Diamond Training Question - Soft Field

[Shiny Side Up]

Hard to say. All I know is if you want to change flight training and stuff, you have to sing loud.

[Type4]

I hold nearly full back pressure on the controls until I start getting some airspeed on the roll. As the A/C picks up airspeed I start easing off the back pressure just a bit to prevent a tail strike on the Diamond. The T tail is kind of on/off in a soft field take off. Nothing, nothing, then bam. Just be ready to control that nose when it wants to pitch up.

[YOWza]

There's nothing wrong with doing it either of the 2 ways suggested earlier. This plane will perform well on grass with both techniques. It obviously wasn't built for real rough strips, it's a docile trainer and a Sunday flier.

[straightpilot]

Never understood why people put a t-tail on a prop airplane. We learned back in the 70's it was a bad idea. This is why the Europeans are smarter than us.

[iflyforpie]

Never understood why people put a t-tail on a prop airplane. We learned back in the 70's it was a bad idea. This is why the Europeans are smarter than us.

Diamond Aircraft Industries is an Austrian-based manufacturer of general aviation aircraft and motor gliders....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_Ai ... Industries

[Beefitarian]

Never understood why people put a t-tail on a prop airplane. We learned back in the 70's it was a bad idea. This is why the Europeans are smarter than us.

Diamond Aircraft Industries is an Austrian-based manufacturer of general aviation aircraft and motor gliders....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_Ai ... Industries

Are you saying they're part of Europe pie? Your geography is terrible, it's down under mate. I could be kidding, I might not. That's what makes it a great joke.

[Type4]

Is my sarcasm detector broken?

Austria (Europe)vs Australia(down under)

[trey kule]

The T tail is kind of on/off in a soft field take off. Nothing, nothing, then bam. Just be ready to control that nose when it wants to pitch up.

so let me get this straight. There is no elevator authority on the start of the take off roll. So exactly what reason would you be using to have the elevator full up (CC all the way back)? According to you, nothing is happening.
Now when it does bite, again according to you ..bam...So why would you have the cc full back then if you know that when it takes effect the nose pop up, and you have to be ready to control it.
Am I the only one who cannot understand how this can make sense?
I am going to say it again. All planes are different in their technique. And your students should understand that thoroughly before you teach anyparticular procedure or you will end up with them saying....well this is the way we did it....
If you are flying a plane that has on elevator authority on the initial role and then suddenly gets to much authority because you have the cc all the way back, maybe you really need to use a bit of common sense, and figure out a better approximation of how much backpressure to imput initially so you dont have a big.....bam. it also might be just a bit safer if the wind is gusty.. Gusty winds and elevators that will suddenly become effective and holding them full back wil bite you.

As to Cat's idea of no OC FTU's. To be the devils advocate , did you consider that if they did what you suggest, it would not be us old guys out there, but some 20 year old, 300 hours wonder out there instructing. I am not sure that would improve things. At least in theory their is a CFI monitoring the training in the present situation. I say theory because if instructors are coming on here and talking about holding the cc full aft, it is obvious that some CFI's are not doing their job.

And as it has been decades since my instructor rating expired, how much training does a new instructor receive from an FTU?
Start at a good 703/4/5 operation and you get training (exceptins noted). How many flight schools require a newly hired instructor to go through any kind of initial training with them including ground training on the schools briefing, etc, and flight training? Or does every instructor show up (still) with their own brand of how to teach?

[trey kule]

Edited.

[Type4]

Sorry with my choice of wording. It does have "some" authority during the initial stages of the roll, but it doesn't come on very linear. Hence I said ease it forward as the airspeed is picking up. Obviously full back pressure during the starting stages of a roll isn't going to help get the nose wheel off the ground a whole lot quicker in the Diamond, but it'll still take a bit of weight off it. As mentioned full back pressure when rotating in the Diamond makes for some rude awakenings.

[trey kule]

rude awakenings!!!

You know I am an old guy. Being at this game for over 40 years. Filled up a few logbooks, and have not bent anything or hurt anyone so far.When I retire I want to instruct.....

And I dont like rude awakenings. If something you are doing is causing them ,perhaps instead of defending the technique that is causing them , you might just want to give some thought to how you coud do it different...Unless of course, flying to you is a about rude awakenings.

I find it hard to understand how peope can post that a certain technique can cause problems and then steadfastly defend it.
Think about it for a moment.. Why is the nose popping up and rudely waking you.....Why because you have to much up elevator. Yet peope here want to defend this technique....quite amazing. Reminds of when little kids get to drive a kiddy car...full extremes on the controls..

[Geo]

edited to stay on topic

[akoch]

I may have lost what it has been discussed here buried under a lot of posts. I own and fly a DA20, and I am not an experienced pilot. All I can say is that it does not go on/off on the elevator when you do the soft field. Yes, you hold the stick fully back initially, but once the nose-wheel starts to come up you gradually release the pressure maintaining the attitude. By the time it is ready to fly you are almost in neutral anyway, and then it flies off... Very easy, and actually intuitive.

