Mountain Flying, and Flight Training

[DHCdriver]

Great thread, I have 0 hrs over and between the rocks, so I'm going to sit back and soak all this in. DHC

[iflyforpie]

Can someone explain to me how I fly VY or VX when my airspeed indicator is jumping up and down like mad due to turbulence and wind shear?

The same way you use a magnetic compass in the same situation. Observe it in a calm moment, and maintain the sight picture (landmark or attitude as appropriate). Vy isnt an airspeed for me, it's an attitude, power, and trim setting that just so happens to make the airspeed indicator read Vy when it isn't bumpy...

I think that is what STL is alluding to when he talks about you machine talking to you. If you've got a death grip on the controls and your head inside chasing needles, you are going to miss what is outside and what your ship is telling you until the horn goes
off or you drop a wing. Fly with a light touch, and your plane will always be at the right speed. Planes are very reluctant to stall without an outside influence (usually a pilot pulling back).

Once your plane is talking to you, see how it looks outside. If things are disappearing behind that ridge you want to cross, pulling back on the stick is not the solution. Time to reassess.

[Cat Driver]

The same way you use a magnetic compass in the same situation. Observe it in a calm moment, and maintain the sight picture (landmark or attitude as appropriate). Vy isnt an airspeed for me, it's a trim and power setting that just so happens to make the airspeed indicator read Vy when it isn't bumpy...

Exactly.......

And that is why I worded my question the way I did so one of you would elaborate on the question and reinforce the fact that when flying VFR in or out of turbulence the fucking airplane fly's by angle of attack which when flying VFR is best judged by looking outside and not inside.

It drives me nuts when I watch pilots airspeed chasing looking at the instruments, it is an indicator of abysmal training right from the first hour

[Walker]

A+P=P

[old_man]

And that is why I worded my question the way I did so one of you would elaborate on the question and reinforce the fact that when flying VFR in or out of turbulence the fucking airplane fly's by angle of attack which when flying VFR is best judged by looking outside and not inside.

I fully agree with setting an attitude to get the desired air speed. However, in my incredibly limited experience, I found it hard to set an attitude looking outside when working deep in the valleys, canyons, bowls, and what not. I fell for all the visual illusions. When there is no horizon and you are staring up at over 3000 ft of rock towering above you as up approaching a landing pad on the side of a steep face I found I could not know what was a level attitude with out looking at the AI. I was still setting an attitude to get a desired performance and not chasing needles but I just couldn't seem to do it with just looking solely outside. I also sometimes had problems knowing if I was above or below the landing spot with out cross checking the altimeter. Those illusions got to me.

Basically I was told to get a strong cross check going and that it was almost like IFR flying but with VFR navigation.

Again, this was just my observation based on my limited flying experience and even more limited mountain exposure. I don't have anywhere near the time or experience you do .. Not even close.

But ya. A+P=P and Control vs Performance instruments.

[Grantmac]

Can someone explain to me how I fly VY or VX when my airspeed indicator is jumping up and down like mad due to turbulence and wind shear?

My first question would be what the heck are you doing looking at the AI in those conditions to begin with Its like talking to someone who flies a taildragger and they tell you what airspeed they like to start the flare at, makes you shake your head a little.
Set a pitch attitude, trim then re-evaluate once your stabilized.
Trim position, control force, RPM and sound are all better indications of what the aircraft is doing in that situation. Your shooting for a trend, so long as the aircraft is mostly at or around Vy (whatever that happens to be at that DA) then you'd doing fine.

-Grant

[iflyforpie]

As someone who has flown most of his hours without a meaningful horizon, it is just something you get used to. I think the gyros in my head just know where to go, because when someone else is flying the plane I can tell right away when they are slightly off. Like I said right at the beginning, you need exposure to hone your mountain flying skills--even if it is just doing some steep turns in a wide mountain valley (Fraser Valley, Okanagan Valley, Columbia Valley, or Bow Valley for examples).

If you use the instruments, it is only about 10% inside to 90% outside. Use them to confirm your performance (including the AH) not control your actions.

