Sky Regional

[upandcomer]

Anyone comment on what it's like to work for this airline? What is the pay like? Is it a good company?

[Big Pistons Forever]

"up and comer" pilots are proactive and use all available aids to get info they require, like "search" functions.

[Cat Driver]

Welcome to Avcanada upandcomer, I can't give you any info on Sky Regional but someone will I am sure.

I seldom post here anymore because there are to many a..holes that would rather put you down rather than help you,

Anyhow I am sure someone will answer your questions.

. ..

[TeePeeCreeper]

Dear BPF,

You contribute much to these forums, and I've always respected your views and perspective although haven't always agreed with them. Trust me, I know what it's like to read yet another question/post which has already been asked before and could be found via the search function... Be it as it may, perhaps we should all give a new comer a bit of leeway?
Your last comment is unbecoming of a poster who has contributed much to these forums.
Common mate, you were new to this site at one point or another right? Cut the new brethren some slack won't ya? No disrespect intended, just saying.....

Regards,
TPC

[BBDriver]

Other than Challenges with the pay scale, The people there are TOP NOTCH, very positive. Definate growth potential!!

Did you get an interview??

[avagator]

"Definate growth potential!!" Where? There aren't any slots left on the island. Is Sky Regional going to go to Pearson and take flying away from Jazz? That is top notch. I really hope this college of pilots gets momentum. I mean in the same paragraph you mention challenges with payscales and then huge growth potential. The growth will be at the expense of higher paying jobs with better work rules and pensions.

[The Hammer]

Pensions, working conditions, and good pay are overrated

Why don't we just farm it out to pilots from central america or asia who will do it for even less and get this ride to the bottom over with.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I seldom post here anymore because there are to many a..holes that would rather put you down rather than help you,

Not to worry I have been called worse by better men than you

But you are right in retrospect it was an A..holeish post on my part and in any case unnecessary as these kinds of open ended questions done by somebody too lazy to do 30 seconds worth of searching usually just die on their own or veer off into some entertaining rants. Either way the question won't get answered.

However those who post something like " I noticed that the latest post on operator XXX hiring was 7 months ago and said that interviews were under way. Does it look like a new round of hiring is going to start anytime soon? " tend to get actual informative answers by people in the know.

But this post has got me thinking. If we were to group posts in the "general" section of avcanada by like topics I bet the biggest group would be posts that ask about the terms and conditions of employment. Perhaps it is time to start a separate forum as a subset of the employment forum that is specifically for those who want information on working conditions and pay and benefits.

[CanadianEh]

Pensions, working conditions, and good pay are overrated

Why don't we just farm it out to pilots from central america or asia who will do it for even less and get this ride to the bottom over with.

Errrm, I'm pretty sure our North American pilots are the ones heading abroad (such as Asia) to get better paying jobs...

Just saying.

[Apache64_]

Pay is about 50k for fo's and about 70k for Capt's. No idea what the company is like. They are forecasting more aircraft in the new year. CP seems like a decent guy.

[Localizer]

Save yourself the pain and suffering .. Sky Regional is nothing more then a burial ground .. its where old Air Canada pilots that don't know how to retire go to die. The operation is in violation of the ACPA scope clause and is currently in the grievance process.

If you enjoy low pay, sub-par benefits and sitting second fiddle to a guy high above your perch then enjoy!

[yycflyguy]

Save yourself the pain and suffering .. Sky Regional is nothing more then a burial ground .. its where old Air Canada pilots that don't know how to retire go to die. The operation is in violation of the ACPA scope clause and is currently in the grievance process.

If you enjoy low pay, sub-par benefits and sitting second fiddle to a guy high above your perch then enjoy!

... or you could use it to familiarize yourself with AC operations, fly a great airplane and then catch the current hiring wave at mainline like many have already.

[TopperHarley]

Save yourself the pain and suffering .. Sky Regional is nothing more then a burial ground .. its where old Air Canada pilots that don't know how to retire go to die. The operation is in violation of the ACPA scope clause and is currently in the grievance process.

