Westjet Tech Ops needs a union!!!!!!!

[ChallengerDan]

When I was in a union...the things that my union fought for
1-right for production employees to smoke dope during lunch on company property

What usually happens is the other way around. The union fights to mitigate disciplinary actions against an employee that has an addiction problem.
Most places nowadays have some sort of rehabilitation program so that if your wife leaves you and you start drinking like crazy, they won't fire you before having given you a chance to sober up.

2-problem employee to be put on long term disabilty so no one has to deal with them...would not let the company fire them

This is a recurrent subject that comes up whenever the subject of unions is brought up. Fact of the matter is, the union will always fight a dismissal. That is why, amongst other things, the employees are paying dues. That puts the burden of proof on the employer. You can still be dismissed for just cause. But it needs to be a well put together case. This is, in fact, the exact same system that the courts use. You are not guilty until proven otherwise, and the sentence needs to be appropriate for motives invoked.

3-10 week strike that cost me 20% of my yearly salary. They were very prod of the fact that they got approx 10% (3% 3% 4%) wage increase over 3 years. I think I almost broke even over the term of the contract

Strikes are the ultimate negotiating tool. Going on strike for wage increases is almost always a lose-lose situation. Striking is making a sacrifice. The question is if this sacrifice is worth the eventual gains. If the gains are only monetary it usually doesn't add up.

4-A strike vote where the union reps were threatening vilolence if the vote was not for strike and the strike vote was not secret ballot (vote for strike or we will talk in alley was the feeling)

Strikes and the period leading to them are usually emotionally charged and sometime behaviors that are inappropriate come out. I did go through a strike once, and none of what you mention here happened. I prefer secret vote, personally, but it depends on what your union bylaws were.


The thread opener hasn't explained the nature of the issues. I would be very surprised if there were issues that absolutely need a union to be resolved.
All the westjetters I know are satisfied with this company. It is not perfect, but it is a good place to be.

[palm90]

When I was in a union...the things that my union fought for
1-right for production employees to smoke dope during lunch on company property

What usually happens is the other way around. The union fights to mitigate disciplinary actions against an employee that has an addiction problem.
Most places nowadays have some sort of rehabilitation program so that if your wife leaves you and you start drinking like crazy, they won't fire you before having given you a chance to sober up.

2-problem employee to be put on long term disabilty so no one has to deal with them...would not let the company fire them

This is a recurrent subject that comes up whenever the subject of unions is brought up. Fact of the matter is, the union will always fight a dismissal. That is why, amongst other things, the employees are paying dues. That puts the burden of proof on the employer. You can still be dismissed for just cause. But it needs to be a well put together case. This is, in fact, the exact same system that the courts use. You are not guilty until proven otherwise, and the sentence needs to be appropriate for motives invoked.

3-10 week strike that cost me 20% of my yearly salary. They were very prod of the fact that they got approx 10% (3% 3% 4%) wage increase over 3 years. I think I almost broke even over the term of the contract

Strikes are the ultimate negotiating tool. Going on strike for wage increases is almost always a lose-lose situation. Striking is making a sacrifice. The question is if this sacrifice is worth the eventual gains. If the gains are only monetary it usually doesn't add up.

4-A strike vote where the union reps were threatening vilolence if the vote was not for strike and the strike vote was not secret ballot (vote for strike or we will talk in alley was the feeling)

Strikes and the period leading to them are usually emotionally charged and sometime behaviors that are inappropriate come out. I did go through a strike once, and none of what you mention here happened. I prefer secret vote, personally, but it depends on what your union bylaws were.


The thread opener hasn't explained the nature of the issues. I would be very surprised if there were issues that absolutely need a union to be resolved.
All the westjetters I know are satisfied with this company. It is not perfect, but it is a good place to be.

[yycflyguy]

And others forget this isn't 1930 anymore.

Unions had their place, and in some places still do. These days each company gets the union they deserve and as kevind pointed out above, a lot of unions are no better than some corporations.

Pssst. In case you haven't been paying attention it is not just the company that workers/unions have to fight.

The Federal government has violated the Constitution, does not recognize Canadian Labour Law and stripped CUPE, CUPW, ALPA, ACPA and the CP rail workers of their right for LEGAL industrial action.

Even though unions ideally protect their workers from the government and the employer, as a pilot in a union, I can tell you that unions protect pilots from other pilots. Let's see how it goes when your Q400 drivers decide they should be paid the same as the 737 drivers, or have the same work conditions or the same benefits or better yet, the Q400 guys get together and tell your management that they will do your job for 25% less...

[True North]

And others forget this isn't 1930 anymore.

Unions had their place, and in some places still do. These days each company gets the union they deserve and as kevind pointed out above, a lot of unions are no better than some corporations.

Pssst. In case you haven't been paying attention it is not just the company that workers/unions have to fight.

The Federal government has violated the Constitution, does not recognize Canadian Labour Law and stripped CUPE, CUPW, ALPA, ACPA and the CP rail workers of their right for LEGAL industrial action.