[Cat Driver]

I am not stating that reference to the airspeed indicator is not a good cross check of where the airplane is in the flight envelope.

What I was trying to point out is the airspeed indicator always lags with regard to attitude changes and throw in turbulence and it becomes even less accurate as an indicator of attack angle....which is how the airplane fly's.

So the small difference between VY and VX in a light airplane becomes mute in such conditions.

I fly by visual clues outside the airplane combined with " feel " and " sound " to best control my attitude...and of course a quick glance at the airspeed indicator as a rough check that I have it right.

That has worked just fine for me for almost sixty years and to this point I have never wrecked one yet.

[old_man]

I am not stating that reference to the airspeed indicator is not a good cross check of where the airplane is in the flight envelope.

What I was trying to point out is the airspeed indicator always lags with regard to attitude changes and throw in turbulence and it becomes even less accurate as an indicator of attack angle....which is how the airplane fly's.

So the small difference between VY and VX in a light airplane becomes mute in such conditions.

I fly by visual clues outside the airplane combined with " feel " and " sound " to best control my attitude...and of course a quick glance at the airspeed indicator as a rough check that I have it right.

That has worked just fine for me for almost sixty years and to this point I have never wrecked one yet.

I fully agree with you and heed to your experience and the fact that you are still alive after flying for 60 years.

All I was trying to say is that in my short time being deep inside in the rocks was that I found I could not set an attitude without looking at the A.I. After that I could maybe keep the attitude but not always. Damn illusions...... I think this is what get some fixed wing pilots in trouble. Thinking they are flying level with a ridge when in fact they are in a gentle climb attitude and reaching closer and closer ever so to the edge of their performance envelope.

As for VFR in flatter terrain....oh ya. You know you power setting you know your attitude.....everything else (air speed, atl, vsi...etc) should just more or less fall into place with some fine tuning. just look outside and fly. But again I am relatively new at this. At least that's how I see it.

*sigh* so hard to communicate on boards.

[Cat Driver]

You are communicating just fine old-man and I fully understand your thoughts about what you have been experiencing.

I am only cautioning you about to much reliance on the airspeed indicator for angle of attack information......the airspeed indicator lags...therefore it tells you what your angle of attack was.....not what it is.

Angle of attack determines when your airplane stalls and the critical angle of attack remains the same regardless of density altitude or angle of bank in a turn.

I can not figure out why training schools do not install angle of attack indicators as they are not all that expensive.......

...I bought one for my Cub project for under $1,500 from Alpha Systems.

Google it and read about how it works.

[old_man]

You are communicating just fine old-man and I fully understand your thoughts about what you have been experiencing.

I am only cautioning you about to much reliance on the airspeed indicator for angle of attack information......the airspeed indicator lags...therefore it tells you what your angle of attack was.....not what it is.

Airspeed always lags and fluctuates and dances and etc. I agree. I, personally, just change an attitude to effect a change in airspeed over a long term. In my limited time I could still get into a rant of certain people just not setting a power and attitude setting at letting everything else settle out.

Angle of attack determines when your airplane stalls and the critical angle of attack remains the same regardless of density altitude or angle of bank in a turn.

These days I am in the heli world. AOA has a bit of a different meaning. But attitude determines a lot still.

I can not figure out why training schools do not install angle of attack indicators as they are not all that expensive.......

...I bought one for my Cub project for under $1,500 from Alpha Systems.

Google it and read about how it works.

A gentleman as smart as yourself should know. Penny saved is a penny earned. Transport doesn't require it, then so be it. Besides...a G1000 looks oh so much cooler.................

[Cat Driver]

Ahhhh...so.....you fly helicopters.

That puts you in another class in my opinion old-man.

Helicopters are way,way better than fixed wing.

Glass cockpits are the way of the future for sure.......but the basics of flying are the same and if not taught and understood by the student all the modern aids will not make them better pilots.

I am going back to work flying after five years of retirement.....and the main reason is because I will be going back to flying a helicopter.

[sky's the limit]

Ahhhh...so.....you fly helicopters.

That puts you in another class in my opinion old-man.

Helicopters are way,way better than fixed wing.