[trey kule]

akoch,

Now that makes sense to me, though I have not ever flown the type.
Nothing like some experience and good flying skills to make things go smoothly..
I think there is a lesson in your post that some others would do well to think about.

[Shiny Side Up]

Never understood why people put a t-tail on a prop airplane. We learned back in the 70's it was a bad idea. This is why the Europeans are smarter than us.

In the case of the Diamond aircraft, the T-tail is used for ease of manufacture. If you get a chance go for a tour of the factory, its like walking through a giant snap-together kit.

[Geo]

I own and fly a DA20, and I am not an experienced pilot. All I can say is that it does not go on/off on the elevator when you do the soft field. Yes, you hold the stick fully back initially, but once the nose-wheel starts to come up you gradually release the pressure maintaining the attitude. By the time it is ready to fly you are almost in neutral anyway, and then it flies off... Very easy, and actually intuitive.

I trained in the DA20C1 and had the same experience akoch, its gradual - although for me the first time or two it was startling how quick the nose can come up and the plane can unstick. Now its more as you describe. You're expecting it, you ease off as the nose comes up, and away you go.

One other thing I noticed, since the sight picture can change fairly radically for that plane depending on density altitude and number of people in the plane, it's possible to get up and set what you think is a level attitude for picking up speed in ground effect, and then quickly float up out of it. It all happens pretty fast some days (winter, solo, less than full tanks). Of course, that's a good lesson in itself.

g
(low time PPL)

[trey kule]

so let me see.

Two guys(gals) Akoch and Geo.
Both advise they are low time.
Both post essentially the same thing which makes pretty good sense to me

On the other hand some people post, who are instructors about pop ups, rude awakenings etc, and rather simplisitc, non-thinking techniques.

Seems there is a lesson for some people here to learn about their instructional technique , and overall flying skills.

I have to wonder though Geo. You fly in Canada , right? Lots of soft fields in the winter at minus 30?

And as I write this, I am sure some instructor sort will not see the humor and tell me that snow covered runways are soft fields....they are obstructed fields and you would do well to know the difference.

[Geo]

I have to wonder though Geo. You fly in Canada , right? Lots of soft fields in the winter at minus 30?

I suppose not, but I wouldn't know, CYBW clears its runways pretty well and I have only been on to a grass field once (in a 182 check out). Fun, but hard and dry. Not soft at all, though we used soft field technique anyway (protect the nose wheel, and hey, you've only got a few inches of prop clearance, and this field is full of holes).

Since you mentioned snow... (yes yes, joke. that always made me wonder when practicing forced approaches in winter...which field to pick in an emergency...they're all white?!

(A road? But they often have power lines next to them). One instructor said find one with yellow stubble showing if you can, shouldn't be too deep. Thoughts? (sorry if I'm thread jacking here)

g

[trey kule]

Well, as we are participating in the jacking of this thread...

I have a comment as to which landing place to use.

NOTHING is prohibited...Your job, as PIC, should the situation arise, is to get the plane, your butt, and any Px affiliated butts on the ground with as little damage to any of them as possible.

Never land in a snow covered field next to a six lane divided highway that is deserted because you were told it "might have power lines across it"...that is why they make sure you have good vision.

Use common sense.. why does this touch a button with me....Many moons ago, we would take a new CPL student up to assess where they were in the program. there was an abandoned airfield....perfectly servicable in the training area.. Would posiiton the plane overtop of the airfield and simulate an engine failure...the idea being that they would carry out the full forced landing on to one of the runways..
what did they do...picked a field...When asked after why they did not use the airport...the answer was...i didnt think I could.
It is this mindset that overcomes common sense, and in a real emergency results is some pretty poor decision making occassionally.

Instead learn how to look for unseen power lines....a house on opposite side of the road from the power poles...poles running upto and then starting again on the other side...easier to see than power line.

In any event, I am adding to the digression

[trey kule]

Well, as we are participating in the jacking of this thread...

I have a comment as to which landing place to use.

NOTHING is prohibited...Your job, as PIC, should the situation arise, is to get the plane, your butt, and any Px affiliated butts on the ground with as little damage to any of them as possible.

Never land in a snow covered field next to a six lane divided highway that is deserted because you were told it "might have power lines across it"...that is why they make sure y ou have good vision.

Use common sense.. why does this touch a button with me....Many moons ago, we would take a new CPL student up to assess where they were in the program. there was an abonded airfield....perfectly servicable in the training area.. Would posiiton the plane overtop of the airfield the simulate an engine failure...the idea being that they would carry out the full forced landing on to one of the frunways..
what did they do...picked a field...When asked after why they did not use the airport...the answer was...i didnt think I could.
It is this mindset that overcomes common sense, and in a real emergency results is some pretty poor decision making occassionally.

Instead learn how to look for unseen power lines....a house on opposite side of the road from the power poles...poses running upto and then starting again on the other side...easier to see than power line.

In any event, I am adding to the digression