, fuel, public transit, and car rental on site.

So how can the CAA encourage growth at YBW? Reduced lease cost for new businesses? Encourage the city to run a bus line out there (unlikely)?

[PanEuropean]

Hi Posthumane:

I don't think that Calgary is different from any other large city in the world so far as the relationship between landing fees at the primary (airline) airport vs. landing fees at the smaller peripheral GA airports are concerned.

If you fly into Calgary - or Toronto, or Vancouver, or Zurich, or Seattle (the list could go on forever), you pretty much have a choice of paying a fee to land and park at the 'big' airport, or landing and (often) parking free at the smaller GA airports.

As for providing bus service at Calgary Springbank, that proposal sounds a bit incongruent to me - the idea that someone would fly into Calgary in their own plane, then take a municipal bus to get to their final destination. I am going to guess that there are car rental agencies at Springbank, and renting a car would enable the pilot and passengers of the GA aircraft to complete the land portion of their trip to the city. The cost of the car rental is probably about the same as the cost of the CYYC landing and parking fee, so it's all 'mox nix'.

Michael

[Lurch]

I have to post a few corrections:

There are Car rentals out of YBW, Budget.

The Flight school in Okotoks is Sky Wings, Not FR.

There are more then a few "NON" flight school flights in and out of YBW, so yes taxi waits are a problem

Lurch

[Lurch]

The issues with YBW is the CAA and lack of management foresight.

They widened "A" just to cut up it up to put the taxi lights right back to the same width as before.

The Hangar layout is horrible so they have to make all taxiways south of "C" uncontrolled.

They just re-paved "C" that added a 6" lip, to correct this they put down soil but didn't pack it down so any plane that taxi's off the side will sink and be unable to get out.

Customs is only open until 1700 during the winter, forcing all foreign arrivals to either clear in YQL or be forced into YYC

There is a Fire Station on the field, which the Tower cannot dispatch. The tower has to call 911 if emergency equipment is required. This has caused serious delays in the past.

The leases clearly state that hangars are for aircraft but this is not enforced causing many hangars to be filled with nothing but cars, I've counted 18 in just one hangar, one bank of 8 hangars only has planes in 3 of them.

The Run-up bays at all but one runway aren't wide or deep enough so as soon as there are 2 172s in them the taxiway becomes impassable, delaying departures while we wait for the 3 page flight school run-up checks.

I have only one complaint with ATC, there are times when they won't extend the constant circuit pattern to enable others to depart, and we have to wait for 6 172s to do their Touch and Go's.

Lurch

[Shiny Side Up]

As for providing bus service at Calgary Springbank, that proposal sounds a bit incongruent to me - the idea that someone would fly into Calgary in their own plane, then take a municipal bus to get to their final destination.

Actually this mis-reads a majority of the pilot population. Pilots are some of the cheapest bunch around and would take advantage of such a bus service if it was reasonably priced. The other point is the huge ammount of student pilots in some sort of commercial program out there who would also take advantage of such a service, never mind the people who work there. Does anyone really think that any of the starving instructors out there can afford to live in the Springbank area? Have you seen how many old beater cars are in the public parking lot there on any given day?

[TreeBlender]

I have only one complaint with ATC, there are times when they won't extend the constant circuit pattern to enable others to depart, and we have to wait for 6 172s to do their Touch and Go's.
Lurch

Sorry but this is laughable. You think it's as simple as extending someone on the downwind to get someone out? Sometimes there are 6 planes in trail on final before someone moves up to the hold line and you think that ATC should have predicted when they'd finish their run-up and have a hole waiting for them?

Instead of blaming ATC for your rare and minor delays, why not look around and see the big picture. Why are all the schools trying to get airborne at the same time? Or better yet, why is the instructor at the front of the line with 4 aircraft ready to go behind them, asking for a short delay or rolling start?

This baffels me! I have flown out of several other fields and aside from the odd request for a delay in position, when there is no apparent traffic, I have never seen ATC having to deal with this elsewhere. I had never heard of requiring a rolling start before CYBW. If you are teaching the student specialized take offs, short field and soft field take offs, set your flaps, call ready for take off and see what you get. If tower tells you to line up and wait (because there is a full stop rolling out ahead) then line up quickly, set the power and get ready for a short field. If they tell you cleared for take off, then do a soft field rolling start. Better yet, go to a grass strip and actually do a day of learning soft field take-offs, it'll probably be your instructors first time actually doing it. While you're there, you can practice short field.

To insist on a rolling start or short delay is complete ignorance and drives everyone else in line crazy. Now when tower has a hole big enough to get you out, they can't and everyone behind you suffers. So next time you're in line waiting to go, don't blame ATC for not "extending the downwind," pay attention as to what is really causing the delay and ask your company instructor why they insisted on a rolling start or delay in position with 4 guys waiting behind them.

[FlaplessDork]

Why are all the schools trying to get airborne at the same time?

When I worked there, I moved all our bookings to odd hours when everyone else booked on the even hours, and never had any traffic problems in the circuit. But I would have to say it is often a nightmare to get out at times at CYBW. Another problem was a certain school's tendency to teach 2 mile circuits by following certain land features or roads. I always laughed when I asked for a simulated engine failure to get in ahead of them, or when they tried one and came up short. Fly the circuit like the engine is going to quit and you'll see more movements a day and less delays.