Glass cockpits are the way of the future for sure.......but the basics of flying are the same and if not taught and understood by the student all the modern aids will not make them better pilots.

I am going back to work flying after five years of retirement.....and the main reason is because I will be going back to flying a helicopter.

How long have I been telling you that .??? Lol Looking forward to you getting that thing so we can go play.

Fortunately your understanding of ATTITUDE control will serve you very well in the 206, or any other helicopter for that matter. It is of course the single biggest factor in properly controlling an aircraft, particularly when in the mountains on a windy day.

The basic principals of flight never change, from small piston a/c to heavy jets, to helicopters, a well flown machine will behave as the pilot intends, and in a predictable way. This is critical when a person finds themselves in a tricky situation in close proximity to the terrain. Again, coupled with knowledge of what is happening outside the cockpit, flying in the mountains can be enjoyable and safe.

Going back to my reference of "listening to your aircraft." Can anyone tell me how a pilot can find the wind direction, strength, and vertical component when outside references such as water, trees, grass, smoke, or cows are absent? Ie, by using the information you have at your disposal with the aircraft itself?

stl

[Posthumane]

Going back to my reference of "listening to your aircraft." Can anyone tell me how a pilot can find the wind direction, strength, and vertical component when outside references such as water, trees, grass, smoke, or cows are absent? Ie, by using the information you have at your disposal with the aircraft itself?

I'll take a stab at this but, being a noob, I reserve the right to be wrong.

Knowing the level flight attitude of your aircraft you can tell if you have a up or downdraft if your aircraft is climbing or descending in your usual level attitude. It is also apparent when you fly into an area of lift or sink because of the heavy or light feeling on your butt as your aircraft begins to rise or fall. The wind component that's perpendicular to your flightpath can be seen from drift left or right along the ground, and you can turn 90 degrees to get the component parallel to your previous flight path. Also, as you approach a ridge you get lift if you're on the windward side and sink on the lee side (generally) so you can get a rough idea of wind direction in that way...

[Cat Driver]

When flying an aircraft,be it fixed wing or the far superior rotary wing I project a path I want to fly, any deviation of my projected path be it up, down or left , right or any combination of all will altert me to a change in air flow on the path I have projected.

From any change in the rojected path I then analyze what factors are causing the change and correct it back to my desired path....or break off and get out of the situation.

I t is only learned by experience and attention to detail.

Crop dusting, low level surfervey, fire bombing, and eight years as an airdisplsy pilot in Europe
Honed my kill in flying airplnes nd making them go here I wanted to go.

Europe honed my skills for high control flying near the ground.

[Grantmac]

You are communicating just fine old-man and I fully understand your thoughts about what you have been experiencing.

I am only cautioning you about to much reliance on the airspeed indicator for angle of attack information......the airspeed indicator lags...therefore it tells you what your angle of attack was.....not what it is.

Angle of attack determines when your airplane stalls and the critical angle of attack remains the same regardless of density altitude or angle of bank in a turn.

I can not figure out why training schools do not install angle of attack indicators as they are not all that expensive.......

...I bought one for my Cub project for under $1,500 from Alpha Systems.

Google it and read about how it works.

If only the FAA had made AOA indicators a certification requirement instead of the "idiot horn" then I'd be a much happier man. There are decent mechanical versions that can be made from a few dollars of aluminium.

I'm trying to convince the person rebuilding my wings to leave the damn thing (stall horn) off but he's rather by the book on those things, useless though it is.

-Grant

[old_man]

Going back to my reference of "listening to your aircraft." Can anyone tell me how a pilot can find the wind direction, strength, and vertical component when outside references such as water, trees, grass, smoke, or cows are absent? Ie, by using the information you have at your disposal with the aircraft itself?

stl

For vertical I found that just flying a standard airspeed (or attitude if you will) and just look at how much power you need to keep your altitude. You should know what you need for a no wind scenario so if it is above that you are in downflow and vice versa.

Center the ball and see which way the aircraft is crabbing...that should tell you a bit about the wind.

I was also taught to fly low level passes really tight to my landing spot 180 degrees from each other at the same airspeed and see which one 'felt or looked' slower.