Even though unions ideally protect their workers from the government and the employer, as a pilot in a union, I can tell you that unions protect pilots from other pilots. Let's see how it goes when your Q400 drivers decide they should be paid the same as the 737 drivers, or have the same work conditions or the same benefits or better yet, the Q400 guys get together and tell your management that they will do your job for 25% less...

Blah blah blah. Typical unionist alarmist drivel.

And again, I do not work for WesJet so they aren't "my" Q400 pilots.

Any of what you suggest could happen - with or without a union. The WestJet pilots are organized and represented by their association. If their association can't protect them, neither could ALPA or anyone else.

Now back to the topic at hand, which was a union for WestJet mainteneance.

[invertedattitude]

And others forget this isn't 1930 anymore.

Unions had their place, and in some places still do. These days each company gets the union they deserve and as kevind pointed out above, a lot of unions are no better than some corporations.

Pssst. In case you haven't been paying attention it is not just the company that workers/unions have to fight.

The Federal government has violated the Constitution, does not recognize Canadian Labour Law and stripped CUPE, CUPW, ALPA, ACPA and the CP rail workers of their right for LEGAL industrial action.

Even though unions ideally protect their workers from the government and the employer, as a pilot in a union, I can tell you that unions protect pilots from other pilots. Let's see how it goes when your Q400 drivers decide they should be paid the same as the 737 drivers, or have the same work conditions or the same benefits or better yet, the Q400 guys get together and tell your management that they will do your job for 25% less...

Blah blah blah. Typical unionist alarmist drivel.

And again, I do not work for WesJet so they aren't "my" Q400 pilots.

Any of what you suggest could happen - with or without a union. The WestJet pilots are organized and represented by their association. If their association can't protect them, neither could ALPA or anyone else.

Now back to the topic at hand, which was a union for WestJet mainteneance.

Oh how horribly uneducated you sound.

If you think that PACT can offer the same protection an actual union can...

[jjj]

[/quote]

If you think that PACT can offer the same protection an actual union can...[/quote]

Do not confuse PACT with the WJPA...

PACT is the voice of all employees at WS and is more fluff than action. The WJPA is our Pilots Association that gets stuff done. Many lifestyle improvements over the last several years are due to their initiatives.

As far as protection goes... we are all at the mercy of the people upstairs and now also a labour minister to ensure impotence. The scope clauses at AC are longer than the whole of the WS pilot agreement and by year's end may be as usefull as a fist full of Singapore Sam's take-out menus.

All it takes is a few key changes in 2 or 3 executive positions and WS will suffer the same fate as most other airlines in North America.

For now things are good and I hope the ride continues for awhile and anybody that thinks a union could preserve things for longer needs to give their head a rigourous shake.

JJJ

[flatface]

Deleted

[True North]

Oh how horribly uneducated you sound.

If you think that PACT can offer the same protection an actual union can...

See jjj's post, and right back at ya.

While you're at it, ask the Air Canada boys and girls how well union representation is working out for them right now.

[flatface]

Deleted

[invertedattitude]

Oh how horribly uneducated you sound.

If you think that PACT can offer the same protection an actual union can...

See jjj's post, and right back at ya.

While you're at it, ask the Air Canada boys and girls how well union representation is working out for them right now.

Keep digging, you'll hit gold soon...

You think that the Air Canada pilots would be in a BETTER position without their union?!

[bombardierfixer]

I shouldn't be doing this...

What do you think a union could get us that we don't already have? Compensation? A fair working environment? Leadership who wants to work with the people? The WJPA is a very strong entity and the AME association is becoming a stronger in WestJet's world. The compensation review and restructure makes that pretty evident. Yeah we don't get everything we want but we get taken care of. No place is perfect but a union would be a short sighted solution to a problem that doesn't exist. As for a union being a "seat belt" I think of it more as a governor on a sports car, hampering your performance to make others happy, so no thanks. If you're gonna be in Canadian aviation WestJet is one of the best places to work.

What the Canadian government has done in my mind is wrong and something should be done. I obviously don't agree with unions but if you have one and you want one, the government does not have the right to take peoples constitutional rights away to bargain a collective agreement even if that includes strike action. Especially when you are propping up a company that by its own miss-management has got it into the mess they find their selves in. Cherry picking laws to enforce is also wrong. I feel bad for the groups over at Air Canada and Aveos who have been stripped of their rights and freedoms.

Techops does not need a union.

[True North]

Oh how horribly uneducated you sound.

If you think that PACT can offer the same protection an actual union can...

See jjj's post, and right back at ya.

While you're at it, ask the Air Canada boys and girls how well union representation is working out for them right now.

Keep digging, you'll hit gold soon...

You think that the Air Canada pilots would be in a BETTER position without their union?!

Jeez Louise you're thick. They would be in exactly the same place. That's the point.

[Sparkfarmer]

Well said Bombardierfixer.

[twinpratts]

I shouldn't be doing this...

What do you think a union could get us that we don't already have? Compensation? A fair working environment? Leadership who wants to work with the people? The WJPA is a very strong entity and the AME association is becoming a stronger in WestJet's world. The compensation review and restructure makes that pretty evident. Yeah we don't get everything we want but we get taken care of. No place is perfect but a union would be a short sighted solution to a problem that doesn't exist. As for a union being a "seat belt" I think of it more as a governor on a sports car, hampering your performance to make others happy, so no thanks. If you're gonna be in Canadian aviation WestJet is one of the best places to work.

