If Big Reds Dead what now?

props ahead · Post by **props ahead** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:23 am

Writing in response to the latest poll on leaving for AC...
I too was one of the many that had a long-term goal to work for AC but in recent years lost interest and turned down an interview because I am happy for the time being where I am and happy to stay away from the upcoming problems at AC.
But....If we lose AC as an option to fly mid-size to wide body jets, what does that leave us as Canadians besides the obvious WJ.
How do you get on with Fedex or UPS and can it be done staying in Canada? Just say you weren't interested in playing in the sandbox what does that leave us as far as great lifestyle,top paid jobs in Canada?

Beefitarian · Post by **Beefitarian** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:35 am

Some company or more likely several, would step in to help provide service but I can't imagine they would be a better place to work.

In the cargo realm you missed Purolator. I read a rumor they belong to Canada post.

iflyforpie · Post by **iflyforpie** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:08 am

That's the wonderful thing about a free-market economy. The way it is supposed to work is the deadweight companies are supposed to declare bankruptcy and then sell their assets at pennies on the dollar. This way it is the owners, shareholders, and creditors who take the hit for the risk they assumed and the bold and financially savvy can then take those cheap assets without the burdens of unions and legacy pensions and start fresh.

But no, in Canada and the US, we must put forward public monies to loan or bailout these ailing companies who's problems will never go away. The shareholders and creditors must be laughing at their guaranteed investments underwritten by the public--not to mention CEOs making more than double what it would take me to successfully run a company into the ground.

The assets are there. The hangars, the jets (unless they are leased, so who cares anyways?) the offices, all of that. It's not like they are just going to sit empty while we are forced to fly Emirates internationally or WestJet domestically.

Many fans of the Avro Arrow don't realize that the Avro hangar in Malton (YYZ) was only demolished in the 21st century after providing employment for thousands assembling wings for McDonnell Douglas jets.

Eric Janson · Post by **Eric Janson** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:03 am

props ahead wrote:But....If we lose AC as an option to fly mid-size to wide body jets, what does that leave us as Canadians besides the obvious WJ.How do you get on with Fedex or UPS and can it be done staying in Canada? Just say you weren't interested in playing in the sandbox what does that leave us as far as great lifestyle,top paid jobs in Canada?

The World is a big place - there are plenty of jobs outside of the Middle East.

Living overseas isn't the end of the World - it isn't for everyone - it can be very rewarding if you have what it takes.

Flybabe · Post by **Flybabe** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:39 am

You can guarantee that another company will fill the void. As is aviation, where one company disappears, another will take its place.

Who knows which company that could be.

DanJ · Post by **DanJ** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:17 pm

Beefitarian wrote:Some company or more likely several, would step in to help provide service but I can't imagine they would be a better place to work.

In the cargo realm you missed Purolator. I read a rumor they belong to Canada post.

Kelowna Flightcraft does the Purolator flying. And yes Canada Post has owned the vast majority of Purolator for almost 20 years now.

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:01 pm

props ahead wrote: But....If we lose AC as an option to fly mid-size to wide body jets, what does that leave us as Canadians besides the obvious WJ.
How do you get on with Fedex or UPS and can it be done staying in Canada? Just say you weren't interested in playing in the sandbox what does that leave us as far as great lifestyle,top paid jobs in Canada?

You sound like Lisa Raitt, who will fly mid sized and wide body jets in Canada? Canadians have many option to get around, and Canadian Pilots have many choices when it comes to work. I know many pilots who went to AC and said it was the worst mistake of their lives, top of list was toxic work environment. So your assumption that AC is the best paying and best lifestyle for a Canadian pilot I would question, I have never worked their but its quite telling when guys who through out their life all they could talk about was getting on at AC, and then once their defected ASAP speaks volumes. Here is a list of companies that I am sure would pick up the slack if AC where to disappear completely.

Narrow Body and Wide Body Operators
WestJet
Jazz/Chorus
Air Transat
Nolinor
Air North
Canadian North
Sunwing
Canjet
Flair Air
First Air
Enerjet

Regional Turbo Prop
Pacific Coastal
Central Mountain Air
Hawk Air
Regional 1
Calm Air
Perimeter
Bearskin
Porter
Sky Regional
Voyaguer
Westwind
Transwest
Provincial
Air Georgian

Cargo Operators

Kelowna Flightcraft
Morningstar
CargoJet
Nolinor

If Air Canada where to go bankrupt it would not completely disappear, the restructuring would be short term pain for the traveling public no doubt. However, there are many option available to Canadians to get around, traveling to the US many options are available to the consumer from US Airlines and their regional partners. Every major centre and smaller markets in Canada have fairly good access to their networks.

