Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

[nutbutter]

http://www.airliners.net/photo/First-Ai ... 9494c3cc7a



WTF is this?
Is this the switch posted about earlier in the thread?

Panel is from the accident airplane apparently.
Couldn't find a shot of the FMS or the radio stack

By the way, does the Both on 1 or Both on 2 selection indicate that switch has the ability to slave both Pilot and F/O HSI's to Nav 1 or Nav 2?
Is that correct????
Seriously?

[CpnCrunch]

If it was CFIT (and we don't know for sure), that is completely preventable these days with technology like synthetic vision and TAWS. Really there is no need for people to be dying from CFIT if you can spend a few bucks on some 10-year old technology.

Unfortunately some airlines keep having CFIT accidents because they are too cheap to spend the money on the technology to prevent it. I am not saying this is the case with First Air (I have no idea what equipment they have on their planes). I'm just having a general rant about CFIT which may have nothing to do with this accident or First Air. It just pisses me off that these completely preventable fatal accidents keep happening, and pilots and passengers should also be pissed off and do something about it. New planes must have EGPWS installed, but for older planes it's up to the operator.

[hartley]

Nutbutter

I think you now understand how that switch works, and more important is that it should be used with a great deal of caution.

[nutbutter]

Nutbutter

I think you now understand how that switch works, and more important is that it should be used with a great deal of caution.

I could see that switch if turned to the wrong NAV setting would cause both Captain and F/O HSI's to read the VOR instead of the LOC. I have no idea why an airplane would have such a switch though, the reason you have a two crew environment with separate avionics is for redundancy. A single pilot airplane would have use for such a switch, not a two crew airplane.
I have no idea why you would use the switch either.
Also, what's the SOP at First Air? When the G/S is considered U/S on an ILS is it a go-around, or continue with DME/timing/RNAV on the LOC?
Is continuing on the LOC approach using the VOR's DME (can someone look up the VOR and see if it has co-located DME?) and radial information for a MAP what caused this error? Did they ignore the rad alt and GPWS too?

I like the circling scenario too though. Both are pretty good theories.

Edit: why would Boeing install a switch that would give one crew member the ability to override another crew members avionics in a two crew airplane?

[Flying Nutcracker]

The switch is for redundancy, Nutbutter. Lose either Nav and you can bring the remaining Nav up on both sides. Its for non-normal situations.

[nutbutter]

Each side can't track either NAV with the HSI independently to begin with?

[cncpc]

It seems there was a missed approach and then the accident approach.

Where are you getting there was a missed approach ? All accounts so far seem to indicate only 1 approach was flown.

I got it from this post a page back.

I know first-hand that the tower was operational at the time; terminal wasn't, although they were monitoring the frequency, and the Borek 99 was passed off to the tower by them. The tower cleared First Air 6560 to land twice, both when they called 10-mile final and 3-mile final. The 99 did the LOC(BC) because of the wind, but the visibility dropped and they missed, giving no option but to fly the ILS. It had absolutely nothing to do with whether the airspace was controlled.

Ok, now that I've read it, I get your point. Two clearances to land on the same approach. Sorry.

[cncpc]

Give it a rest LIS, the military had very little to do with what was going on that day.

Other than requesting a DME and radial off the VOR. That means tuning the VOR. If it was tuned on No. 2, and the switches were to set both to No. 2 and as the poster above says, they were ten back, the guy flying the ILS may not even notice the flicker. I guess it would all depend on where the OBS was set at the time the switch was made to VOR. If there was auto centering and it was a switch and hit the button kind of thing, not much chance to pick up the error, especially if the autopilot was doing the approach.

I'm not a jet guy, but I don't see why the VOR would have been tuned up until the military asked for the info. We don't even know if they asked First Air though.

If they did, certainly doesn't make it the military's fault.

[Brewguy]

TSB team ends on-site probe of fatal Arctic crash

Nunatsiaq News
September 1, 2011 4:09 PM

RESOLUTE BAY, Nunavut — The Transportation Safety Board has completed the first stage of its investigation into the cause of the Aug. 20 crash of First Air flight 6560 near the Resolute Bay airport that killed 12 and injured three.

Chris Krepski, spokesman for the TSB, said Thursday that the board's team of 23 investigators was on its way back to Ottawa. The TSB investigators expect to take many months to complete their investigation into the crash of the Boeing 737.

Meanwhile, First Air said it has assumed responsibility for the final stages of the crash site remediation and environmental cleanup.

Qater Earth Science Assoc. Ltd., Atco and a local hunters and trappers organization will "assist and consult during the cleanup," First Air said.

The governments of Nunavut and the Northwest Territories and Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada have approved the plan.

Government inspectors are on-site to oversee the process, First Air said.

