New TA reached!

[yycguy]

If ACPA is concerned about Jazz and their '57 qualified pilots, they should be even more concerned about Sky Regional who apparently also has a few '57 qualified pilots in their midst, plus a management with even more experience in operating an Airbus/Boeing fleet than Jazz.

There is a good reason ACPA spent some negotiating capital in protecting the Tier II flying, because it's easier to watch Jazz's WAWCON being raised while their flying is capped, than to see a handful of low cost, non-unionized, start-ups threaten their own flying.

If in a few years there are two or three Tier II carriers, then the next contract will be open season on ACPA's domestic flying and also on the LCC flying internationally if it comes to fruition.

I applaud the ACPA pilot membership in defeating this TA before it even got to the vote. You are demonstrating the need for a NC that can see the big picture. From all of us in the industry, good luck.

[200Above]

For those, like me, who are trying to digest all of these posts... a simplified explanation of Defined Benifit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension can be found here: http://www.milliondollarjourney.com/def ... ension.htm

I know there's more to the arguments than just the pension, but this helped clear up the mud.

[teacher]

There is going to be a second tier 2 CPA company for a couple of reasons;

1.) Last year the Jazz pilot's voted 98% in favour of a strike! The company realized that if this happened there would have been a huge operational impact. The big hammer you guys swung both helped you and hurt you - you got a good contract but also created the impetus to diversify the flying.

2.) The CPA cost is higher than they could get elsewhere.

3.) The ACPA guys have realized that the structure of the scope clause in their contract has resulted in ACPA protecting the Jazz pilots from economic competition at a cost to themselves!

Now, I don't wish a lower wage on the Jazz pilots but don't you see that everyone else in the industry faces economic pressure - except Jazz. If the price of fuel goes up, does it affect Jazz'es bottom line? If the GTAA charges more for a gate - does Jazz see an impact? Does Jazz management ever say, "we can't give you a raise because our NavCanada fees have gone up? No, no and no.

I know you guys didn't set it up this way yourselves but you have been operating in a bubble - it's an aberration that's going to change.

1) Yes we voted to strike to raise the bar for all pilots at Jazz and nation wide as we're all compared to each other, we took the chance we stood our ground and got a better contract.

2) Yes, the CPA with Jazz can be found other places cheaper but there's more to a CPA than cost. Reliability of service and the experience Jazz brings will not be easily matched. As far as ACPA should be concerned lowering CPA cost will only 1) Lower the bar to which AC pilot paid is compared and 2) Open up the possibility of contracting out more than just small market regional flying to other carriers.

3) Thinking that saving money on the CPA and the 9% of flying that it entails is a pipe dream fed to you by a crafty CEO. The money saved will NOT go into the employee pockets. Thinking otherwise makes you CRs joke of the day.

[IronMan]

Gentle Giant

If you think that AC will be giving ACPA Pilots more in WAWCON based on Jazz pilot wages your seriously miguided, or incredibly naieve. What will happen, I can gaurentee you, is that the less the Pilots make (Jazz/SkyRegional/Georgian etc.) which support your WAWCON at the top of the piloting profession pyramid, and the bigger the gap between the two groups, the easier and quicker the erosion of your WAWCON becomes for the Company. Just as Jazz Pilots have to be mindful of where the upper and lower bars are for the work they perform, so must ACPA Pilots.

Also, it would be far more palatable for any companyto have those pilots NOT at AC to fly bigger equipment for their current WAWCON, vs. ACPA Pilots flying smaller equipment for THEIR current WAWCON. So does it make sense for ACPA to erode what supports them? No, and hopefully the Pilots within APCA will seek new direction not only with the TA and the current negots, but with respect to their position in the industery as well.

Look, there's only one pocket. If the Jazz CPA costs more than it needs to that means there's less left in the pocket. Your argument regarding wage erosion makes no sense - I could just as easily claim that you should support higher wages at the mainline so that it pulls your wage up. Do you agree? No? Of course the company would rather transfer jobs down to lower wage employees, do you think this is a good thing? Transfer jobs down to tier 2 and stop hiring at the mainline, this is good?