STL how do you do it? What tricks do you have? I am all ears.

[gaamin]

Going back to my reference of "listening to your aircraft." Can anyone tell me how a pilot can find the wind direction, strength, and vertical component when outside references such as water, trees, grass, smoke, or cows are absent? Ie, by using the information you have at your disposal with the aircraft itself?

Look ahead outside.
On their first flight, most of my students are able to tell where the aeroplane is going just by looking ahead. Up, down, sideways, turning, not turning... they see what is happening. They also hear the engine, the sound of airspeed against the aircraft, feel in their pants whether or not they're coordinated. Part of my job as an instructor is ensure they don't forget that, often with the help of my map to cover instruments.

I have very limited experience flying a helicopter (one flight only), and found attitude harder to judge (then again, probably some force of habit from flying most of my hours in something else). I'd say the picture is "bigger" that in a glider or an aeroplane, peripheral vision has perhaps more importance, and the attitude changes to look for seem smaller. Also, flying uncoordinated didn't give the same feel as in a fixed-wing, so I'd expect illusions created by drift to be harder to see, making wind direction harder to feel.
Also, in no wind I did a better job of hovering, taking off and landing, when I was chatting with the instructor, than when I was quiet and too focused on the task at hand, possibly overthinking it. It was good to be in the student's seat and experience first hand what I had only been a witness to thus far.

So : look outside to see what the plane is doing, don't overthink, have experience.

[sky's the limit]

Some good responses to the question, and the prize goes out to Old Man (a bit unfair as it seems he has had some heli mtn training...!)

Whether you are flying an airplane or a helicopter, you have all the tools you need to figure out the wind (which I will reiterate is THE single most important thing in mountain work/flying) right at your fingertips. Old Man's answer is the fundamentally sound basics of it, and although one can expand further, for the airplane application it's not necessary so I'll just expand and explain a little bit further on what he wrote - I have the time... stuck in a hotel room waiting for fire!

Earlier in the thread I mentioned the necessity to fly the aircraft cleanly and co-ordinated, this is the most basic of things, but one that is often poorly performed, and it is the main requirement for understanding what your aircraft is telling you - this cannot be overstated. Everything I will say and Old Man touched on is wasted if you cannot do this, but there are several things working against you in the mountains, not the least of which are the various illusions at play which tend to greatly deceive pilots who are not aware of them and how to combat them - it is no different than overcoming the "leans" when learning to fly IMC. You have to understand what they are, and how to mitigate them. (Illusions are a whole separate post however) Rough air can also be a factor.


Wind Direction and Strength: In any location, flat or mountainous, a pilot can very accurately determine the direction and strength of the wind using the Crab Angle of the (co-ordinated) aircraft and the Apparent Groundspeed over the surface. Everyone who flies knows what a downwind turn looks/feels like, and what the indications are so I won't labour the point, but there are ways to more accurately determine strength and direction than simply flying a circle above a particular spot as is so commonly used in airplane training.

If an aircraft is flying co-ordinated and at a constant speed in a zero wind situation, no matter which direction it is flying it will look and feel the same. If you add a simple horizontal wind factor to the equation a couple of things happen; you get a noticeable crab one direction or the other, and you will feel an increase or decrease in Apparent Groundspeed. These two factors alone can give you a very accurate idea of what it happening.

Imagine flying two parellel lines (tracks over the ground) at the same altitude and airspeed over the same spot, one due north, the other due south. (I wish I could draw this out for you, but words will have to suffice) In zero wind conditions there will be no difference. Now, let's imagine a 10kt wind from due West, what will happen?

On the northbound (co-ordinated!) leg your nose will point West, or into the wind. On the Southbound leg you nose will also point into the wind, or West. The nose of the aircraft will always show you where your wind is, so in our simple scenario we can see the wind is from the West because of our Crab angle. (We are NOT worried about looking at lateral drift over the ground, ONLY where the nose is pointed). But we cannot yet be sure it is due West, only from the Western half of the compass. In our situation there will be not discernible difference in our speed over the ground on these two passes, ergo the wind is due West.

