Grounding Foreign Pilots

[gonnabeapilot]

Interesting article in the Ottawa Citizen about the use of Foreign Pilots by Canadian charter airlines. It's good to see some press coverage about the issue... hopefully it'll bring about some changes to make sure that any foreign worker program is 100% reciprocal....

Charters should ground use of temporary foreign workers: Pilots association
By Andrew Duffy, Postmedia News January 5, 2012 7:08 PM

OTTAWA — An Ottawa-based pilots association wants the federal government to ground charter airlines' use of temporary foreign workers to fly Canadians south in the winter.
The Temporary Foreign Worker Program allows more than 20,000 babysitters and nannies into Canada every year, along with thousands more cooks, farm workers, musicians, performers, cleaners and truck drivers. It is also used to bring in a smaller number of doctors and IT specialists.

The program is designed to address key shortages in the Canadian labour market.

But Capt. Dan Adamus, president of the Canada board of the Air Line Pilots Association, said the program is being used by Sunwing and CanJet to bring in foreigners when Canadian pilots could be trained to do the same jobs....

Full article:
http://www.canada.com/Charters+should+g ... story.html

[BingBong]

damn straight. Canadians come first amigos

[YYZatcboy]

So would it be better to hire Canadian pilots for 6 months and then lay them all off? I am not trying to be sarcastic here, but since that flying work is so seasonal what other solution is there? Should pilots then be expected to come with their NG rating too? I can't imagine it's economical to do all that training for the 6 months of flying that there is...

[aileron]

So would it be better to hire Canadian pilots for 6 months and then lay them all off? I am not trying to be sarcastic here, but since that flying work is so seasonal what other solution is there? Should pilots then be expected to come with their NG rating too? I can't imagine it's economical to do all that training for the 6 months of flying that there is...

Yes they should hire Canadian, and I would say they should base their business plan on doing so.

[teacher]

As long as there is a reciprical agreement on a 1 to 1 basis where as an equal number of Canadian pilots go overseas as forgeign pilots come here I'm OK with it. Better to be employed paying taxes year round than on EI 6 months out of the year. The problem I have is when there is no recip agreement or more foreign pilots work here than Canadian overseas with said company.

[sluggo]

The concept of using foreign pilots is being abused by these companies in order to create a niche for themselves in our market. Canada doesn't need foreign pilots. What's so impossible with doing enough outsourcing to provide more steady work for your employees year round? Ranstrat does it...

[RogerCheckCopy]

I am ok with the 1 for 1 as well. We all know what most pilots with a fresh B73NG and some experience on type would do when laid off. The employer(s) are not in a position to enforce an employment contract either once the individual(s) are laid off. Besides, do you even qualify for EI after working 6 months? I thought you have to have been employed 36 weeks in the the last 12 months.

[RVR6000]

However 1 to 1 isn't the reality, at one point Sunwing had 160 foreign pilots in its roster.

[rudder]

1:1 pilot for pilot (including rank specific i.e. Capt for Capt)/ day for day (6 months here means 6 months available there).

[North Shore]

The concept of using foreign pilots is being abused by these companies in order to create a niche for themselves in our market. Canada doesn't need foreign pilots. What's so impossible with doing enough outsourcing to provide more steady work for your employees year round? Ranstrat does it...

But doesn't that lead to Canadian pilots working overseas - putting citizens of those countries in the same position that we are complaining about now?

[aileron]

The concept of using foreign pilots is being abused by these companies in order to create a niche for themselves in our market. Canada doesn't need foreign pilots. What's so impossible with doing enough outsourcing to provide more steady work for your employees year round? Ranstrat does it...

But doesn't that lead to Canadian pilots working overseas - putting citizens of those countries in the same position that we are complaining about now?

No because in many foreign markets there simply aren't enough pilots; however, as a side conversation, is it fair that Canadians can hold multiple citizenships and therefore work in their "other" country (e.g. the EU)?

[BingBong]

So would it be better to hire Canadian pilots for 6 months and then lay them all off? I am not trying to be sarcastic here, but since that flying work is so seasonal what other solution is there?

We do it here at Jazz with TC.....except during the "layoff period" we go back to flying our other aircraft

[Gino Under]

Evening rant

There is no need and therefore no requirement for any carrier in Canada to hire or contract a seasonal foreign pilot. I wish some of you could get that through your thick skulls. 1 for 1? Seriously?

Stop trying to justify it. It's an unacceptable practice.