I absolutely agree with your statement! The more Pilots make at AC, and the better the terms and benefits of their CA, the more opportunity for improvement at ALL levels of work in the industry. It's rediculous to even try to argue that anyone who isn't at AC would want anything but an industry leading CA at AC. Fact is, the better the CA at Jazz, the easier for you to justify improvements to the WAWCON for the SJ and NB work to AC. Well, that holds true until SkyRegional, as the company will now take the position that Tier II WAWCON are deteriorating, thus your floor begins to crumble. And it's self inflicted on ACPAs part, which just boggles the mind.

[dream_big]

3.) The ACPA guys have realized that the structure of the scope clause in their contract has resulted in ACPA protecting the Jazz pilots from economic competition at a cost to themselves!

How is this a cost to yourself? The percentage that is paid to jazz is NOT the reason why your having issues with your TA. Jazz does flying FOR YOU. the passengers they fly around, PAY YOU, and most will connect further on bringing more seats. It's astonishing really. Simply put, Jazz is a VERY valuable part right now(hence right now) to AC, and AC would probably go bankrupt if jazz didn't exist tomorrow. so why the heck wouldn't you want to keep it protected from failure? Oh yea right, makes the acpa boys jealous and thinks we are robbing them of money! no you know who's robbing you of money, the people who are convincing you jazz is the problem! like wake up! Why are they so focused on jazz, maybe they should focus on westjet who is ACTUALLY the competition you should be worried about.

my mistakes. and p.s. it's not the first time seeing this, thank you. Merely, stating it's getting worse and worse over the years.

[dream_big]

It's serious such a messed up point, as to what is being focused on! Jazz is too expensive LETS FIND SOMEONE CHEAPER!!!


Well here is an idea that will save you more money
- have your rampies ready so airplanes dont spend 20 minutes waiting for gates burning fuel and misconnects
- why pay groomers to clean airbus's and smaller when flight crews can get off their rumps and do it themselves!
- maybe keep less types in your fleet to save on costs
- status pay for similar types to save training costs
- keep your employees happy so you don't have them making pissy comments to passengers who are just trying to get to their destination!

just a thought, but no lets just find a cheaper CPA, it's easier!

[yyz monkey]

Well here is an idea that will save you more money
- have your rampies ready so airplanes dont spend 20 minutes waiting for gates burning fuel and misconnects

That would require the company to build up the current roster of rampies to a proper level, instead of the bare minimum approach they employ now. We're very much understaffed here on the ramp (I can only speak for YYZ of course, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was a system-wide phenomenon), and hate seeing planes hanging just as much as you do.

As well, manpower planning could be doing a better job. There is almost never any time allotted between flights in case of things going TU and flights going late - we barely get enough time to round up equipment for a flight most of the time.

[The Hammer]

Regarding the percieved Jazz CPA problem

How would you ever expect to get a better TA by using Porter/Sky regional WAWCON as comparison or negotiating point? Would the 1996 Westjet WAWCON improve your negotiation firepower too? Using your pre-RJ AC renumeration package probably would though .

I know Jazz reserve rules make AC's reserve rules look like a form of slavery......oh wait, never mind, reserve is for junior people, they don't count at the ACPA MEC.

Regardless of what your boss tells you lowering Tier 2 pilot WAWCON will not put a dime in your pocket.

Maybe ACPA could regain the small jet flying by agreeing to staff it with all new hires/new hire renumeration with a DC pension ie if you want to fly the small jets you only get DC pension contributions.

Personally I hope ACPA sells out the next generation of new hires (DC pension/ 4 year pay group) and makes the decision even harder for these pilots to financially make the transition from the good paying, stable employment in a modern turboprop/jet in a +250,000 city that I offer them to 4 years of hardship living/commuting to YYZ/YVR/YUL. I know for myself the DB pension was a huge factor (I had a DC plan at my old job) went I made the decision to go to Jazz.

"Excellent...............Smithers, release the hounds"

[Gentle Giant]

How is this a cost to yourself? The percentage that is paid to jazz is NOT the reason why your having issues with your TA. Jazz does flying FOR YOU. the passengers they fly around, PAY YOU, and most will connect further on bringing more seats. It's astonishing really. Simply put, Jazz is a VERY valuable part right now(hence right now) to AC, and AC would probably go bankrupt if jazz didn't exist tomorrow. so why the heck wouldn't you want to keep it protected from failure? Oh yea right, makes the acpa boys jealous and thinks we are robbing them of money! no you know who's robbing you of money, the people who are convincing you jazz is the problem! like wake up! Why are they so focused on jazz, maybe they should focus on westjet who is ACTUALLY the competition you should be worried about.

my mistakes. and p.s. it's not the first time seeing this, thank you. Merely, stating it's getting worse and worse over the years.