If you enjoy low pay, sub-par benefits and sitting second fiddle to a guy high above your perch then enjoy!

... or you could use it to familiarize yourself with AC operations, fly a great airplane and then catch the current hiring wave at mainline like many have already.

That's going down a slippery slope. For one, it's not fair to the pilots who are there for the long-haul, as you won't be motivated to help change & improve the working conditions. And second of all, if all pilots went there with those kinds of intentions then SKY would probably be pretty quick to set up some sort of training bond.

[yycflyguy]

Save yourself the pain and suffering .. Sky Regional is nothing more then a burial ground .. its where old Air Canada pilots that don't know how to retire go to die. The operation is in violation of the ACPA scope clause and is currently in the grievance process.

If you enjoy low pay, sub-par benefits and sitting second fiddle to a guy high above your perch then enjoy!

... or you could use it to familiarize yourself with AC operations, fly a great airplane and then catch the current hiring wave at mainline like many have already.

That's going down a slippery slope. For one, it's not fair to the pilots who are there for the long-haul, as you won't be motivated to help change & improve the working conditions. And second of all, if all pilots went there with those kinds of intentions then SKY would probably be pretty quick to set up some sort of training bond.

How is Skyregional any different than what Jazz is for Westjet/AC? At Westjet they call Jazz "the academy"! Skyregional is limited to the amount and type of flying it can do. Not exactly Porter ambitions. It's creation was to place pressure on Porter market share and to possibly put pressure on the Jazz CPA as AC's tier II provider.

As far as a bond. I didn't know Michel Leblanc was involved.

[TopperHarley]

The working conditions at JZ are better compared to SKY's. You could make a decent career at JZ. Im sure there are some older pilots at SKY who are hoping to make a career where they are. The point I was trying to make is that if you go to SKY for the sole purpose of using them, there won't be any motivation on your part to try and make it a better place.

Kind of like someone accepting a job at AC now and saying "I dont care if the LCC gets voted in, I just want to fly a 320 or 767."

Nothing against SKY or against the pilots there.

[yycflyguy]

Personally, I have had several jobs where both the company and the pilot know that it is a stepping stone. The company mitigates this effect by keeping wages low to offset the training costs of the revolving door of pilots. The pilots I worked with at these types of companies still tried to make it a better place than when they arrived. I guess that's why professionalism is such a big buzzword. It can be a symbiotic relationship with both sides knowing it will be a relationship that does not last long.

With SR, I can't see how management could not understand that only doing YYZ-YUL-YYZ flights is not exactly expanding the horizons of cabin and flight crews. It's still a great job on a great airplane... for a limited time.

Kind of like someone accepting a job at AC now and saying "I dont care if the LCC gets voted in, I just want to fly a 320 or 767."

I fail to see the connection to your argument... but for the record, we have guys that think that way and are ALREADY on the AC property!! There will always be that demographic that only looks out for themselves to the detriment of the group.

[Localizer]

Wow .. yycflyguy .. I guess I pegged you wrong. I sorta had the impression that you thought of the industry as a whole .. not just looking out your own window. Now I see your concern regarding the age 60 issue is only on your radar because of how it affects you personally and not how it will affect the industry.

SR affects this industry .. JZ pilots have come together from 4 different airlines to make the regional side of aviation attractive as a career. You, as a voting member of your organization have the ablity to stop the spiral dive, AC propaganda about the JZ CPA and its "high cost" have you putting targets on the wrong people .. yikes! That's called taking the bait! You nor I will ever really know what goes on at the top levels of AC/Jazz management .. so quit playing there games and start banding with fellow aviators to stop the bleeding.

Personally .. I'd like to see the SR pilots and aircraft added to Jazz (of course date of hire would apply as per ALPA policy) win-win situation .. I'm sure they'd enjoy the pay uplift, benefits and pension.

... or you could use it to familiarize yourself with AC operations, fly a great airplane and then catch the current hiring wave at mainline like many have already.