I had a few type ratings lapse because I couldn't dig $5,000 out of MY OWN POCKET every six months to stay current on just one type!! I wasn't working and didn't have the extra cash to maintain my marketability. Boo hoo, poor me.

I wonder how many of you are/were in the same boat when every ad for pilots you read requires you to be type rated and current?
Boo hoo, poor airline.
I don't think so! These airlines have to insure their planes. What's the rate of return on that investment? Would the insurance company insure Canjet if KR said yes, we'll give you our business if YOU pay our premium?

A scumbag outfit playing the loopholes tells you a lot about that company. Doesn't it?

The chickens**t airlines that are doing it need to be called out and made justify their actions. Canadian pilots should at least have the option of deciding whether or not a six month gig is going to keep them current while providing their qualifications and experience to the airline which SHOULD be ensuring Canadian content. Not playing games.
That's why we have labour laws and immigration departments. If you don't want to stand up for yourself and your qualifications,that's up to you. At least have the intelligence, integrity, and professionalism to have a say in your own profession in your own country before there is nothing left and stop trying to justify or rationalize why it's okay. It isn't!

Most of us pay employment insurance. None of us need be embarrassed the day we need to draw it. For whatever the reason. Besides, it's really only a loan.

Gino Under
P.S. Pissy mood cuz les Habs lost to Boston

[Armitron]

Evening rant

There is no need and therefore no requirement for any carrier in Canada to hire or contract a seasonal foreign pilot. I wish some of you could get that through your thick skulls. 1 for 1? Seriously?

Stop trying to justify it. It's an unacceptable practice.

I had a few type ratings lapse because I couldn't dig $5,000 out of MY OWN POCKET every six months to stay current on just one type!! I wasn't working and didn't have the extra cash to maintain my marketability. Boo hoo, poor me.

I wonder how many of you are/were in the same boat when every ad for pilots you read requires you to be type rated and current?
Boo hoo, poor airline.
I don't think so! These airlines have to insure their planes. What's the rate of return on that investment? Would the insurance company insure Canjet if KR said yes, we'll give you our business if YOU pay our premium?

A scumbag outfit playing the loopholes tells you a lot about that company. Doesn't it?

The chickens**t airlines that are doing it need to be called out and made justify their actions. Canadian pilots should at least have the option of deciding whether or not a six month gig is going to keep them current while providing their qualifications and experience to the airline which SHOULD be ensuring Canadian content. Not playing games.
That's why we have labour laws and immigration departments. If you don't want to stand up for yourself and your qualifications,that's up to you. At least have the intelligence, integrity, and professionalism to have a say in your own profession in your own country before there is nothing left and stop trying to justify or rationalize why it's okay. It isn't!

Most of us pay employment insurance. None of us need be embarrassed the day we need to draw it. For whatever the reason. Besides, it's really only a loan.

Gino Under
P.S. Pissy mood cuz les Habs lost to Boston

+1 Well Said....

Sorry about my Bruins beating your Habs...lol

[teacher]

"Gino" I agree with you in an ideal world 200 pilots would be hired than laid off after 6 months but in reality there has to be some middle ground. I do agree that some companies have abused this loophole but sadly we can't always get what we want. Ideally the planes would move (overseas) but not the pilots right? What's better, 100 pilots hired full time or 200 hired part time? I don't know the answer, just asking

[ng78]

Gino, perhaps it is you with the thick skull? I think it is a great opportunity to be able to fly 6 months overseas and 6 months in Canada, as long as the company takes care of the details and pays accordingly. Pilots who are on these reciprocal arrangements get full per diems, housing etc, and trust me, they are well taken care of. I would much rather have this opportunity at some point, than to be thankful that I have a 6 month contract here and there, or perhaps that I need to look for my own 6 month contract when I'm unemployed with varying levels of success.

As others have said above, a 1 for 1 reciprocal arrangement benefits the companies, but also pilots willing to work for such a company, providing them with full year employment. For those that aren't interested in flying for a Canadian company 6 months of the year elsewhere in the world, they have other airlines they can apply for. My problem is when companies like Canjet and Sunwing start to abuse this provision and bring in far more foreign pilots than they send overseas. This practice must stop.

[Localizer]

Sorry folks .. I can't agree on the 1:1 deal .. because its not realistic, not when I know Sunwing has 200 plus foreign pilots on its roster and only 40 or so on contract overseas. That corporate mentality will not change as long as they can save a buck. I don't feel bad for corporations crying the blues because they have to train people, that's part of the business so you better plan/budget for it.