[Diadem]

Other than requesting a DME and radial off the VOR. That means tuning the VOR. If it was tuned on No. 2, and the switches were to set both to No. 2 and as the poster above says, they were ten back, the guy flying the ILS may not even notice the flicker. I guess it would all depend on where the OBS was set at the time the switch was made to VOR. If there was auto centering and it was a switch and hit the button kind of thing, not much chance to pick up the error, especially if the autopilot was doing the approach.

I'm not a jet guy, but I don't see why the VOR would have been tuned up until the military asked for the info. We don't even know if they asked First Air though.

If they did, certainly doesn't make it the military's fault.

The ILS has an associated DME, and once they were on the localizer there would have been no reason to request their bearing to the station, so I can't see why they would need to switch to the VOR. The controller didn't request their positions 10 back, they simply reported it and were given landing clearance.

[cncpc]

Other than requesting a DME and radial off the VOR. That means tuning the VOR. If it was tuned on No. 2, and the switches were to set both to No. 2 and as the poster above says, they were ten back, the guy flying the ILS may not even notice the flicker. I guess it would all depend on where the OBS was set at the time the switch was made to VOR. If there was auto centering and it was a switch and hit the button kind of thing, not much chance to pick up the error, especially if the autopilot was doing the approach.

I'm not a jet guy, but I don't see why the VOR would have been tuned up until the military asked for the info. We don't even know if they asked First Air though.

If they did, certainly doesn't make it the military's fault.

The ILS has an associated DME, and once they were on the localizer there would have been no reason to request their bearing to the station, so I can't see why they would need to switch to the VOR. The controller didn't request their positions 10 back, they simply reported it and were given landing clearance.

Ok. Thanks.

Did they ever report the GS U/S?

[onspeed]

The circling theory does not make sense. An experienced crew that had been there many times before would never circle to that side, or circle in general in CYRB. There is no need for it with good approaches to either runway.

[Diadem]

Did they ever report the GS U/S?

Not that I heard. I flew the ILS to minima after them without a glitch, as did the other aircraft that landed subsequently. It was NOTAMed U/S as a precaution in case it was a contributing factor, but after testing it was found functional.

[FICU]

As mentioned, the transfer switch is for non-normal situations only. What some of you are missing is that most FMS systems will provide radial/distance from a VOR so tuning it up with VHF Nav radios is not required. Does First Air have this FMS capability... I would think they do.

[fbcs]

As mentioned, the transfer switch is for non-normal situations only. What some of you are missing is that most FMS systems will provide radial/distance from a VOR so tuning it up with VHF Nav radios is not required. Does First Air have this FMS capability... I would think they do.

Yes, they do.

[nutbutter]

The circling theory does not make sense. An experienced crew that had been there many times before would never circle to that side, or circle in general in CYRB. There is no need for it with good approaches to either runway.

Something happened, and the VOR scenario doesn't make much sense either.
Both seem the most likely culprits at this point given the evidence at hand.

[fbcs]

The circling theory does not make sense. An experienced crew that had been there many times before would never circle to that side, or circle in general in CYRB. There is no need for it with good approaches to either runway.

Something happened, and the VOR scenario doesn't make much sense either.
Both seem the most likely culprits at this point given the evidence at hand.

Had they been circling, which is extremely unlikely, they would have been at circling minimums- which would have kept them well clear of any terrain.

[nutbutter]

The circling theory does not make sense. An experienced crew that had been there many times before would never circle to that side, or circle in general in CYRB. There is no need for it with good approaches to either runway.

Something happened, and the VOR scenario doesn't make much sense either.
Both seem the most likely culprits at this point given the evidence at hand.

Had they been circling, which is extremely unlikely, they would have been at circling minimums- which would have kept them well clear of any terrain.

by what a whopping 300ft or so with a ragged ceiling and fog in the vicinity that they might not have known about? What could possibly go wrong?
I guess when you're a super pilot things like spatial disorientation don't affect you. What's that illusion where you increase power when IMC as if in a go around, and you think the airplane pitches up so you push forward on the column again?
I wish I was a super pilot too

[BEFAN5]

From high to low lookout below?

[1&2SpooledUp]

I'm sure they would have the AutoPilot coupled for the approach and I bet thay have an SOP stating thay have to have it coupled for a circling to prevent those illusions!

[_vti]

@ Nutbutter

Those failsafe systems are standard even in the new NG aircraft...nothing to be alarmed about.

[2R]

Did they find the black boxes ?

[Changes in Latitudes]

Did they find the black boxes ?

Yes.

[CD]

Did they find the black boxes ?

Yes... Information available from the TSB: First Air Accident, Resolute Bay, Nunavut, 20 August 2011 - A11H0002

[pelmet]

Is it true that the military was asking them several times for radial and DME information during descent. Could explain how the VOR could be tuned and perhaps quite late into their arrival. Maybe even after a checklist calls for whether your radios are set.