LCC

[rudder]

But he admitted Thursday on a conference call that Air Canada may not be able to go ahead with the deal unless its pilots sign off on it, including the low cost carrier’s [LCC] lower wage and benefits.

“You need to have the work rules that are not capable of bouncing back up to the mainline legacy structure,” he said on a conference call.

“Unless we have that, we won’t proceed with it.”

LCC is a one way door - no snap back - no improvements over time.

If it ever opens, the constant threat will be to shut it down if labour dares ask for more. That would result in reductions and bumping. And the question will be - was it worth it?

http://business.financialpost.com/2011/ ... t-carrier/

[MackTheKnife]

There is one reason and one reason only for this LCC Push.


http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/04/25/the-cheap-seats/


"Perhaps most importantly, creating a new discount carrier promises to usher in a new model of employee pay, benefits and work rules at Air Canada.

While the new airline would be operated separately from the main carrier, likely with labour agreements that prohibit it from flying routes occupied by Air Canada’s better-paid pilots, Rovinescu is no doubt hoping that, if the gambit is successful, all of Air Canada’s unionized employees can be convinced that, further cost-cutting is the road to the future. “It appears to me that they are trying to get lower-cost structures on the books,” says Seidel, emphasizing the need for Air Canada to more closely resemble its low-cost competitors. Minus the shorts and propeller hats, of course. "

[SuperTroll]

I say again, will maintenance, rampies, dispatchers, CSAs, schedulers, managers, and executives go on a B scale to get the LCC off the ground? Or will the pilots be expected to carry all the cost cuts on their backs? Again.
This won't create any new jobs, just a transfer of all ACV flying to the LCC. Every flight to the Caribbean, Hawaii and Europe will be "Vacation" flights. Say Buh-bye to any layovers in Europe or turns down south.

[yyz monkey]

According to Calin, no one who goes over from mainline will be taking a pay cut. New hires, however, will be placed on the B-scale.

www.acpresidentenglish.ca

[777longhaul]

It is word twisting with a twist.

The pay scale stays the same, but the working conditions are backwards prior to the jet age. So, you are working more, for the same pay, it is just another nice way, to say you are screwing yourself, and you are going to regret it down the road, regardless, of which pay scale you are on. It is divide and conquer all over, again, in a nice pretty box.

[rudder]

According to Calin, no one who goes over from mainline will be taking a pay cut. New hires, however, will be placed on the B-scale.

But a pilot that bids an upgrade at LCC does not get credit for service for determining Capt pay level and is placed on the LCC pay scale.

Clever play on words by Calin and the NC considering that in the short term upgrade opportunities will in many cases be first available at LCC and not mainline.

[SilentMajority]

Interesting comment from April Maclean's article.....hope this isn't Calin's Plan B

Some AC Management have been down here in SYD, AUST. Looking at the JQ (JETSTAR) operation. The talk down here within Qantas is they might even franchises the Jetstar brand, like what's been done in Singapore and Vietnam. A couple of years ago, when i was in a meeting with a consultant while i was working for an airline in the states, they suggested that Qantas was looking at moving into Canada as it has very similar market dynamics to Australia. Subsequently I have heard and seen documents where they did virtually build a network based in YVR and a smaller hub in YYZ, however after looking into the compliance and regulatory issues coupled with the sky high fuel prices and GFC, that they moved the concept to the back burner and haven't looked back since. From the sounds of it it might be back on the radar.

[Mig29]

Old News but very relevant to this LCC business....


Second Lufthansa pilots' strike looms

"We're striking" was the message in February, and now
A four-day pilots' strike at German airline Lufthansa may yet take place, despite frantic efforts to settle the dispute through arbitration. According to Lufthansa, the trade union Cockpit doesn't want to talk.

Germany's biggest airline Lufthansa and the trade union Cockpit remain at loggerheads, as a second pilots' strike looms.

"So far, we have not received any notification from VC [Cockpit] calling off the strike," Lufthansa spokesman Klaus Walther told the news agency Reuters on Monday. Walther said in a separate interview that Cockpit had rejected the airline's calls for arbitration in a bid to avoid the strike.

