Battle lines being drawn over YHC Seaplane Terminal

[Panama Jack]

There are different ways of analysing this fare increase. And I understand and appreciate why Harbour Air is fighting so hard against it.

1) Harbour Air is, essentially, a low-fares airline. Take a look at the fares they charge including their frequent seat sales and we are looking at practices that more closely resemble scheduled airlines rather than a float plane operator.

2) Their one-way super-saver fare between Vancouver and Nanaimo is advertised at $70.05. In addition to this, passengers presently pay $0.40 carbon offset, $3.00 fuel surcharge, $1.65 Port Fee and $8.41 HST. A $12 charge increases the fare by a whopping 17% and represents a facility fee increase of 627%!!!

3) The present one-way fare on BC Ferries from Vancouver's Horseshoe Bay to Nanaimo's Departure Bay is $14.25. There is a $0.15 Nanaimo Port Authority fee that applies. The proposed fee for the new Seaplane Terminal in itself already represents 85% of the fare of taking the Ferry to the Island. This increase in fare will undoubtably affect a certain amount of more "elastic" passengers (like North Shore) into opting to sail instead of fly. The decrease in load factor could make certain flights unprofitable and therefore also mean that the schedule gets reduced (less frequency).

4) Most passengers don't particularly care about the quality of a terminal to the extent that they are willing to pay 17% of the fare on being able to sit for 10 minutes to 1 hour in some palacial building. But because airport facilities typically have a monopoly on service to a city, consumers cannot switch to other options as easily as between airlines.

I therefore understand why Harbour Air is fighting so hard against this increase. It threatens the business model and the profitability of the airline and any logical business would similarly fight tooth and nail.

[Apollo]

^ +1

[Panama Jack]

Again, society's view of the aviation industry:




Forget starting an airline. Anybody wanna start an airport with me?

[viccoastdog]

While all true about the excessive price charged by VHFC and the unnecessary facilities present at the new terminal, one should not be blind to the fact that Harbour Air is trying to protect what is essentially a monopoly in Vancouver Harbour - no one else gets to use the Harbour Air/WestCoast Air docks.

[zero]

You should educate yourself before making a statement like that 'viccoastdog'. There are other airlines using the HA/WCA dock in YHC while at least three other airlines use the dock at the Westin Bayshore just down the road in Coal Harbour. Passengers do have a choice.

[beaverbob]

While the terminal cost of $12.00 per passenger may seem steep, this price also includes all rent, power and docking space for the airline using the docks. Two airlines have actually signed on and are operating from the YHC seaplane terminal for a Whopping $9.50 per passenger.
Hmmmmmm.

Bob

[viccoastdog]

You should educate yourself before making a statement like that 'viccoastdog'.

Whistler Air uses the HA/WCA docks, and has for a number of years. But that's it - no one else can use it. As for the Westin Bayshore, it barely fits one plane, so can hardly be considered a viable option. Until the advent of the VHFC (however flawed it might be) there has been no real choice for passengers, and certainly none for other companies.

[viccoastdog]

One other thing that isn't mentioned is fuel: HA/WCA have their own fuel tanks at their current temporary facility. At the VHFC it would seem they would be buying fuel from the VHFC, and I'm pretty sure that the price VHFC would charge HA (or anyone else for that matter) would include a mark up.

[Apollo]

I heard they still have no fuel at VHFC due to their little whoopsie leaving water in the lines?

[180]

You should educate yourself before making a statement like that 'viccoastdog'.

Whistler Air uses the HA/WCA docks, and has for a number of years. But that's it - no one else can use it. As for the Westin Bayshore, it barely fits one plane, so can hardly be considered a viable option. Until the advent of the VHFC (however flawed it might be) there has been no real choice for passengers, and certainly none for other companies.

I've seen Kenmore Air machines on the docks a bunch of times. Telus' machines too.

The Westin Bayshores' dock is tight, but it does fit an Otter...

So I guess that puts the count up to 3.

[crazy_aviator]

Basically 2 reasons for that plane to sink, 1- damage to the floats causing a leak, 2 - the floats were not leak-proof PERIOD !

[I_Heart_Seaplanes]

no one else gets to use the Harbour Air/WestCoast Air docks.

