A Boeing 777 Has Crash-Landed At San Francisco International

[Meatservo]

OK, OK, whatever you guys say. Who or whatever is "flying" the plane, they need to get their shit together, because this time they "flew" it wrong, hit a seawall and ripped the tail off. The will of the computer or the engineers or something needs a little tweaking. I'm not sure how you guys can sit there and try to tell me about all the great stuff that stops pilots from doing things wrong by preventing them from actually "flying" the plane when we're discussing an accident where some guys flew a plane wrong! They "told the computer" to fly below a normal glide path, "told the computer" to raise the nose and forgot to "tell the computer" to add power and manage the aircraft's energy state. For a couple of guys who aren't really flying the aircraft, they sure did a terrible job of not flying it the way the engineers and computer intended for them to not fly it!

All this semantics is getting me down. This would be fun if we were discussing it over some beers along with some other flying stories, but in this format I'm just getting pissed off.

[Flying Nutcracker]

L.O.S.A. kills!

“The first step in achieving SA involves perceiving the status, attributes, and dynamics of relevant elements in the environment. The pilot needs to accurately perceive information about his/her aircraft and its systems (airspeed, position, altitude, route, direction of flight, etc.)

“Comprehension of the situation is based on a synthesis of disjointed Level 1 elements. Level 2 SA goes beyond simply being aware of the elements that are present to include an understanding of the significance of those elements in light of the pilot’s goals. Based upon knowledge of Level 1 elements, particularly when put together to form patterns with other elements, a holistic picture of the environment will be formed, including a comprehension of the significance of information and events”.This means using the information that has been gathered in step one to form a mental picture of the current situation.

“It is the ability to project the future actions of the elements in the environment, at least in the near term, that forms the third and highest level of Situation Awareness. This is achieved through knowledge of the status and dynamics of the elements and a comprehension of the situation (both Level 1 and Level 2 SA)”.This means anticipating what will happen next and using this expectation to make decisions.

Preconceptions - Often when we have a a preconception about what is going to happen, we try and match information to this idea, insteed of seeing what is actually going on. If we do not have a full level of situational awareness, this can lead to carrying out incorrect, and potentially harmful actions. Some examples of this would be succumbing to a visual illusion, or not following an air traffic control clearance correctly.

http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/av ... eness#toc3

[white_knuckle_flyer]

When the discussions of "culture" arose in this thread, I think some members interpreted these comments as suggesting that cultural differences were likely at the root of this specific accident or that cultural differences have a larger impact on accident rates than other factors. Bringing up counter-examples of crashes where the pilot was a good ol' American boy is evidence that some people are turning this into an "us versus them" debate. But I don't think this was the original intention of those who injected the cultural perspective into the thread.

In my view, all that has been said ( or perhaps all that should be said ) is that culture is an additional factor that some airlines/pilot must deal with in addition to all the other factors that domestic pilots face. I don't think this is an unreasonable position. As an analogy, way more accidents are caused by sober drivers than drunk drivers, so drinking does not necessarily cause accidents. But it is widely acceptance that it is an additional factor that increases the likelihood that you will indeed have an accident. The question of course is whether cultural differences have the same kind of acceptance. I stated earlier that there is ample evidence that culture can inhibit communication, and this doesn't need to be a prejudicial, biased or ethnocentric statement. In fact, what can be just as dangerous is the mixing of cultures. So I don't think introducing the cultural perspective is at all narrow-minded ~ in fact, quite the opposite.

[jeta1]

I stated earlier that there is ample evidence that culture can inhibit communication, and this doesn't need to be a prejudicial, biased or ethnocentric statement. In fact, what can be just as dangerous is the mixing of cultures. So I don't think introducing the cultural perspective is at all narrow-minded ~ in fact, quite the opposite.

indeed... here's a must-watch less than 4 min clip of the Korean Air 8509 MAYDAY episode, where clearly the culture at Korean airlines is deeply rooted and influential in crisis in the cockpit.

[Sidebar]

For a couple of guys who aren't really flying the aircraft, they sure did a terrible job of not flying it the way the engineers and computer intended for them to not fly it!

These days, pilots on transport category aircraft are more systems operators than they are flyers, especially on heavily automated airplanes certified in the past 35 years (from 757/767, 320 to 777, 380, 787). Additionally, their time is divided, with perhaps 99% devoted to operating the systems and the remaining 1% actually flying the aircraft.