As a note .. not all pilots in Canada want to work at Air Canada, they shouldn't be penalized financially because of that.

Cheers.

[yycflyguy]

Wow .. yycflyguy .. I guess I pegged you wrong. I sorta had the impression that you thought of the industry as a whole .. not just looking out your own window. Now I see your concern regarding the age 60 issue is only on your radar because of how it affects you personally and not how it will affect the industry.

SR affects this industry .. JZ pilots have come together from 4 different airlines to make the regional side of aviation attractive as a career. You, as a voting member of your organization have the ablity to stop the spiral dive, AC propaganda about the JZ CPA and its "high cost" have you putting targets on the wrong people .. yikes! That's called taking the bait! You nor I will ever really know what goes on at the top levels of AC/Jazz management .. so quit playing there games and start banding with fellow aviators to stop the bleeding.

Personally .. I'd like to see the SR pilots and aircraft added to Jazz (of course date of hire would apply as per ALPA policy) win-win situation .. I'm sure they'd enjoy the pay uplift, benefits and pension.

... or you could use it to familiarize yourself with AC operations, fly a great airplane and then catch the current hiring wave at mainline like many have already.

As a note .. not all pilots in Canada want to work at Air Canada, they shouldn't be penalized financially because of that.

Cheers.

You are mistaken. You should not confuse my view with using some companies as stepping stones to bigger and better things with my flypast60 opinion. You made a pretty big leap of faith combining the two opinions! Flypast60 is an entirely separate can o worms. You also know that I support the idea of the College of Professional Pilots.

SR is not the national player that you make it out to be. Their creation (which I adamantly opposed, and still do) was on the basis of a "let" awarded by the AC MEC of the day. That error in judgement led to the recalls and a TA that was not ratified by the ACPA membership. I would like to think that I was instrumental (at least contributed) in its defeat as was the TA that would have been detrimental to ALL Canadian pilots for various reasons.

You nor I will ever really know what goes on at the top levels of AC/Jazz management .. so quit playing there games and start banding with fellow aviators to stop the bleeding.

Agreed. However there is no intent of games being played on my side. Someone was curious to WAWCON at SR and why someone should go there. I hate to break it to you but it IS a stepping stone airline. Some may want to go there for a career and good on 'em but let me ask you this. Will SR still exist in its present form in 2 years from today?

FWIW, I fully realize that not all pilots want to go to AC. I don't blame them. It is not Utopia. In fact, if someone were to ask me where they should apply worldwide, AC wouldn't be in the top 5. AC is currently hiring from SR, Jazz, Georgian, CMA and OTS but it's not like Canadian pilots have dozens of options for their airline career.

If the Jazz CPA is not as onerous as you feel, why is it that AC management is trying to slither their way out from under it? I am sure you would agree that the Jazz Income Trust extracted a lot of capital from the mainline operation. It made a few people buckets of money but the average driver like me were left out of the "unlocking value" initiative.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-in ... le2229653/
http://business.financialpost.com/2011/ ... -dividend/

While you brought it up, I am curious to hear why you think that SR pilots should be on an ALPA seniority list and not an ACPA seniority list.

[one8tee]

First of all Jazz's income trust hasnt funelled money away from AC mainline. It simply has lower costs than mainline because of low overhead, low training costs (status pay) and no legacy type costs left over from the days of being a CC. the company uses that to pay dividends to increase the stock price. Which made ACE a lot of money.. before it sold it.

How about all 3 on one list/ one union? yycflyguy you have to remember that if AC allows SR to continue, it starts a slippery slope. I think what Loc is suggesting is it may be worth some mainline negotiating power to negotiate that sky regional come in under Jazz or Mainline.

I would go so far to say that if ACPA could negotiate that mainline agrees to only hire from its tier two airlines, it would pave the way for some form of a single union/ single list that could basically begin the college of professional pilots idea in Canada. The difficult part is the short term pain of using today's negotiating power to help the whole group instead of our narrow views and short sightedness we, as pilots have taken in the past.