What the Canadian government has done in my mind is wrong and something should be done. I obviously don't agree with unions but if you have one and you want one, the government does not have the right to take peoples constitutional rights away to bargain a collective agreement even if that includes strike action. Especially when you are propping up a company that by its own miss-management has got it into the mess they find their selves in. Cherry picking laws to enforce is also wrong. I feel bad for the groups over at Air Canada and Aveos who have been stripped of their rights and freedoms.

Techops does not need a union.

+1

[palm90]

I shouldn't be doing this...

What do you think a union could get us that we don't already have? Compensation? A fair working environment? Leadership who wants to work with the people? The WJPA is a very strong entity and the AME association is becoming a stronger in WestJet's world. The compensation review and restructure makes that pretty evident. Yeah we don't get everything we want but we get taken care of. No place is perfect but a union would be a short sighted solution to a problem that doesn't exist. As for a union being a "seat belt" I think of it more as a governor on a sports car, hampering your performance to make others happy, so no thanks. If you're gonna be in Canadian aviation WestJet is one of the best places to work.

What the Canadian government has done in my mind is wrong and something should be done. I obviously don't agree with unions but if you have one and you want one, the government does not have the right to take peoples constitutional rights away to bargain a collective agreement even if that includes strike action. Especially when you are propping up a company that by its own miss-management has got it into the mess they find their selves in. Cherry picking laws to enforce is also wrong. I feel bad for the groups over at Air Canada and Aveos who have been stripped of their rights and freedoms.

Techops does not need a union.

+1

+1

[flatface]

Deleted

[twinpratts]

Negotiating the contract is not ALL the union does for you. They make sure the contract is followed for the 2/3/4/5 years between negotiations.

The penny pinching ass kissing bean counters keep trying to circumvent the contract at every turn, to save a nickel, and improve THEIR bonus's.

I don't know about everyone else at this job, but I have had no issue with management doing these things at WJ. I still say the best alternative is to have a good, open relationship with Management.
The bonus is not having to pay any dues to the Union.

[CRJ 705]

Just so everyone knows my position on this, not that anyone cares, but hey it's a freeish country unless your a worker.



People constantly forget that all those perks and benefits you have at your non-union job never existed before unions earned them

And others forget this isn't 1930 anymore.

Unions had their place, and in some places still do. These days each company gets the union they deserve and as kevind pointed out above, a lot of unions are no better than some corporations.

of course, the unions look at us like a bank, but it also has a lot to do with the type of district chair and bargaining chair person that you have representing you. doesnt matter what union u are in.

[rooster]

Hayden,

Mission accomplished.

You people got Rick rolled

How easy it is to provoke people on an internet forum

[CAL]

Who is Hayden?.....who is Rick? I dont see their names on this thread anywhere?

[pollyperkins]

Ahh unions... protectors of the lazy and incompetent.

There was a time and place for them (coal mining and early 20th century manufacturing comes to mind). In this day and age there is no place for them - again... protectors of the lazy and incompetent. Oh yes, and also... the greedy.

[North Shore]

^Riiiiight. And you think that if unions disappeared tomorrow, then we wouldn't be back to those working conditions again?

[Cat19]

[quote="Dash8300"]so, i'm a bit confused. how would a union help? i see what the union has done to/for the ames at Aveos and it doesn't seem like they've really helped the guys. what about Jazz? with the heavy maintenance being looked at and likely going to be contracted, what is their union doing for them? from an outsider looking in, it looks like all of the union aircraft maintenance jobs in Canada are slowly going away and KFL, Cascade and Premier will be the only ones in business.[/quote]

Cascade is a union operation.

[212wrench]

I am not going to get into the union good/union bad argument. Just to note that in the US 23 states have instituted "Right to Work" legislation which allows an employee to not have to join the union. The result has been a 10% reduction in wages and the most alarming feature of the legislation is it allows the employer to now fire without just cause. Just FYI.

[Islandmech]

I shouldn't be doing this...

What do you think a union could get us that we don't already have? Compensation? A fair working environment? Leadership who wants to work with the people? The WJPA is a very strong entity and the AME association is becoming a stronger in WestJet's world. The compensation review and restructure makes that pretty evident. Yeah we don't get everything we want but we get taken care of. No place is perfect but a union would be a short sighted solution to a problem that doesn't exist. As for a union being a "seat belt" I think of it more as a governor on a sports car, hampering your performance to make others happy, so no thanks. If you're gonna be in Canadian aviation WestJet is one of the best places to work.

What the Canadian government has done in my mind is wrong and something should be done. I obviously don't agree with unions but if you have one and you want one, the government does not have the right to take peoples constitutional rights away to bargain a collective agreement even if that includes strike action. Especially when you are propping up a company that by its own miss-management has got it into the mess they find their selves in. Cherry picking laws to enforce is also wrong. I feel bad for the groups over at Air Canada and Aveos who have been stripped of their rights and freedoms.

Techops does not need a union.

+2!!!