Look, I thought I'd explained this but obviously I haven't done a very good job of it - I'll try again.

1.) This is not the main point I'm trying to make but, first of all, there is only one pocket; if Air Canada pays above market rate for anything: office supplies, catering or CPA flying it affects the rest of the company, and me. Don't try to claim that if we overpay Jazz that it has no affect on the Air Canada pilots. We may not be able to talk the company into giving the difference to the pilots but it still has an affect, even if slight.

2.) I am not arguing against the wages that Jazz pilots get paid. I wish that we could all get paid more. What I am saying is that Jazz has been insulated from the economic forces that rule the lives of other airline employees, like me. My company wants to get us to work for less money because "the competition works for less money." The Jazz pilots, OTOH, don't have competition. You enjoy a monopoly, and why is that? It's because the ACPA contract specifies that Jazz is the only source for tier 2. That's so important that I'm going to say it again; the ACPA contract makes Jazz the sole source for tier 2 and insulates the Jazz pilots from outside economic forces. Why should you alone in the whole industry be protected in this way and, more to the point, why should the ACPA pilot group do this for you?

3.) Cost. Every item in our contract has a "cost". We negotiated the scope clause and naming of Jazz as the sole tier 2 source with the intent that this would prevent the company from giving away flying that was traditionally done by ACPA but the effect was as described in point 2, above. So, if the company wants to spread out the tier 2 flying to another company, there may be an opportunity to see gains in some other part of the contract in exchange for relaxing that part of the scope clause. I can't tell you what the end result will be, or if this is a good idea - I have no clue. If it comes down to deciding if I should accept something that benefits me or do something that effectively protects your wage - which should I pick? Did you do anything in your last contract negotiations to make my job better? I understand the concept that paying more at the tier 2 level makes the argument for higher pay at the mainline easier and I've heard, or made myself, the argument that higher pay at the mainline pulls tier 2 payrates up. Which is correct, I have no clue, could argue it either way.

If Skyregional starts up and offers lower CPA rates to AC I expect Jazz will try to get it's pilots to work for less due to the competition, very much like AC is trying to get me to work for less. It may take years for this to happen but you will not like it when it does happen just as I don't like it now.

[mbav8r]

If Skyregional starts up and offers lower CPA rates to AC I expect Jazz will try to get it's pilots to work for less due to the competition, very much like AC is trying to get me to work for less. It may take years for this to happen but you will not like this, I don't like it either.

Gentle Giant, you don't like it, but your willing to sell out future pilots, for a small gain now. Is my understanding correct? Remember Jazz used to be a wholly owned subsidiary of Air Canada, so it was okay to sheild Jazz from market forces then, but not now. So I guess we know were you stand on AVEOS sending work to El Salvador, as long as it saves Air Canada money, it's okay to chop up the company and sell off the pieces, by offering lucrative contracts, then once the dust settles, let the cheapest provider prevail.
I guess all the mainline pilots who go to the LCC, should be okay with one day down the road, no longer affording the protection of being the " The pilot, pilots want to be". When Air Canada sells that too, they'll be a seperate company, won't be long before the rhetoric starts after that. Why should they have C2 passes, why should we support their wages, screw em they should've known better than to bid on that flying.

[Gentle Giant]

Gentle Giant, you don't like it, but your willing to sell out future pilots, for a small gain now. Is my understanding correct? Remember Jazz used to be a wholly owned subsidiary of Air Canada, so it was okay to sheild Jazz from market forces then, but not now. So I guess we know were you stand on AVEOS sending work to El Salvador, as long as it saves Air Canada money, it's okay to chop up the company and sell off the pieces, by offering lucrative contracts, then once the dust settles, let the cheapest provider prevail.
I guess all the mainline pilots who go to the LCC, should be okay with one day down the road, no longer affording the protection of being the " The pilot, pilots want to be". When Air Canada sells that too, they'll be a seperate company, won't be long before the rhetoric starts after that. Why should they have C2 passes, why should we support their wages, screw em they should've known better than to bid on that flying.