This isn't rocket science.. it's time we all grow up and stand up for ourselves and our profession as a group.

Cheers,

180

[yycflyguy]

First of all Jazz's income trust hasnt funelled money away from AC mainline. It simply has lower costs than mainline because of low overhead, low training costs (status pay) and no legacy type costs left over from the days of being a CC. the company uses that to pay dividends to increase the stock price. Which made ACE a lot of money.. before it sold it.

How about all 3 on one list/ one union? yycflyguy you have to remember that if AC allows SR to continue, it starts a slippery slope. I think what Loc is suggesting is it may be worth some mainline negotiating power to negotiate that sky regional come in under Jazz or Mainline.

I would go so far to say that if ACPA could negotiate that mainline agrees to only hire from its tier two airlines, it would pave the way for some form of a single union/ single list that could basically begin the college of professional pilots idea in Canada. The difficult part is the short term pain of using today's negotiating power to help the whole group instead of our narrow views and short sightedness we, as pilots have taken in the past.

This isn't rocket science.. it's time we all grow up and stand up for ourselves and our profession as a group.

Cheers,

180

I wont debate how mainline subsidizes the Jazz operation. Let's just disagree on that.

As Loc pointed out, the SR operation IS being grieved by ACPA. It should never have been allowed to start in the first place. An enormous error that our MEC of the day allowed a "let" that expired months ago. My advice in this thread was for someone to take the opportunity with SR, but it is not a career position. Great plane, great experience but SR will not be recognizable in a couple of years. SR was created for a cut-throat purpose of stressing Porter out of the Island and to create the possibility of whipsawing future flying between 3 pilot groups. I know it, ACPA knows it. Just trying to get the toothpaste back in the tube now.

I agree 100% that the pilots at SR should be put on the ACPA seniority list but to say that mainline should only be limited to hiring from one group or the other is not the idea of the College. For the college to work it has to be national. Jazz, WJ, SR, CJ & AC all have to be onboard. Maybe one day.

Unfortunately we tried the "all in one union". CALPA, the predecessor to ACPA. AC left because they did not have enough political power although they had the most number of members. They left, formed ACPA, and have been the bastard children of Canadian aviation since.

This isn't rocket science.. it's time we all grow up and stand up for ourselves and our profession as a group.

Amen brother.

[Localizer]

Yycflyguy, fair enough .. I do know you are opposed to SR, and that it was the MEC of yesterday and not today that allowed the let.

The CPA was created by those same slithering snakes that are trying to get out of it. If it was such a raw deal for AC, then why did they create such a lucrative CPA? There are a lot of ways for AC to make a lot of money off the Jazz CPA, and I honestly believe they are making bags of it .. they just don't want you to know it, or share it with you. The CPA is available to Chorus investors and if you have a look you'll see what I mean. I'm sure the SR CPA will have similar kick backs to AC.

As for ALPA/ACPA seniority list .. either way .. It doesn't matter where they go, I figured Jazz since SR operates regional aircraft. All that matters is having someone help get there WAWCON more in-line with the rest of us.

I do believe the younger generation of pilots at AC/Jazz will be able to come to terms and gain leverage in this industry .. unfortuately we'll have to wait for all the big (old) kids to retire (from both companies).

Cheers.

[teacher]

Sorry "yycflyguy" you knew I wouldn't be able to resist

I wont debate how mainline subsidizes the Jazz operation. Let's just disagree on that.

You're right, it's been debated way too many times how much Jazz and the CPA pad ACs books with lower operating costs, aircraft leases, Air Canada Ground Handling and other services.

If the Jazz CPA is not as onerous as you feel, why is it that AC management is trying to slither their way out from under it?

The same reason they are trying to keep YOUR wages down, reduce pensions and attempt another LCC. They'll do whatever they can to make a short term dollar as none of them will be around to face the consequences. Just take a look at the American regional system and ask yourself if that's where we want to go.