A spokesman for Cockpit, which represents roughly 4,000 pilots, told the dpa news agency that the union had no intention of retracting its strike unless Lufthansa cedes some ground first.

"Lufthansa wants something from us," the spokesman said. "They want to save their company from problems, so it's up to them to make the first move. If they don't adjust their position, then we will definitely strike from April 13."

Strike two

The planned four-day strike action would be the second this year; in February roughly 2,000 flights were cancelled, even though the pilots went back to work early after pressure from a labor judge in Frankfurt. Lufthansa estimated the damages of this one-day strike at 48 million euros.


Lufthansa fears more mass-cancellations if the strike goes ahead

Lufthansa has already stated it might sue the Cockpit trade union for damages after the industrial action.

The major bone of contention is how wide-ranging talks on pay and conditions for Lufthansa pilots should be. Lufthansa wants to exclusively discuss the internal situation amongst the airline's core of roughly 4,500 pilots, and to discuss its sister companies - like budget airline German Wings - and their impact on Lufthansa pilots at a later date.

Cockpit is calling for immediate measures to protect Lufthansa from internal competition, as its own budget airline starts cutting into the main company's market share. Lufthansa is unwilling to widen the discussion like this, fearing such a move might jeopardize its freedom in the marketplace.

Cockpit says if its demands are not met, its pilots will renege on their agreement to a cost-cutting plan called "Climb 2011" and will return to their original demands of a 6.4 percent pay raise and improved working conditions.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5434350,00.html


Need anything more be said about this proposed LCC???

[yycflyguy]

The big difference is that the German pilots will not tolerate it. We will be bought... eventually. Not this first TA but it will happen.

[Nirvana]

I say again, will maintenance, rampies, dispatchers, CSAs, schedulers, managers, and executives go on a B scale to get the LCC off the ground? Or will the pilots be expected to carry all the cost cuts on their backs? Again.
This won't create any new jobs, just a transfer of all ACV flying to the LCC. Every flight to the Caribbean, Hawaii and Europe will be "Vacation" flights. Say Buh-bye to any layovers in Europe or turns down south.

Well, the Dispatchers have had a "B" scale for quite some time. It's not only the pilots paying the price.

[Mig29]

They value they work and sacrifice they gave to become airline pilots there. We often forget what it took to get where we are today.....that's not good attitude to have. Also many guys here are all talk and no action.....no one wants to tip the boat, stir the pot but want to have all the goodies in return. Well, this is a grown up world folks, sometimes you have to fight for it, even if it means not getting pay (for a little while).

I sat next to one US Airways senior captain on a flight to YYZ and he told me how they had a strong union back in the old days, and not just US Airways but many other legacy carriers. Management could not touch these guys at all. But then, the companies started to screen new hire pilots to 'best fit' their agenda. Good guys, good pilots, but the ones who will not stir the $#$# and will bow down if under pressure by managers.....Union finally after some years cough up and had to intervene and took them to court...but the damage was done....fast forward and you get the picture.

Now, as for AC just toss in few extra bones among guys, ranging from flypast 60, AC vs Jazz, AC vs Skyregional, Seniors vs Juniors and you have broken the unity......I hope I'm wrong and that guys will stand together on this one.

[FADEC]

A previous VP brought in Anti Union consultants to destroy ACPA; their advice was "Divide and Conquer". We have let them do that. As long as the work and the work force is divided, we are vulnerable.

Why don't we have every aircraft with an Air Canada Logo flown by an Air Canada Pilot. Forget the LCC; Tell Mr Rovinescu that we will fly all the aircraft, for current rates. The Air Georgian, Sky Regional, etc pilots are welcome to apply, and with experience on type, and a good record, will likely be first picked. Pay them what they were paid, and they will come over in droves. Get all the flying at AC, and stop the whipsawing. AC benefits, only one pilot group to deal with. The pilot group benefits with stability; no more whipsawing.