The positive aspects would be more Canadian pilots with 37ng type endorsements, more potential for those interested to get out of the bush, and to make Canadian pilots more marketable. Also, you never know what the corporate position really is .. they might keep those positions seasonal for the purpose of hiring cheaper foreign labour. If the loophole gets closed you might see more permanent positions as it could be cheaper in the long-run.

Either way .. this is not an ethical practice.

[hst]

My problem is when companies like Canjet and Sunwing start to abuse this provision and bring in far more foreign pilots than they send overseas. This practice must stop.

What do you consider "far more"? 1 more IMO unless there is a penalty.
The most senior F/O would get Capt. pay for each foreign pilot here over the 1-1 limit. That's how SSV handled it.
I think Sunwing's number are very lopsided (in favour of Europeans) this winter so I would hope there are some senior F/O's getting paid as Captain.

[imc]

Some good points have been made above, but many of the opinions are coming from complete ignorance on the charter market in Canada.

First off, can we agree that comparing Sunwing to Canjet is completely ridiculous? Sunwing is bringing in somewhere between 180-200 contract pilots when they only have 140 on their seniority list. These contract pilots are both Captains and FO's. I can't guess how many pilots SW will send to Europe next season, but in the past it has usually been in the 40-50 range. Since the TUI group now owns half of SW, this is becoming a cheap and easy way for TUIfly to park their high paid help in the winter as German labour laws make it difficult to lay people off. This is where the unfair playing field comes in - none of the other charter airlines in Canada have this advantage, and clearly it is impacting Transat Tours.

As for Canjet, they have brought in 35 pilots this winter season. ALL of them are FO's which means that ALL Captains flying for CJ are Canadian. Not to mention the fact that CJ has been continuously hiring for the past 4 years (almost 100 pilots) whereas Sunwing only recently has started hiring even though they have grown each of the past 3 winter seasons. I don't know final numbers, but 20 has been mentioned for the number of Canjet pilots that will be off to Germany next summer. Not quite a one-to-one ratio, but in their defense it is not at all easy to snap your fingers and produce summer work in Europe considering the economy.

I am not making excuses for how CJ has operated in the past when they did not reciprocate - this was wrong and I'm glad to see them moving in the right direction. However, comparing them to Sunwing and lumping both companies together is crazy.

Anyone who thinks that narrowbody charter airlines shouldn't need this program simply doesn't understand the market. I totally understand that from the outside it seems nuts that this needs to happen but I can honestly say that if we couldn't hire temporary pilots in Canada, there would be a lot more carnage than what you see now.

One poster mentioned Jazz and TC as an example and that is a good argument. However, the difference is in the size of the airline and the nature of the operation. Jazz has over 1000 pilots as I understand and they have a schedule that is comparable in the winter as well as the summer. That is the type of airline that can absorb 5 757's and realign come April. A company like Canjet has 120 pilots and 5 airplanes in the summer, a whole different ball game when 80% of your schedule is from January to March.

As for those that think it can work to hire people for 6 months and lay them off - it can't. Here is an example. Charter airline hires 35 pilots for the winter in August and starts GS and Sim which will take 2 months to complete. It is now October and each candidate will require 50-100 hours of line indoc as most of these new hires are off 1900's and King Airs. Guess what? There is no flying in October. Or November. Or December until the 17th of the month. Get the idea? It would be February before these pilots are online if not later as the other 90 pilots need to stay current as well.

Unfortunately these types of airlines NEED to hire rated people and do an abbreviated GS, 4 session sim and 2-4 legs of line indoc. There just isn't enough flying to make it work otherwise.

This program needs to continue, but it certainly needs to change. I understand your frustrations at how it is being implemented because this is not what it was designed for. We need to look at how SSV dealt with it and work towards maintaining true reciprocity and what can maximize jobs for Canadian pilots. What I see happening now is nothing more than corporate greed and disruption of a fair market.

[Dim]

Bingo! Finally someone who knows what they are talking about.
Thank you IMC

[Gino Under]

The absolute drivel used to try and justify foreign pilots working seasonally in Canada is nothing more than an expression of selfishness on the part of pilots employed by SW or CJ who think by NOT allowing these foreign pilots to work here would only serve to imperil their own chances of flying in europe for a few months.

Boo hoo.

As thick as I might be, I can look beyond seasonal flying in Europe and easily see how this practice, if allowed to continue, will impact our futures here at home.