Now, if we add a layer to our scenario and move that 10kt wind from due West to a Northwesterly direction what other information can we determine? Wind speed in addition to direction.

By using the apparent groundspeed (you must be close enough to the ground ie. a couple hundred ft max) differences you can find the direction and strength of wind affecting your aircraft. Back on our co-ordinated and constant speed Northbound leg, the nose will still crab to the left, or West, but the aircraft will feel slower than it would in a zero wind condition. Reverse the course and the nose will still point West, or right this time, but the aircraft will feel faster over the ground. That 10kt wind can now easily be determined to be coming from the North West. Make sense?

If your pass were to be flown at a constant 80kts IAS, your groundspeed Northbound would be roughly 75kts, and your speed southbound would be 85kts, a considerable difference in feel. Again, it is VITAL that a constant airspeed is flown. (GPS can also be used to assit in this, but I generally frown upon teaching that right away as there are inherent issues with this, especially at altitude)



Vertical Component Of Wind: Many things factor in giving the wind a vertical component, from simple daytime heating, to terrain influenced winds and localized wx phenomenon to name a couple. 99.9% of airplanes flying through the mountains do not need to specifically find this component, but there are some scenarios mostly in off-strip and float flying that do on occasion require an understanding of it. All helicopters need to understand it given the constant proximity to terrain where we operate.

I'll try to keep our original scenario for simplicity, just expand on it a bit.

Now imagine the spot we flew over North and South was a gravel strip on a bench on the East side of a mountain or hill in a broad valley. We already know the wind is blowing from the NW along the valley, but we don't know if our strip is under the influence of up flowing, down flowing, or steady air. In an airplane operating in this type of application, the approach profile you choose is heavily determined by this factor - too low in descending air and you can be behind the power curve and come up short, too high in up flowing air and you may land long with serious consequences. It's always nice to have a plan going into a landing.

There are some simple ways to make an educated guess at what the vertical component of the wind is: time of day can be a clue (winds generally flow downhill at night and into late morning before daytime heating reverses it), are you landing on the sunny side of a hill/range, or the shady side (up flow in the sun, down flow in the shade), is the air over your site rough or smooth (rough air is generally down flowing, where up flow will be smoother)?

All of these in time can be used to speed up the efficiency of your wind determination, but if you really need to know, there is another way to find it, one Old Man mentioned - Power req'd for level flight.

Same scenario: we fly Northbound with the nose crabbed left, feeling slower than our 80kts A/S, but to maintain a constant altitude of say 200ft AGL so we can look closely at our strip, (Maintain an ASL height, say 2500ft on the altimeter for arguments sake), we notice that we've had to pull the power back a couple of inches. On the Southbound leg we notice that we have not changed the manifold pressure to maintain that height... what is it telling us?

On the Northbound leg we are experiencing up flowing air (reduced power), a headwind component (slower apparent G/S), and a wind from our left or West (Crab angle). On the Southbound leg the MP does not change but the other variables do as discussed. You can be pretty confident you are experiencing up flowing air across your desired landing point. Clear as mud? Lol

This got far longer winded - no pun intended - than I wanted as this is better discussed with a chalk board, or pen and napkin, but I hope this gives you a good idea of how a pilot can, if required, accurately find wind in three dimensions. In rotary wing applications this can be expanded greatly, and must be, but I will not go into that here.

Now, this NEEDS to be practiced as a training exercise, and you will obviously not be doing this for all landings in the mountains, I simply want to illustrate the point that there is a very good and easy method to find wind simply by flying the airplane accurately and in a deliberate manner. Combine this with knowledge of how the mountain environment works, and a pilot can easily, and safely work in all manner of "nasty" places in the mountains once experience has been gained.

As someone said, this form of communication leaves much to be desired, but I hope you can take something from this.

stl

[iflyforpie]

One thing about the power required, it works for when you have extra power available, but most of my flying is done with the throttle wide open and MP sitting less than 20", still mere feet away from terrain at many points. RPM can be brought up to give me a bit more power, but it just isn't the same.