Whistler Air, and Kenmore Air regularly use the HA/WCA docks. SeaAir and Tofino Air were offered space at the HA/WCA dock but decided to jump ship.

Who in their right mind leaves a floatplane loaded to gross weight tied to a dock all night in an area with heavy boat traffic!

That a/c sat at the WCA dock for 3 days and 2 nights loaded to gross weight with NO problems. The effect of the heavy boat traffic and damage due to swells was the point of the test. I'd say they got some pretty good data.

As for the "monopoly"... How can you fault a guy for foreseeing demand for a service, and capitalizing on it?

[Indanao]

Doesn't really say much about why a floatplane sinks at the Dock on that thread.

I know when I was flying at Pickle Lake the Owner/Engineer was emphatic the aircraft
be tied with ropes at 90 degrees to the floats with three ropes snug the dock.

However, when I flew off Lake Superior by Ross Point that lake was so big it had it's own
tides. When a storm came, we tied it offshore and hope it stayed there till morning.

[viccoastdog]

To say Kenmore Air uses the HA dock regularly is a gross exaggeration - they have no sked service to YHC I would be surprised if they're there very often. As for Tofino Air and Seair being offered space prior to "jumping ship", why were they not offered space before this debacle in which HA was the leading light in the VCFOA? They have both been trying to operate from YHC for sometime prior to VHFC but with no access to docks! The timing is a bit self-serving for HA.

I know first hand that one cannot gain access for commercial floatplane to use HA/WCA docks. It doesn't even get to the point of discussing price or insurance requirements. And we don't even need to go into other operators such as Salt Spring Air, Corilair and on and on ad nauseam who have to use the one tiny dock at Westin Bayshore to see that the policy of HA is to protect a monopoly granted by a temporary facility that they would like to see made permanent. This maybe all well and good if it was HA land that the facilities are on, but seeing as how that's not the case, and the use granted to them is supposedly temporary, why do they persist in maintaining such a monopoly?

[viccoastdog]

You should educate yourself before making a statement like that 'viccoastdog'.

So I guess that puts the count up to 3.

Telus isn't a commercial seaplane airline. They don't even have an Private Operators Certificate for their floatplanes, so, no, they don't count.

At best, there's Whistler Air and Kenmore Air (when they have a charter to YHC, and are hardly competition for HA, since their flights would by necessity need to go to/from the USA!), and that's it. There are many, many other operators who have, until now, been effectively shut out of YHC due to lack of access to dock space. HA/WCA's dock space is tied to a section of land that is not owned by the operator. Does it not strike anyone as just a wee bit odd that HA/WCA should exclude any other operator from the docks that have been given a TEMPORARY home in Vancouver until the VHFC was completed, other than they were protecting a monopoly?

[High and Behind]

HA persists in it's pursuit of a monopoly because it can.
Period.
The only other operator EVER allowed on there docks are those that they have reciprocal agreements with. RE Whistler Air.
When they first moved to YWH they had to share a dock with the owner of that facility. After time went by they struck a deal to purchase the entire dock and terminal facility and charter service to boot. 6 zeros were on the end of that cheque if I'm not mistaken.
Prior to 1995 they used the old Pier C in CXH. When that was insufficient to service the demand for Twin Otters, Turbo Otters and Beavers they went to Marathon Corp (The property owners of the old BC Ferries terminals) with a proposal for tenancy on there grounds. That property is now the one that is so strongly contested.

The main contention is that the development of that land was approved by the Province which meant eviction of HA. They then had to contest that they are a tenant with a viable business plan for that property (other than the old boat houses that used to be there) That is a significant contribution to the economy of Vancouver and Victoria. The land has over the last 17 years changed hands several times, and was once held by the province, who (when the first relocation effort for developing the sea wall was made in 2003 I think) when the detractors of seaplanes in the harbour tried to get rid of them for good, declared HA an essential service.

Greg MacDougall has over the years proved to be a very intelligent business man who buys when everyone else is selling. Expands when everyone else is tightening there belts, and is aligned very well within the community. The press that you are seeing on this is no doubt generated by HA to bring public opposition to this increase in fares and will put pressure on the lease holder to commit to the original agreement.