Hey, I'm not the bad guy. It wasn't my idea to sell Jazz or create Aveos, or sell Aeroplan. I think all of those things are bad for the workers and the country. Why don't you tell me what the solution is - the company wants to set up a LCC and start Skyregional - so what should ACPA do? We have protested loudly, started recall proceedings against the MEC, are trying to get the negotiating committee to either resign or get them turfed - what other advice can you offer?

I'm doing my best to make this job/keep this job the best possible so if you have some superior wisdom as to how to do that - don't hold back, let's have it.

[teacher]

the ACPA contract makes Jazz the sole source for tier 2 and insulates the Jazz pilots from outside economic forces. Why should you alone in the whole industry be protected in this way and, more to the point, why should the ACPA pilot group do this for you?

I'm not calling you the bad guy "GG". We live in the reality that we live in.

And there in lies many Jazz posters' point on this board. Why should we than not bid "your flying"? Why should we than, if we can provide the service at a better cost to AC, not do the domestic narrow body flying? Will this not increase the money in the "collective pocket"?

Why should we than not compete and go after what you percieve as your jobs when ours are being used as bargaining capital?

You can clearly see the cost of having division over unity? This is exactly what AC managment want and ACPA is playing right into CRs hands.

[Gentle Giant]

Teacher;

I'm just going to throw it right back to you - what's your advice? How should we address this threat from the company? It's all very nice to talk about "unity" but give me some hard opinion because everything else is just platitudes.

[mbav8r]

How about a 98% strike vote, followed by attempting to make gains from your managements bonus or their indexed DB plan. When we were told there was no money, we answered by telling them to reduce the dividend. You're on the right track toward being a united group but you need to direct your anger toward the appropriate group, your management. Rally the troops, get out as much information as you can about executive pay, plaster it all over the crew rooms, there's nothing like, the slap in the face of their pay, to bring a group together.

[Gentle Giant]

How about a 98% strike vote, followed by attempting to make gains from your managements bonus or their indexed DB plan. When we were told there was no money, we answered by telling them to reduce the dividend. You're on the right track toward being a united group but you need to direct your anger toward the appropriate group, your management. Rally the troops, get out as much information as you can about executive pay, plaster it all over the crew rooms, there's nothing like, the slap in the face of their pay, to bring a group together.

Oh there's plenty of anger toward management but the difference is that we don't have a dividend to point at. The CPA "guarantees" that there will be a profit at Jazz so I think it might be just a little easier for the Jazz pilots.

[mbav8r]

Agreed, but you do have 80% increase in pay to point to, tell them to walk the walk or "FOXTROT OSCAR"
We had a big club in our hands and AC wants to take that away from us, with your help. We raised the bar, which gives you a higher point to start from, so if you want to take the floor out from under us, just remember where your standing when that floor collapses. You'll come down with the rest of us.
Short term gain, for long term pain

By the way, C.R's 5,000,000 rentention bonus is equivalant to about 1700.00 per pilot or 100,000,000.00(2010 profit)is a 35,000.00 raise for each pilot. Now you don't want to seem greedy, so don't ask for all of it, but demand some of it.

[teacher]

"mbav8r" hit the nail on the head. Take a page out of ALPAs book. Get the word out, hold pubnights, family awareness days. Anger in the crewroom and the cockpit accomplishes nothing. Go after the inequities within your company like "mba" and everyone else has pointed out, million dollar bonuses handed out to executives while front line workers are presented with concessionary contracts. During our negotiations our mangement handed us their first offer of paycuts and we threw it back at them along with a 99% strike vote.

When's your strike vote? As far as CR's concerned it seems like you guys (ACPA) are ready to be buddies. Get the mandate to strike, take the hammer to negotiations, sit down at the table, place it in front of you and than start talking.

[Gentle Giant]

Teacher; Do you really think that having a pubnight got you the raise?

mbav8r; You think you raised the bar?