I think the Asiana crew did a great job of operating their aircraft in a way the engineers "intended for them to not fly it!" I also think it is possible there may be technical factors at play in addition to the operator issues. For example, perhaps the engineers did not anticipate the crew would or could do whatever they did.

Future generations of aircraft are likely to provide barriers to prevent the crew from operating it into an undesirable flight regime such as an unstable approach. "WHOOP, WHOOP, COMPUTER HAS CONTROL, TAKE HANDS OFF CONTROLS OR DOG WILL ATTACK"

Edit: I came across this about an hour after typing my comment above: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/busine ... 77131.html

[Sidebar]

Culture of one kind or another has contributed to many accidents. Examples are: the KLM captain at Tenerife; the business culture at ValuJet; the B52 at Fairchild AFB; Colgan Air at Buffalo; take your pick of Canadian air taxi accidents.

Culture can also be positive. Think of the good company you worked for as compared to one where everyone's life was miserable and everyone was waiting for an accident to happen and praying it wouldn't be them.

[crazy_aviator]

No one here is trying to pull a Zimmerman race card. IF certain RACES have a type of culture in the cockpit, it is NOT racially motivated , its simply the culture within the race. If we say Canadians are good fighter pilots, it is the CULTURE of the race that makes it so . IF a black person is good at basketball, is the colour of their skin because of race and their basketball abilities because of culture ? To throw in a monkey wrench here, Back in the days of the 12 tribes of Israel each tribe (race) had specific properties which was passed down in their generations and so, there is ALSO specific traits within genetic lines ( races) The problem is differentiating between cultural and genetic predisposition as compared to learned behaviours and teaching and /or lack of overall experience ( Canuck bush pilots)

[CID]

"Canadian" is a "race" now?

[crazy_aviator]

//Offtopic post edited by Sulako.

Let's try to keep this discussion relevant to the topic, shall we?

[Meatservo]

..and with this latest turn in the conversation, meatservo has left the building. I'm off to operate the systems on my aircraft and hopefully not screw up too badly.

[Eric Janson]

When the discussions of "culture" arose in this thread, I think some members interpreted these comments as suggesting that cultural differences were likely at the root of this specific accident or that cultural differences have a larger impact on accident rates than other factors.

This is exactly what I and others are saying. Eastern culture is not compatible with the operation of modern transport category aircraft.

This is based on my personal experiences. Again - and I cannot emphasise this enough - if you have not flown in Asia you have no idea.

How the System works:-

People get their Com/Multi/IFR in the US then convert to a local licence.
They are then hired as F/O A320. Training takes 2 years with an extensive groundschool and 80+ sectors of Line Training.
Learning is by rote - the manuals are memorised as are the SOPs. The problem is that nobody teaches them how to apply this knowledge. I've flown with these people. They are lost outside the books or the SOP. It's not their fault - this is how they are taught to do things.
After 18 months they move on to the widebody fleet where most flights are 3 crew so they don't get a lot of handling.
After 6 years they get a Command Evaluation. They are expected to be instant Captains. Failure rates are 50%.
If they get through the Command Evaluation they become Captain A320.
After 18 months they move onto the widebody fleet as Captain.

You will find this is similar throughout Asia. This system will tend to promote people far above their level of ability.

That said - there are extremely capable people as well. I have flown with some extremely good Captains/Instructors and F/O's.

There are a lot of incidents that do not make the papers. I know of a high and fast approach where an aircraft landed 2000m down a 3000m runway despite ATC and the F/O calling for a go-around. They came to a halt at the very end of the runway and promptly had 2 fuse plugs melt.

The Captain was just put back in Line Training - given a Line Check and released back to the Line. Locals cannot be fired - no matter what.

If that had been me I would have been fired on the spot. As Expat you cannot afford any incidents. Expats are held to a different standard.

A go-around is seen as a loss of face in most Asian cultures - so it isn't going to happen even if they violate the SOP.
It is also not culturally acceptable to question a superior - F/O will not say anything nor is he encouraged to speak up.

Culture overrides safety. Thousands of years of culture cannot be erased overnight.

Standard accident in the region is a high/fast approach with a late touchdown followed by an overrun. One Airline has had two overruns at the same airport in less than 24 hours.

[Cat Driver]

Good post Eric, reality trumps P.C. Every time.

However you may have wound up CID with your message.....we shall see.

[Flying Nutcracker]

Eric Janson, I find your insight very... in the lack of a better description, scary. But I do have a question.

What is the dynamic in the flight deck in this Asiana accident, where you have a captain and a TRAINING captain supervising the captain? Does the same apply? Do not question the captain? Just asking out of pure lack of knowledge and curiosity. And who called for a go-around in the Asiana accident?