There is no earthly reason AC pilots cannot fly Beech 1900's or even Caravans if the rate is competitive; or are you too proud to fly a turboprop? A Q400 is a pretty nice bird. Give AC reasonable rates, and the Board will look at the idea.

If the problem of cost is other staff, it can be pointed out that AC Pilots are flying for Westjet or Southwest rates (or less); other staff will have to step up or step out.

[fly4ever]

DOH?

[Dark Helmet]

Here is an LCC video





Being Serious here is a document that was floating around last year when Jazz was in negotiations. I don't know if it applies to you floks or if you can get anything out of it but here it is...

Concession Bargaining - How Not To

Except in the most extraordinary circumstances, there is no acceptable reason for a union to bargain concessions. In the case of a business that is profitable, there is absolutely no reason for concession bargaining. The results of concession bargaining over the last two decades should stand as proof that concessions do not benefit workers.

While concessions are often presented to workers as "necessary", something that the company needs to remain viable, let's keep one thing in mind: The objective of a business is to maximize profit. Wages and benefits are a drain on the bottom line so it stands to reason that if these can be reduced, profits will increase. Business, therefore, needs no reason to demand concessions beyond the fact that this will improve bottom line profitability. If you don't ask, you don't get. If a union has a history of concession bargaining, the company is that much more likely to ask. Concessions are not a matter of need, but a competitive advantage to be sought out where it may be achievable.

Whether or not concessions will be pursued aggressively by a business depends largely upon the reaction, official and unofficial, of the union leadership to the company's initial pitch for concessions. If company officials perceive that the union leadership is sympathetic or can be persuaded, the assault will begin. Dire predictions and gloomy forecasts about the future of the business will become a constant theme in management communications to workers. Where union leaders have bought in to management's campaign, "message discipline" from the union office will help to persuade the membership until it eventually capitulates and accepts the employer's terms. The gloom and doom is always positioned as if it were fact although for the most part, it is highly speculative, grossly oversimplified and designed to spread fear, uncertainty and a sense that cuts are inevitable and workers should be happy to have jobs on any terms. It's important not to fall prey to the psychological manipulation of "message discipline" or get caught up in distracting talk about unprofitable operations.
The Standard Pitch & What to Pitch Back

Understanding the strategy and a little about basic business principles can help you to keep yourself from getting sold down the river. Here are the stock arguments in favor of concessions and how you can respond to them:

"We're Poor"

If management insists on crying poor, union leaders can always ask that management "open the books" and prove it .If management won't open their books, information on how your employer is doing may still be available to you. For instance, if the company you work for is publicly owned (it sells shares on the stock market), it is required to publish an annual report and other financial data. In addition, many companies post financial data on their corporate web sites for the benefit of current and prospective investors. You can assume that this information is both current and accurate, as it is a serious thing to mislead investors.

It's highly unlikely that you will get the same gloom and doom being hawked around the bargaining table. And don't worry; you do not need to be a financial wizard to understand the picture. It is a simple equation you need to know for bargaining purposes: either the company is profitable or it isn't. If it's profitable, there is no need for concessions. If it isn't, there is probably still no good reason for you to accept them.

We'll Move/We'll Close

Employers looking for concessions often rely two age-old scare tactics to soften up union members prior to entering into negotiations. The threat of closure and lurking competition. In order to maximize profit, a business needs to be in the game. Leaving a market where it is a major player runs contrary to this objective. Few businesses ever pull out of a market where they are a major player so threats to this effect are more likely to be a bluff to leverage management's position at negotiations than statements of the business's true intentions.