Traveling Internationally and not connecting through a US hub is quite well served, take a look at all the foreign airlines that serve YVR, YYC, YUL and all of those centre's have connections from every city in Canada on the above mentioned Airlines.

Where does that leave Canadian Pilots with regard to "Great Life style and top paid job" well Lifestyle is very subjective, lifestyle for me would be sitting on a lake fishing by my own Beaver. Terminals filled with passengers and myself in a snappy uniform don't impress me much. To others that's the cats meow I prefer a nice FBO at a small airport with a popcorn machine and a courtesy car, that's just me.

As for pay, WJ and quite a few others pay very well, find a balance.

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:32 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768h3Tz4Qik

complexintentions · Post by **complexintentions** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:33 pm

Other than Transat with a couple of A330's, I don't see any widebody operators at all on that list. It's true you can serve Europe with an NG but beyond that, you would find a serious lack of international lift if AC suddenly disappeared. The Star members might be able to pick up some slack but I don't know what regulatory restrictions would have to be removed for that to happen. I'm sure Lisa Raitt would sort it all out. /sarcasm

Short answer, the demise of AC would be a lot more painful in the short term than a lot of haters realize, or want to be realistic about. In the long term, it only helps punctuate the move to cheap offshore labour. But that seems to be what everyone wants anyways, from shoes to airline tickets.

*shrug*

twinpratts · Post by **twinpratts** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:03 pm

Big Reds not dead...

STOLskunkworks · Post by **STOLskunkworks** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:38 pm

BIG RED is the equivalent of a terminal patient on life support.
Yes the family can come say goodbye but they had better hurry.
Soon the DR. will have no choice but to pull the plug.

props ahead · Post by **props ahead** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:13 pm

STOLskunkworks wrote:BIG RED is the equivalent of a terminal patient on life support.
Yes the family can come say goodbye but they had better hurry.
Soon the DR. will have no choice but to pull the plug.

HAHA Amazing!

twinpratts · Post by **twinpratts** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:04 pm

It's been the same story for decades...

60N30W · Post by **60N30W** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:53 pm

[quote="complexintentions"]Other than Transat with a couple of A330's, I don't see any widebody operators at all on that list."

Air Transat operates 12 A330, along with the widebody A310 fleet, think that counts as more than just "a couple of A330's". Big Red only has 8 A330's by the way. Also in the freighter world KFC operates DC-10 and Cargojet has 767 freighters so there is no shortage of cargo lift out there also. First Air also has a 767 freighter in operation along with the two Hercs.

Regards,

60N30W

flyer 1492 · Post by **flyer 1492** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:45 pm

When Moody's last downgraded AC's stock, we commented that AC will end up in bankruptcy and will come out of it a lot smaller than they are today. That would mean the domestic routes are probally gone, with AC concentrating on the overseas flying. Just my two cents worth....now flame away.

gasbag · Post by **gasbag** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:59 pm

Sunwing and Canjet both have a large number of foreign pilots working for them in Canada. Not Canadian's, they used a qualification/type endorsement argument that the Fed's bought to save money by not training Canadian pilots. I would agree with flyer 1492 that AC want's out of the domestic market. If a new entity takes that domestic flying over don't assume that ALL the positions would go to Canadians.

Hawkerflyer · Post by **Hawkerflyer** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:41 pm

Their not dead. They do however need a "rebuild". People have short memories and will forget all.

Wait!...is that Venus?

teacher · Post by **teacher** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:33 pm

Not that I'm saying it should happen nor do I want it to BUT wide body flying isn't rocket science. Many carriers could over time pick up the slack, even Jazz.

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:34 pm

All they need to do is open the market to allow Emirates and Qatar Airways to fill the void and voila.

Diadem · Post by **Diadem** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:01 pm

60N30W wrote:Air Transat operates 12 A330, along with the widebody A310 fleet, think that counts as more than just "a couple of A330's". Big Red only has 8 A330's by the way. Also in the freighter world KFC operates DC-10 and Cargojet has 767 freighters so there is no shortage of cargo lift out there also. First Air also has a 767 freighter in operation along with the two Hercs.

Regards,

60N30W

Flair will be bringing a 767 online any day now too.

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