Engine power will fill the gaps a certain amount, but I find with anemic piston powered aircraft they simply don't have the power to deal with some of the more extreme air currents.

So in addition to power, what I use is vertical speed. I don't bother maintaining an altitude in the mountains with power doing patrols or transiting. If I am too low, I go an find some lift to get me higher if time is not a constraint. If the wind is blowing up, the VSI and the seat of my pants will tell me I am going up... as well as often quite apparent visual cues from the terrain.


This is what I was alluding to earlier with determining the energy your aircraft has available. If your aircraft is accepting energy from the air, you can either convert it into potential energy (extra altitude, which is preferable) or airspeed (you can really book it flying parallel to a light mountain wave if you can stay out of the rotors). If the wind is blowing down, it is taking energy away from your aircraft. You either have to sacrifice airspeed (bad) or altitude (bad if you have nowhere to go).



If you've ever been in a glider, you know that finding rising air currents is how you keep on flying. Here, gliders can go hundreds of miles and cross ranges without any power at all. They have a special instrument that helps them find lift called a Total Engergy Variometer, which is kind of like a Vertical Speed Indicator, except it reads in knots and will not go up if you simply increase the pitch attitude. This is because it senses the energy in your airspeed and vertical speed. If you rob one to feed the other, your total energy has not gone up.

Like an AOA indicator, a Variometer would be an awesome addition to powered aircraft, but alas we only have the Vertical Speed Indicator.

But, if we keep the aircraft coordinated and maintain a constant airspeed and a constant power setting, use the seat of our pants to feel the plane being pushed up or dropping, and pay attention to the visual cues, the VSI behaves much like a Variometer.

[burhead1]

Sounds like it would make sense to have some glider training, before taking a mountain flying course. Even then baby steps until you are more experienced.
Great thread and information!

[Cat Driver]

I assume you all mean ball in the center with wings level when you say " Co-ordinated " flight?

[old_man]

I assume you all mean ball in the center with wings level when you say " Co-ordinated " flight?

That is what I have always been taught.

Although I did read a very good article in Vertical that described the difference between have the string centered (if equipped) and having the ball centered.

[Cat Driver]

How many flying school airplanes are out there flying around with the wrong rudder trim, and or wrong wing angle of incidence and or other rigging problems?

[Shiny Side Up]

For an 'inexperienced' pilot, Lousy Fisherman makes some very good points.

A 4000 foot/minute downdraft will have a huge cushion of air above the trees so you will never hit the ground

I'll assume you're joking here, but you'd be suprised at how many people do actually think the above is true. Newton's laws would disagree with the above idea.

In my experience, a 4000 FPM downdraft will be moderated by flat ground close to terrain. The air simply has nowhere to go an must go horizontal.

The problem is though, that often the terrain we are being pushed towards isn't flat (like the ridge ahead of us) and when the wind changes direction you can get some massive wind shear.

The other problem is that the air can turn corners considerably sharper than your airplane can. So when the air stops descending, it doesn't mean your airplane does. In this case you'd better be pointing towards terrain that's descending away from you. The worst places for finding some of these types of downdrafts tend to be the last range of rocks eastward - especially later in the day. The air on those slopes cools off rapidly when the suns not on them and flows downhill with the water (this info is also very useful when planning on tenting in these areas too - if you don't want to blow away while you're sleeping). Which brings me to a point that hasn't been mentioned, don't press darkness when you're out in the hills - though I see people do it all the time. For some reason its hard to get through to people that flying is usually best in the morning. Personally if I'm planning on flying in the Rocks, I like to be done before 14:00, especially if you're planning on heading back eastbound.

I do most of my flying with topo maps. VNCs are just too small, poorly labeled, and don't show as much detail...

One caveat... meters not feeters. Don't trust them for elevations.

One thing I've been lucky to have access to is my father's collections of maps, which covers most of the eastern slopes everywhere along the forestry trunk road to the BC border. I don't fly with them but they're great to refer to. Incidentally they're still labeled in feet and miles.

If you are going into an area where your spidey senses start to tingle, right away slow the aircraft to Vy. This will give you more time to think, reduce the radius of any turn you might do, and give you the most excess energy available to either climb or to reduce your descent rate if you are in a downdraft.