You're both delusional. The Jazz pilots got a raise because the CPA GUARANTEES THAT JAZZ WILL MAKE A PROFIT!!! and because the ACPA negotiated contract specified Jazz as the SOLE SUPPLIER FOR TIER 2. You're living in a bubble wearing rose-coloured glasses with your heads up your rears if you can't see that. Take a look at what the rest of the industry is facing; escalating fuel costs, rising airport fees, increasing Nav fees, extremely challenging revenue management, low-cost competition. How has Jazz dealt with all these issues - it hasn't because AC covers the whole bunch and guarantees a profit on top. Pretty easy to "achieve" a raise in that situation.

[yycguy]

"mbav8r" hit the nail on the head. Take a page out of ALPAs book. Get the word out, hold pubnights, family awareness days.

I saw this quote and couldn't agree more. The Pubnights are actually "Pilot Unity Building" nights (which happen to occur at local drinking establishments across the country). With members of the MEC and the NC in attendance to answer questions.

I cannot imagine how big a difference this might make to bring together a divided group. ALPA provided Jazz with 5 million dollars that were primarily spent on Pilot unification. Creating a Pilot2Pilot network to stop rumors from spreading and provide a direct line from the average pilot to the NC, having Family Awareness days at parks and entertainment centers so Jazz Pilots could have their spouses and families understand the importance of the negotiations, and the PUB nights too. From my perspective it created a sense of unity that lead to the 98% strike vote, and a Negotiating Committee that spoke with one voice.

[mbav8r]

Gentle Giant, with all due respect, you need to forget about our CPA arrangement, but if you think we're aren't affected by market forces, I'll refer you to the 50 million a year that were negotiated back to mainline from our CPA.
If you think that introducing a race to the bottom type of industry, will net you anything, I submit you're the DELUSIONAL one. It will simply line the pockets of the executives.
We have a CPA because it was and is cheaper for us to do the work, that we are doing, regardless of what the CPA pays. It's a cost plus margin, but don't forget, we have to use your Baggage handlers at 90% of the bases we go to, we pay that, but I bet we get a good deal on that(insert sarcasm). We could do it cheaper with our own staff. We also lease the old, I mean old 100s from AC and with every Q400 we bring on, a crj200 goes back. That was confirmed by a management type recently. So instead of keeping lower time, reliable 200s, we keep on leasing your old junk. I wonder what the lease rate is on those? Probably below industry standard right?????????
Lastly, by raising the bar, I meant our year 1 wage is, 39,600 vs your 37,300, our year 2 44,300 vs your 42,400. You're Welcome

[rudder]

Focusing on the existing Jazz CPA is a waste of time and a distraction. Jazz has a CPA with AC until 2020 under fixed terms. These terms are less generous than those that were contined in CPAv1.0 post-CCAA. There is NO exclusivity provision in the CPA. AC can ratchet Jazz down to approximately 340,000 annualised block hours, but the reduction below 375,000 comes with a poison pill for AC on the effective margin rate. Lower hours mean lower daily utilisation rates on aircraft that AC is obliged to make principal lease payments on.

There is a much bigger picture than the Jazz CPA when it comes to AC's Tier 2 strategy. Do they even have one? The majority of the fleet being operated by Jazz on behalf of AC is in serious need of renewal due to age/cycles. If AC tries to expand or replicate the SKY deal with more new partners, they will find themselves on the hook for either the purchase or primary lease obligations on the hundreds of millions of dollars that will need to be spent to bring the tier 2 fleet up to a modern standard. Does AC have the balance sheet room to do that? No.

Very, very few tier 2 operators can afford to finance the fleet renewal that AC requires to keep pace with the Porter or WJ presence in secondary markets. Jazz is one of them. So go ahead and piss down Jazz's back and perhaps Jazz will elect to spend their capital dollars elsewhere.

[dream_big]

the ACPA contract makes Jazz the sole source for tier 2 and insulates the Jazz pilots from outside economic forces. Why should you alone in the whole industry be protected in this way and, more to the point, why should the ACPA pilot group do this for you?

yea ok fair enough, but at the same time, if AC wants it so any company can come and compete against Jazz well then sure as hell should be that jazz can go to ANY company and do CPA flying for ANYONE else. I mean we aren't protected anymore so we should the clause remain in the CPA agreement that we are restricted! Funny how things work both ways right. Let's see, anyone know the number for westjet CEO. Maybe they'd be interested in some of our services! It's fair right since we should face the economic pressures! Hey, you never know, maybe come 2020 jazz might take their CPA company elsewhere!