We Can't Compete

Competition is a given in a free market economy. Businesses should expect the arrival of new competitors and new business concepts and be prepared to respond to them in ways that allow them to retain a competitive position. Responding to changes in the marketplace is management's responsibility and not the workers'. A business that can't handle competition will not be in business for long - no matter what you give up.
An employer's inability to compete or to meet the challenges presented by the arrival of new competitors is a failing of management. Some businesses are hampered by unhealthy management cultures that tolerate incompetent managers and generate poor management decisions. All things considered, management ineptitude is more likely to sink the business than the arrival of new competition. Rank and file workers should not be responsible for years of bad management. Concessions on the part of rank and filers will not save a business that is its own worst enemy. At the end of the day, it is management's job to deal with the challenges of being in business.
In short, a business that is failing because of inability to compete or because of a management decision to leave a particular market, will do so no matter what the workers give up. Concessions will only serve to reduce workers' severance and pension entitlements when the inevitable comes to pass.
What to do if you're hearing noises about concessions:

Ask Your Union Leaders

Find out what's going on: Be sure to attend any meetings management is holding with workers to talk about the business, and any meetings that your union is having, to discuss negotiations.
Ask your union leaders if management is going to be seeking concessions and what the union's position on this will be.
Make it clear that you are opposed to concessions. Get that message across every time the subject comes up.
Educate your fellow members about what's really up when it comes to concessions. By presenting a united front to management (and union leaders who may have bought-in) you can minimize the possibility that your hard-won gains will be bartered away because management isn't doing its job.
Remind anyone trying to persuade you to accept rollbacks of the following three simple points:
The real financial position of the business as presented in their own documents.
That it is management's job to make the business profitable.
That wage concessions have never helped workers and you have no reason to believe that they will benefit you.

[TheSuit]

Wow, I understand solidarity at the bargaining table, but this document is delusional. Companies don't leave markets? Are you completely unaware of something called offshoring? There is a reason why you can't buy Nikes made in North America or even most of a 787 or Q400 now. Do you understand why VW's are made in Mexico? Do you understand the GM's market share has been declining for decades or that GE's work force is half what it use to be? Those companies were GIANTS. Air Canada doesn't have an asset to thier name. You must be crazy.

How do you expect Air Canada to save money and actually run a profit? Stop buying fuel? Stop paying taxes? Stop paying aircraft leases? I have never read one single idea on this forum from the pilot group. One chest thumping post after another berating management and not one suggestion.

[WhatThe?]

I find it interesting that the financial wizards of Bay Street are rating Air Canada as a "Buy" or "Strong Buy", and forecast 2012 as being a banner year.

But the sky is falling!

I wish you all good luck in your negotiations, but Air Canada is not going anywhere regardless of what happens in your negotiations.



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-in ... /?q=AC.A-T

[Lost in Saigon]

How do you expect Air Canada to save money and actually run a profit? Stop buying fuel? Stop paying taxes? Stop paying aircraft leases? I have never read one single idea on this forum from the pilot group. One chest thumping post after another berating management and not one suggestion.

Air Canada can save money and turn a profit by treating their pilots with the respect and professionalism they deserve. It starts at the top. Morale has never been so low and distrust has never been so high.

"Army of One" is a pretty good description of what is now happening at Air Canada.

I am an Army of One (or 2, or 300, ...)

I am an army of One -
For years I was a loyal soldier. Now I fight my own war.
I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder.
They (AC) used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes.
They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.

I used to save thousand pounds of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn".

I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book.

I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up.
I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.
I am an army of One.

I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort.
I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do.
I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold.
I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I do it for the rampers and agents who need the bonus money….but this too may change.
I used to call dispatch for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now I collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.

I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make AC rich. Now it's to make AC pay.

When they furlough more pilots than the rest, pilots that cost them 60 cents on the dollar - I will make them pay.
When they under-staff bases and over-work reserves to keep pilots downgraded, down-flowed, or downtrodden - I will make them pay.
When over-booked customers are denied boarding system wide, while jets are parked in the desert - I will make them pay.
When they force pilots, who have waited 12 years to become captains, to be FOs again - I will make them pay.
.
When they recall F/As for the summer, just to furlough them again in the fall like migrant workers - I will make them pay.
When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make them pay.

My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for AC again. Until then, I am an Army of One…And I'm not alone!

[TheSuit]

I also find it interesting that this rating coincides with the announcement of the LCC as well as the fact that the stock is almost pennystock right now anyways.