I am sure you would agree that the Jazz Income Trust extracted a lot of capital from the mainline operation.

I am sure you'll also agree that AC has made massive profits through the Jazz CPA and also took 4 expansive airlines reducing them to nothing but 1 feeder airline pulling out of very profitable routes on both coasts and the Toronto City Centre Airport among others and continues to try to this day to prevent Jazz from expanding beyond it's contract.

While you brought it up, I am curious to hear why you think that SR pilots should be on an ALPA seniority list and not an ACPA seniority list.

Because ALPA is the largest pilot union in the world with the greatest resources to support our profession and divisions within our ranks have been and will continue to be exploited time and time again. There should only be 1 pilot union working for all of us not many working for the interests of a few.

It's creation was to place pressure on Porter market share and to possibly put pressure on the Jazz CPA as AC's tier II provider.

Not to mention lowering the tier II wage scales to place pressure on mainline pilots to accept reduced raises or none at all. You'll only ever make as much as a percentage of the people below you. Ask your FAs. Kinda hard to argue for a raise when you're the highest paid in your peer group. If the floor is lowered you go down with it.

[mbav8r]

yycflyguy wrote:
Personally, I have had several jobs where both the company and the pilot know that it is a stepping stone. The company mitigates this effect by keeping wages low to offset the training costs of the revolving door of pilots.

Minus the "revovlving door of pilots" portion, how is this different than what AC does? Do you think the first 2-3 years wage isn't off setting the intial cost of training at AC?

[yycflyguy]

Teacher;

I guess I have to split up your post too!

The same reason they are trying to keep YOUR wages down, reduce pensions and attempt another LCC. They'll do whatever they can to make a short term dollar as none of them will be around to face the consequences. Just take a look at the American regional system and ask yourself if that's where we want to go.

Agreed with management looking to make a short term dollar and looking to drive down our wages. NO, I don't want the US regional system style in Canada. Colgan Air is a classic example of how the all mighty $ trumps safety.

Because ALPA is the largest pilot union in the world with the greatest resources to support our profession and divisions within our ranks have been and will continue to be exploited time and time again. There should only be 1 pilot union working for all of us not many working for the interests of a few.

Bigger don't mean better. See CALPA. Politics get in the way far too often. Also see my opinion of the Canadian College of Professional Pilots. CCPP might end up just being another political body but we have to try to remedy the problems of national seniority and whipsawing.

Not to mention lowering the tier II wage scales to place pressure on mainline pilots to accept reduced raises or none at all. You'll only ever make as much as a percentage of the people below you. Ask your FAs. Kinda hard to argue for a raise when you're the highest paid in your peer group. If the floor is lowered you go down with it.

Not sure I follow. ACPA pay scales, in their purest form, are based on aircraft weight, speed and payload capabilities. If we can get ALL our planes back on that formula it would benefit everyone. Even our direct domestic competitor Westjet as AC is a comparator group that they use to determine their payscale.

Group hug time?

[yycflyguy]

yycflyguy wrote:
Personally, I have had several jobs where both the company and the pilot know that it is a stepping stone. The company mitigates this effect by keeping wages low to offset the training costs of the revolving door of pilots.

Minus the "revovlving door of pilots" portion, how is this different than what AC does? Do you think the first 2-3 years wage isn't off setting the intial cost of training at AC?

I guess the difference is that AC negotiates with a union and most small companies negotiate directly with each pilot.

The low pay for the first two years is the responsibility of ACPA. The company doesn't care how the They negotiated low pay for new hires to inflate other positions and also under the argument that "they had to do it, so do you" antiquated philosophy. We dodged a bullet with the last TA as it was proposed that flat pay be raised (slightly) but extended to 4 years. Simple math should that a pilot after 4 years would have earned less in real dollars than the flawed system we currently have.

At this level of aviation, it is bullshit to claim that someone with 10 years in the industry with 1000's of hours of experience and an educated background should be subjected to lower wages to offset their training. I hope we are trying to rectify it this time around.