Cheers

FN

[bizjets101]

[Beefitarian]

Standard accident in the region is a high/fast approach with a late touchdown followed by an overrun.

Well... This crew seems to have overcome that stereo type.

[AirFrame]

Well... This crew seems to have overcome that stereo type.

I guess *on average*, they're getting it on the numbers...

[CFR]

Well... This crew seems to have overcome that stereo type.

I guess *on average*, they're getting it on the numbers...

In the famous words of Maxwell Smart "Missed it by THAT much!"

[CpnCrunch]

A go-around is seen as a loss of face in most Asian cultures - so it isn't going to happen even if they violate the SOP.
It is also not culturally acceptable to question a superior - F/O will not say anything nor is he encouraged to speak up.

Culture overrides safety. Thousands of years of culture cannot be erased overnight.

Standard accident in the region is a high/fast approach with a late touchdown followed by an overrun. One Airline has had two overruns at the same airport in less than 24 hours.

Don't they have any kind of flight data analysis programme? That would completely eliminate this particular cultural problem (if implemented properly).

[CID]

You will find this is similar throughout Asia. This system will tend to promote people far above their level of ability.

That said - there are extremely capable people as well. I have flown with some extremely good Captains/Instructors and F/O's.

So...culture is a factor....but then it isn’t?

Those two sentences sum it up quite well. In any geographic segment of the industry, you will find good and bad. But the airlines are not operating in a vacuum. If a particular airline shows that it’s not safe, it loses privileges.

Korean airlines had a spate of operational issues but have been forced to improve greatly in the last 10 years. Was it a “culture” thing? If it was, it certainly wasn’t sustainable because if they let their regional or ethnic culture affect safety, other countries would shut them out.

Think back at the Avianca crash in New York years ago.

One of the contributing factors in the crash was “language”. The Spanish speaking pilots had difficulty conveying the urgency of their fuel situation. Another factor was that the accident airline had no flight following system as required by operating rules. The FAA deflected a great deal of blame by playing the “culture” card but failed to recognize that cultural interaction works two ways.

The courts finally placed 40% of the blame on ATC. A factor in them changing their minds were an American operated 727 had a similar incident with almost the same cause. Of course that didn’t stop the media from playing the “culture” card. One fellow wrote a book about the accident and expanded on how different ethnic groups respond to authority. Completely out of context with pilots on international airlines.

Then the Value-Jet crash happened. An American airline who employed mechanics who spoke only Spanish to work with other mechanics who spoke only English. Value-Jet was a maintenance disaster. Whose “culture” are we going to blame that one on?

Making sweeping generalizations about other “cultures” doesn’t hold water. I’ll give making a case for culture a shot and actually put it in the context of airline pilots.

In the US, airline pilots must rise through the ranks. They need to fight it out with other candidates to sit in the right seat of a regional aircraft while making poverty wages in hopes of transitioning one day to the left seat where they can now enjoy a wage at least 15% above the poverty wage.

They receive extremely poor training (Colgan Air) don’t practice proper CRM (Comair) and have poor maintenance (Value Jet). Furthermore, because of the hyper-capitalistic nature of the populace, airlines in the US are often in bankruptcy protection as they try to bludgeon each other out of the market. Many US airlines have disappeared altogether or are sucked up by another airline because they can’t compete. (Pan Am, Eastern, TWA, NWA, Braniff, America West, Continental etc etc...)

Pilots drink and do drugs while on duty. (American Eagle, United Express, Delta, United, United, United, United....) Pilots fall asleep and completely miss their destination. (NWA)

I could go on but I think the point is made. Are these human failings “cultural” or are they more personal than that? I say that if you are an international airline pilot from ANY cultural background you need to be qualified to operate your airplane in accordance with the prescribed standards that are agreed to by the international agencies that broker agreements between the corresponding airworthiness authorities.

If you have some quirk that doesn’t allow you to meet the standard, you won’t be around very long. Can you imagine an American airline hiring a dude that was born in Korea and him saying that he will not take orders in the cockpit because it’s not part of his “culture”?

It’s just too easy to say “it’s a cultural thing” when it’s much much more than that.

[photofly]

...
Pilots drink and do drugs while on duty. (American Eagle, United Express, Delta, United, United, United, United....) Pilots fall asleep and completely miss their destination. (NWA)

I could go on but I think the point is made. Are these human failings “cultural” or are they more personal than that

Cultural, without a doubt. That was a very good list of why North American culture is unsuited to flying aircraft.