I get your point giant dude but seriously ACPA is very hypocritical . You can't sit here and give jazz shit saying they're protected and anyone should be able to compete against jazz and then at the same time make a fit like a 2 year old when jazz goes and does flying for Thomas Cook. You better believe that with this uncertainty of the CPA, jazz will do anything to obtain MORE flying from WHEREVER they can. And when these days come, you know who you can thank for that happening!

[dream_big]

You're both delusional. The Jazz pilots got a raise because the CPA GUARANTEES THAT JAZZ WILL MAKE A PROFIT!!! and because the ACPA negotiated contract specified Jazz as the SOLE SUPPLIER FOR TIER 2. You're living in a bubble wearing rose-coloured glasses with your heads up your rears if you can't see that. Take a look at what the rest of the industry is facing; escalating fuel costs, rising airport fees, increasing Nav fees, extremely challenging revenue management, low-cost competition. How has Jazz dealt with all these issues - it hasn't because AC covers the whole bunch and guarantees a profit on top. Pretty easy to "achieve" a raise in that situation.

Absolutely NOT! You my good man, are completely underestimating the power of a unified work group! Yes your company is wanting to throw concessions at you, but I think if ACPA was able to pull through with a 99% strike vote, things would change quite a bit. You are forgetting just how much power YOU ALL hold. Air Canada can save money in many different areas with a bit of restructuring. And that restructuring is NOT giving concessions to AC pilots. Someone obviously has you convinced otherwise in your company, and if you need more proof (as already stated), look at the 2 cheapest low costs carriers and look how WELL their pilots are treated!

[navajo_jay]

...the experts in our Economic and Financial Analysis Department describe improvements in the U.S. and Canadian gross domestic product and job market as well as the recovery in both the passenger and air cargo sectors. They also express their concerns about recent increases in fuel costs, which led to their assessment that “the 2011 outlook will largely be determined by the tug of war between fuel and revenue.”

While those factors may determine airlines’ future profitability, they do not determine the value of an airline pilot. While airline managements adjust their business plans according to current events, ALPA is following through on its strategic plan to enhance airline pilots’ quality of life and careers.

We refuse to let external factors that are beyond our control take the Association off course. To that end, ALPA negotiating teams are achieving contractual improvements in pay, work rules, and job security for our members and raising the bar for our profession...

The Value of an Airline Pilot
Capt. Lee Moak, ALPA President

Best of luck with you guys at AC!

Jason

[Gentle Giant]

the ACPA contract makes Jazz the sole source for tier 2 and insulates the Jazz pilots from outside economic forces. Why should you alone in the whole industry be protected in this way and, more to the point, why should the ACPA pilot group do this for you?

yea ok fair enough, but at the same time, if AC wants it so any company can come and compete against Jazz well then sure as hell should be that jazz can go to ANY company and do CPA flying for ANYONE else. I mean we aren't protected anymore so we should the clause remain in the CPA agreement that we are restricted! Funny how things work both ways right. Let's see, anyone know the number for westjet CEO. Maybe they'd be interested in some of our services! It's fair right since we should face the economic pressures! Hey, you never know, maybe come 2020 jazz might take their CPA company elsewhere!

I get your point giant dude but seriously ACPA is very hypocritical . You can't sit here and give jazz shit saying they're protected and anyone should be able to compete against jazz and then at the same time make a fit like a 2 year old when jazz goes and does flying for Thomas Cook. You better believe that with this uncertainty of the CPA, jazz will do anything to obtain MORE flying from WHEREVER they can. And when these days come, you know who you can thank for that happening!

I believe Jazz is free to persue CPA agreements with anyone they want according to their agreement with AC.

I'm not completely clear on the issue with the Thomas Cook flying but I think the problem that some of the guys have is that they believe some AC resources are being used to compete with the Air Canada product. For example the executives and managers would probably need to travel back and forth from YHZ to YYZ - is this being done on AC passes? As I said I'm not really aware of the details but it's that kind of thing that bugs some guys.