This is probably the hardest thing to communicate to someone new to mountain flying. I guess that's what experience does. Its about being ahead of the game so when your "spidey sense" does tingle, you're doing something about it. Part of the problem I find when doing any mountain training is to keep a student on task - its very easy for some of them to get distracted by the scenery and not pay attention to what's going on. They don't notice the altitude changing right away, the downdraft, or maybe even that slight change in air temperature that tips you off that you're in different air (and if its colder, its likely descending) or in the shadow rather than on the sunny side of the slope. One can sympathise, but not excuse it.

People are downright frightened of the Eastern mountains and Coast mountains, but far more seducing are the rolling foothills and the low valleys in the BC interior with high plateaus surrounding.

While I only have a small bit of experience out on the coast, respect is rightfully given to the Last ranges (or first depending on your direction of travel). Primarily because its the generator of all the scary weather, in the mountains and eastward onto the flats. A very bad place to be when the wind is out of the west - even when you've though your out of the Rocks. Hence the idea about not flying there in the afternoon. During spring summer and fall the eastern slopes generate CBs on a regular (I would daresay very predictable) basis. Not what you want to encounter on your last leg home, or worst, be forced to divert back into the mountains.

Fly safe and treat any training or experience you have as a license to learn. I was in 30 knot winds flying at 5000ft in the valley to the west yesterday... never seen that before--142 knots ground speed in a 172.

[/quote]

IF you want to find even better groundspeed, I'd reccomend plotting a course out through the crow's nest on a windy day. The tubulence might shake the fillings out of your teeth though.

One last thing.

After reading all of this, I am more reluctant that ever to check people out in the mountains.

Unfortunately few instructors have the background to teach this subject, I personally do not believe there is ever going to be an answer to this problem.....because the industry is completely focused on who can do it the cheapest.

In my opinion, mountain training is fundamentally flawed, as simply encourages people with insufficient experience to get into dangerous situations.

True and those of us who have retired from aviation are reluctant to get involved in such training for many reasons.

I haven't done a mountain check-out since.

These comments outline some of the crucial issues at hand. Those who do have the experience in the fixed wing world:

a) Aren't actively engaged in instructing or,
b) Are reluctant to pass on the knowledge

I understand the idea that one doesn't want to give instruction for fear that said students will use it poorly. This is unfortunately a risk one runs with our endeavor. The problem being is that people will still want to fly into the mountains. There's a very strong appeal to it. Those the most hell bent out there are going to anyways. I can recall a fellow I knew who showed me a bunch of pics he took flying in the hills which was "no big deal" to him - some of which were above a cloud layer with just the tips of some of the rocks poking through. This with a fresh RPP, wrap your brain around that. Unfortunately some learning is better than no learning as bad as that may seem when it comes to this topic I feel. There most definitely needs to be more. We're getting to a point where soon if you want mountain experience, you'll just have to go try it yourself and learn, which will probably be worse than it is now.

Side Topic:

One of the most frustrating for me is observing the low level of understanding of even the basics in flying so prevalent in the PPL' s we sometimes get to fly with and talk to. Seems that a lot of PPL's just can not grasp the fact that some flight instructors have very limited knowledge and experience and would rather believe their instructors than us because we do not hold a valid instructors rating.

The unfortunate thing I've found in the flying world - well, just the world in general - is that there is a whole lot of bullshit that is liberally spread through out it. Lord knows this forum has its fair share. I wouldn't take it personally, but its hard for the neophytes to tell the difference between who's giving them a BS line and who isn't, and if they're a clever neophyte, they'll be skeptical from the get go. I think its less that they place a lot of trust in someone who holds an instructor rating, in more that they are more familiar with that person and are probably used to their brand of BS having sat next to them in close confines for at least 30 hours. Don't be so sure that they don't know that their instructor hasn't a lot of experience. Personally I'm reluctant to tell people I instruct so they don't assume I know nothing, on the rare occasion I fly when not gainfully employed, just to show you the other side of the coin.