I'm quite sure I'm forgeting some of the details of the last 17 years but that is the gist of what I remember.

[viccoastdog]

Thanks for an insightful and educational post "High and Behind". One comment and question though, was it HA who was deemed an 'essential service' or commercial floatplanes in CXH (ie, not limited to one operator)?

[Bulawrench]

All another sharaid to derail the new facility. It has been used by other operators for seven months now?

[The Mole]

Just for cost comparison, the heli-port beside the sea-bus terminal is a $65.00 landing fee. Parking is on top of that. Overnight is very expensive. But it is public.

[FriendlyBear]

In reference to Apollo's post on the previous page:
When I used to fly UTW, I was always told if she sinks and takes the entire dock with her then no problem; if she get blown away and the floats are still moored to the dock then no problem... I don't understand how somebody didn't see this happening..... that rear cleat better have been torn off with the mooring line still attached.... this is almost as nuts as leaving a blade down while mooring at a bouy.... but then again, I saw how high speed boat traffic can swamp out a dock....
I hope they get her flying again soon!
FB

[viccoastdog]

Just for cost comparison, the heli-port beside the sea-bus terminal is a $65.00 landing fee. Parking is on top of that. Overnight is very expensive. But it is public.

For charter floatplanes, VHFC's dock fee is $175.00. that gets you one hour of mooring. Extra hours of mooring are $50.00 per hour to a maximum of $400.00 for 24 hours. Plus there is a requirement for expensive insurance. Makes the heliport look like a bargain!

[1prop2floats]

Kenmore uses H/A's dock very infrequently. Telus, when it was BC tel had a policy of not using the harbour, that's probably changed now. Seair was offered the use of H/A's downtown docks but initially H/A dictated what their schedule would be. When it looked like Seair would sign with the VHFC, H/A changed the terms. Someone at Harbour Air is going to have trouble renewing their MENSA membership after leaving a loaded Otter at any dock! Saltspring Air has arranged it so that an operator has to phone them to use the Westin Bayshore dock and that dock only accommodates 1 Floatplane of any make or model!

[High and Behind]

Thanks for an insightful and educational post "High and Behind". One comment and question though, was it HA who was deemed an 'essential service' or commercial floatplanes in CXH (ie, not limited to one operator)?

Your right it was commercial float plane service.

And I wouldn't call this derailing the use of the new terminal. Over the years HA and WCA have had to endure several landlord and location changes that has cost them millions of dollars out of there own pocket to move docks, buildings, mechanical services (electrical, plumbing) all while trying to maintain a high level of service that is very much in demand. At one point the terninal had to be moved so HA was flying into the River at YVR and shiping passengers by bus downtown. WCA was using the dock at the Bayshore and were at time left to sit out in the water for up to 45 minutes waiting for an airplane to move so they could dock.
They are just taking a stand as to never ending cost of use charges that get made up at a whim at times. Lets face it if it wasn't for HA there would be no docks down there for float planes.

So the stance that they are probably taking is that they have had to endure enough of the finnancial and operational burdon of the continued construction downtown that they shouldn't have an increase in the docking fees.

As for the Turbo Otter sinking at the dock, you can bet that this was done (yes on purpose) to prove the ill advised placement of docks that will be vulnerable to seabus, tug boat and ship swell. Dock locations has always been a source of contention due to the underwater surveys that determin lease boundries. The powers that be also apply boat logic to the seaplanes not realizing that operating a float plane at a dock is nothing like a boat.

The issues in the Harbour have been never ending. And we haven't even gotten into the nut bars complaining about the noise.

[viccoastdog]

Lets face it if it wasn't for HA there would be no docks down there for float planes.

That is probably very true.

Saltspring Air has arranged it so that an operator has to phone them to use the Westin Bayshore dock and that dock only accommodates 1 Floatplane of any make or model!

And phoning ahead of time doesn't mean there won't already be another plane at the dock with no pilot around to move it off the dock. And it costs $125 for the privilege this year!

[High and Behind]

Saltspring Air is not only a user of the Bayshore dock they are also a tennant, with a retail outlet in the hotel. Or they were at one time if not now.

viccoastdog I'm betting that we either know or know of eachother.
Are you a WCA or HA guy? I worked at HA for 7 years