Cultures are like accents. Everyone has one except me.

[righthandman]

removed by me

[Beefitarian]

I'll get rid of the quote then.

[Eric Janson]

What is the dynamic in the flight deck in this Asiana accident, where you have a captain and a TRAINING captain supervising the captain? Does the same apply? Do not question the captain? Just asking out of pure lack of knowledge and curiosity. And who called for a go-around in the Asiana accident?

In some cultures hierarchy may be defined differently. The definition of superior and subordinate may be very different to what it is in a Western Culture. The accident report will hopefully shed more light on this.

Don't they have any kind of flight data analysis programme? That would completely eliminate this particular cultural problem (if implemented properly).

These programs exist and are mandatory to the best of my knowledge. The problem is indeed implementation. Where I worked in case of incidents a factual report was sent to all pilots. There was never any follow up - no results of any investigation were ever published (except if there were no findings). CRM classes only talked about other Airlines - they never looked at in-house issues.

This is one area where there is still a lot of work to be done.

@CID

I think we should start by defining "Culture"

From the Dictionary

The behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group

From your posts you are looking at things from a North American perspective. I'm assuming you've never lived overseas and experienced hows things work (or don't) in other parts of the World. I'm also assuming you've never worked in an environment where the flight crew consist of several different nationalities.

You will find that:-

-The value of human life
-Interaction between superior and subordinate
-Social hierarchy
-Religion (which can play a huge role in day-to-day life)
-The process to achieve change
-The role of women

can all be very different to the way things are in our "Western" culture. That's not a bad thing - quite the opposite. The amazing cultural diversity is one of the great things about Asia.

Modern transport category aircraft are designed to be flown with the crew working together in a certain way. The problems start when this way of working as a crew is very different to the way things work in everyday life. This creates a conflict. Thousands of years of culture cannot simply be thrown aside.

Instead of bringing up various North American accidents have a look at the Asian accidents. Have a look at how the crew functioned (or didn't). The final report on Asiana 214 will make for very interesting reading.

One final example. When I lived in Asia I interacted with the local population. In several instances people told me things that I would never have expected to hear (especially since I was almost a total stranger to them in some cases). They needed to talk about certain things but were unable to talk about theses issues within their own culture as it wasn't acceptable or safe to do so. Quite an eye opener on cultural limitations.

[CID]

Eric Jansen,

You're looking at this from an "us against them" perspective in my opinion. Is every Asian pilot a "bad" pilot? Is every Western pilot a "good" pilot?

In the end, there is little value in dragging the ethnicity or the geographical home of the pilot into a discussion of airline operations. I spent time abroad and I can tell you that I have seen some odd "cultural" behaviours. Northern Canada comes to mind. As does the US deep south.

Of course their behaviour isn't as foreign to me as stuff I've witnessed in Europe and Asia but you just don't see a lot of guys who live on the Bayou occupying the left seat of a 777. Or an Inuit fellow who grew up in Igloolik operating an A320. Those people would have great difficulty overcoming their cultural prejudices to work indoors much less in command of a large airliner. They just wouldn't make it.

But doesn't becoming an airline pilot "normalize" those people to a high degree? A Dentist knows that he should wash his hands and sanitize his tools but if he grew up as a street child in the sewers of Rio de Janeiro he'd have a problem just getting used to wearing shoes. There is no way he would make it as a dentist.

So I'm talking "culture" in a narrower context than you are. In the context of an airline pilot who must achieve at least the minimum amount of training prescribed by the international airline regulating community.

Let's talk about your little list:

-The value of human life
-Interaction between superior and subordinate
-Social hierarchy
-Religion (which can play a huge role in day-to-day life)
-The process to achieve change
-The role of women

I'm hear to tell you that your list can vary greatly within the same ethnic or "cultural" group. I've read about Western Priests who have sexually molested children. I know plenty of white guys who have slaughtered people. (Columbine, Timothy McVeigh, Charles Manson, Dawson College) Western Rock stars are some of the most depraved people on the planet. Women are still paid less than men in North America for the same job. A disturbing amount of schools in the US bible belt have banned evolution from being taught. Social hierarchy? There isn't a formal caste system in North America but ask any Native in Canada or Negro in the US what the social hierarchy is.

Those values vary among individuals regardless of their cultural background. And persons in the role of commander of a huge modern airliner is going to be much more normalized than some survivalist living in a hole in Montana.

[Flying Nutcracker]

Seriously guys! You should get together and cultivate a few beers!