[TheSuit]

And btw, professionals don't intentionally harm their companies performance. Maybe when your physicians or nurses union wants more money they should botch a few exams? You're suggesting that if Air Canada were to pay union workers more what would happen exactly?

[hnl]

And btw, professionals don't intentionally harm their companies performance. Maybe when your physicians or nurses union wants more money they should botch a few exams? You're suggesting that if Air Canada were to pay union workers more what would happen exactly?

A voice of reason. AC pilots are ultimate professionals.

[IronMan]

And btw, professionals don't intentionally harm their companies performance. Maybe when your physicians or nurses union wants more money they should botch a few exams? You're suggesting that if Air Canada were to pay union workers more what would happen exactly?

Try reading the posts above again, and well, again and again, until you understand what is being said. And yes, doctors and nurses all change their work habits when they feel the need to impress their self and professional worth on those who pay them. Maybe you should take a peek out of your little management cubicle and catch a glimpse of the real world.

[TheSuit]

I have physicians in my family (one of which was in bargaining as recently as last year), and I can assure you they would find what you are suggesting disgraceful. If you find it acceptable that your highly paid surgeon doesn't feel like showing up today and performing your procedure there's something wrong with you. It is one thing to stop coming in early and leaving late, it is quite another to stop doing the job you're being paid to do. You're either on strike or you're not.

The management cubicle is where the professionals live. We don't start sandbagging the company when we're dissatisfied; if we don't like how we're being treated, we take our services elsewhere; simple. This is the real world where we don't try to stay insulated forever from market forces. Maybe you should poke your head out of the flight deck and have a look.

[IronMan]

LOL...Nobody said anything about not showing up for work, or puposefully being reckless or unsafe. The job, just like the job of your suposed relative who is a doctor, is getting done. It just that it can be done differently under other circumstances. BTW, doctors and nurses are extremely adept at maneuvering their leverage to suit their needs. The rest of your post about management is hilarious and when I stop rolling on the floor I'll post a response!

[Mig29]

The management cubicle is where the professionals live. We don't start sandbagging the company when we're dissatisfied; if we don't like how we're being treated, we take our services elsewhere; simple.

Then you should take you service and go elsewhere, you will not get any more from AC pilot. They gave way too much already. To insult their intelligence and hard earned work that got them to where they are is something that you can't "buy".

And please, use your real avatar next time, I'm sick and tired of you "newbies" posting for the "first time" here with your smart a** ideologies! Just do us all a favor and keep your head inside of your cubicle! Or sit in the flight deck for a week and see how the world "looks" like from our view.

[TheSuit]

Then you should take you service and go elsewhere, you will not get any more from AC pilot. They gave way too much already. To insult their intelligence and hard earned work that got them to where they are is something that you can't "buy".

Not a manager nor do I work for AC, just a worker bee. I'm not sure why someone would "give" anything to the company in the first place, business is business. Corporations exist to make money, workers are an expense, and you're fooling yourself if you think otherwise. Southwest and WestJet operate under the same philosphy, except it's dressed up as caring because they feel keeping workers happy is profitable for them. The second they feel they are no longer getting a return for their touchy feely dollars, those dollars will be axed. Your pilot group would do alot better by showing management exactly how much money they stand to gain by improving your working conditions instead of trying to threaten how much they will lose if they don't. Think win-win instead of lose-lose. No investor anywhere will shell out more cash for no promise of return.

You blame everything on Calin but he answers to the people who hold the purse strings. If they feel he's losing them money, he'll be fired and replaced with another hardass cost cutter; your investors don't appreciate losing money. I have read alot of posts here about pilots claiming they are "worth" more money, but business is about hard dollars. How do you plan to balance the extra money going out the door to you?

Or sit in the flight deck for a week and see how the world "looks" like from our view

Are you aware that the top 5% of earners in Canada are above $89,000 annually and the top 1% are above $181,000 annually? I would love your salary, and frankly your job. I have had expensive training and crappy jobs too, I don't make half of what you make.