Canadian pilots will be unable to acquire meaningful experience and qualifications in their own backyard. This, in turn, will hurt Canadian carriers because we won't have the qualifications and experience to offer when they need to hire. Those with experience will follow the money and leave Canada to ply their trade, further depleting home grown supply. Those presently overseas who finish their "time" offshore and return home will be too disgusted with the state of the industry here, they'll find other things to do.
The end result?
Aviation in Canada could well implode as more Europeans (as well as other foreigners) are brought in to kill any home grown opportunity.

Great.

I still say this practice should be stopped.

Gino

[confuzed]

The absolute drivel used to try and justify foreign pilots working seasonally in Canada is nothing more than an expression of selfishness on the part of pilots employed by SW or CJ who think by NOT allowing these foreign pilots to work here would only serve to imperil their own chances of flying in europe for a few months.


Gino

Wow dude...you're REALLY bitter, and twisted up in hatred aren't you? That really could explain why you were never called to work at either place. I think you need to chill a bit and absorb the wise post from imc as it hit the nail on the head.

If you in your almighty garbage spewing attitude have a better, more cost effective way of doing this kind of business why are you on here? You should be in a management position at one of these airlines, as you've got it all figured out and know how to operate this type of business.....congrats, you can go educate them!

Not trying to be harsh here, but your ranting and raving on the subject has grown tiresome...not only in my opinion I'm sure.

[Gino Under]

confuzed

If you condone and try to justify this circumventing of labour law then it's no wonder you're confused. You may be one of the offending parties. It's also a contributing factor in the further degradation of the piloting profession in Canada.
What is it you don't understand about using Canadian pilots at Canadian air carriers? Strike a nerve?
Try posting something with a reasonable rationale for or against. Any moron can call me names or insinuate that I'm bitter and twisted but if that's all you can come up with....
I'll take it for what its worth.

As for my commenting on the subject at hand, isn't that what these forums are for? Because you don't agree, I'm "bitter and twisted"? Really?

If an air carrier wet leases (ACMI) for the winter why does an air carrier need special labour and immigration consideration?
If an air carrier employs foreign type rated pilots then validates their foreign license to operate Canadian registered aircraft, I am of the opinion it's wrong.
No one has made it clear, that I can see, which of these it is.

Gino

[confuzed]

Gino...really? You're going to still say there is no rationale?

IMC took the time to rationally explain why it is done this way (well at Canjet anyway) and you blatantly shrug it off as "bull$hit". What more do you need? Really? What more? It's pretty black and white, his/her post was a pretty meat and potatoes reason.

Does the use of foreign pilots have to stop? Well if it's the way Sunwing is doing it absolutely, considering there's more foreigners than Canadians, the f/o's are being overlooked so direct entry captains are brought in, and not really hiring that many Canadians at all. They have gone head to head with Transat and it is obviously affecting Transat. THAT is what infuriates me; an airline that is owned in majority by a foreign conglomerate, that uses over 50 % of their pilots from a different country, and is causing Canadian pilots to be laid off due to their expansive growth. That HAS to stop and is unacceptable.

I'll apologize for coming off strong with you, I was in a foul mood earlier...I take the stance with others that if it's as close a reciprocal to 1:1 as you can get there's no problem. However, as the aforementioned tactics of Sunwing that is just plain wrong. If it continues and they win the "war", then essentially 2 Canadian companies/airlines are done unemploying hundreds of pilots while the victor continues to use their foreign majority.

[BEFAN5]

Gino...really? You're going to still say there is no rationale?

IMC took the time to rationally explain why it is done this way (well at Canjet anyway) and you blatantly shrug it off as "bull$hit". What more do you need? Really? What more? It's pretty black and white, his/her post was a pretty meat and potatoes reason.

Does the use of foreign pilots have to stop? Well if it's the way Sunwing is doing it absolutely, considering there's more foreigners than Canadians, the f/o's are being overlooked so direct entry captains are brought in, and not really hiring that many Canadians at all. They have gone head to head with Transat and it is obviously affecting Transat. THAT is what infuriates me; an airline that is owned in majority by a foreign conglomerate, that uses over 50 % of their pilots from a different country, and is causing Canadian pilots to be laid off due to their expansive growth. That HAS to stop and is unacceptable.

I'll apologize for coming off strong with you, I was in a foul mood earlier...I take the stance with others that if it's as close a reciprocal to 1:1 as you can get there's no problem. However, as the aforementioned tactics of Sunwing that is just plain wrong. If it continues and they win the "war", then essentially 2 Canadian companies/airlines are done unemploying hundreds of pilots while the victor continues to use their foreign majority.

+1

This just isn't an aviation problem. Our government needs to start taking care of us first. Unemployed Canadian's cost Canada money. Unemployed foreigners, do not cost Canada money.