Service from terminal areas for VFR

[adampenner]

Hi,

What's your level of service for VFR airplanes in the terminal area in your part of the country? How are VFR airplanes treated?

In Winnipeg the level of service has been poor and feels like it's getting worse again. Slots for IFR training are routinely cancelled at the last minute. Often the ATIS/NOTAM will go on and on about staff shortages and that VFR airplanes not allowed in the terminal area. The supervisor of the ACC says the right things, but can't seem to bring about real results in fixing the issue year after year.

Adam

[7ECA]

Vancouver Terminal is about the same, VFR traffic is routinely denied entrance, and the airspace is almost always restricted.

We also have the same ATIS/NOTAM messages, short staffed, etc, regarding the restriction on traffic in the terminal environment.

[Cessna driver]

Edmonton is pretty good, never have a problem getting in, even when it is extremely busy.

Great job Edm TML!

[leftoftrack]

Request a pop-up after the initial denial upon entering cancel the chronic staffing issues (max overtime) that Winnipeg deals with should be dealt with by closing the centre and consolidating it to a location where staffing isn't an issue. Remember your paying their salary and their not providing you an appropriate level of service

[ahramin]

I actually had excellent service from YYC TML a couple months ago under extremely trying circumstances for the controller.

[kev994]

Request a pop-up after the initial denial upon entering cancel the chronic staffing issues (max overtime) that Winnipeg deals with should be dealt with by closing the centre and consolidating it to a location where staffing isn't an issue. Remember your paying their salary and their not providing you an appropriate level of service

I tried that in YWG a couple days ago... I was politely told to stuff it.

[leftoftrack]

If theit not going to give you an IFR head directly toward the field and remind these guys that despite the name controller their really just suggesters. Is enforcement going to come after someone who tried both Ifr and vfr?

[Cat Driver]

Is enforcement going to come after someone who tried both Ifr and vfr?

It all depends on who you are.

Ask C.S. how that works.

[kev994]

If theit not going to give you an IFR head directly toward the field and remind these guys that despite the name controller their really just suggesters. Is enforcement going to come after someone who tried both Ifr and vfr?

I think the ATIS said something to the effect of VFR Traffic stay below 3000 in the terminal area... ie they want you to go straight to tower

[Married a Canadian]

If theit not going to give you an IFR head directly toward the field and remind these guys that despite the name controller their really just suggesters

Staffing issues or not in other centres...that type of comment is just plain stupid.
I woudn't usually respond to trolling...but if you really think doing something like you "suggest" makes for a safe aviation environment...then try it and see how the air traffic control suggesters take to it.

[leftoftrack]

If theit not going to give you an IFR head directly toward the field and remind these guys that despite the name controller their really just suggesters

Staffing issues or not in other centres...that type of comment is just plain stupid.
I woudn't usually respond to trolling...but if you really think doing something like you "suggest" makes for a safe aviation environment...then try it and see how the air traffic control suggesters take to it.

Their going to key their mike in anger? Ultimately they will make room for you. Enforcement isn't going to care as long as you try both Ifr and vfr and maybe they may begin to do something about the staffing levels that they have been running at for the last decade

[photofly]

Request a pop-up after the initial denial upon entering cancel the chronic staffing issues (max overtime) that Winnipeg deals with should be dealt with by closing the centre and consolidating it to a location where staffing isn't an issue. Remember your paying their salary and their not providing you an appropriate level of service

I tried that in YWG a couple days ago... I was politely told to stuff it.

Call up FSS and file in the air?

[Rookie50]

I find YYZ excellent and patient, Ifr or VFR, busy or not. Ifr does get priority, which I have no issue with.

Also dealt with yvr terminal, admitted to the class c, and were very helpful to a pilot unfamiliar with the area.

I think it's a good idea to arrange a tour with your local terminal and have a brief chat, if they will do it, for the active pilots. One learns a lot.

[leftoftrack]

What about the eastern Canadian centers?

[photofly]

I find YYZ excellent and patient, Ifr or VFR, busy or not. Ifr does get priority, which I have no issue with.

YYZ: Excellent and patient while you're in Class E airspace and have the option to clear enroute frequency and turn off the radio and the transponder - but they still won't let you transit the Class C in any meaningful sense whatsoever, not even IFR. As discussed at length in another thread recently.

So in the context of the OP's question: YYZ: null points.

[Rookie50]

I find YYZ excellent and patient, Ifr or VFR, busy or not. Ifr does get priority, which I have no issue with.

YYZ: Excellent and patient while you're in Class E airspace and have the option to clear enroute frequency and turn off the radio and the transponder - but they still won't let you transit the Class C in any meaningful sense whatsoever, not even IFR. As discussed at length in another thread recently.

So in the context of the OP's question: YYZ: null points.

I've transited in actual class C on several occasions IFR, depends on their traffic flow. Think it depends which runways are being used YYZ and porter traffic from YTZ at the time.

[photofly]

See your previous thread where you were trying to cross the lake out of YTZ at some meaningful altitude. Scraps from the table don't count as good service. Do I think Operations at YYZ should be interrupted for a bugsmasher? Of course not. But it's half-hearted praise only them for giving me a climb to 5500 at 7am on a Sunday morning a generous 2nm before I'm in class E and can climb unrestricted regardless.

[Married a Canadian]

but they still won't let you transit the Class C in any meaningful sense whatsoever, not even IFR. As discussed at length in another thread recently.

Define "meaningful sense". If you mean at an altitude that the arrivals and departures in YYZ are going to be at within 20 miles of the airfield...then I am afraid that my boss, the boss at the airlines and the boss of the GTAA is going to probably side with most of my YYZ ATC colleagues on that one.
There is a LOT of flexibility around YYZ (and I don't just say that because I work there). There are all sorts of places to fly at various altitudes that"should" be able to cater for most forms of flying for IFR to VFR, recreational, sightseeing, survey, paradrops, flight training etc.
Between the terminal and the terminal satellite sectors we are able to accomodate MOST requests...and from what I see on a daily basis "most" of the altitude assignments make sense and aircraft are climbed and descended when able and given what is safe when able.

The problem is and I get the gist from your comments is that there is a disconnect between what some pilots think we should accomodate and what we actually safely can.
You mention 7am on a Sunday morning? Are you saying there is no traffic into or out of YYZ at that time of day? If you could let me know where you were and what altitude you wanted I could maybe give you reasons as to why you only got 5500ft. If you were over the lake...then bear in mind that if you are South East, East, South or South West you are on various arrival and departure routes off YYZ. You are not going to be given an altitude that puts you in confliction with any departure.....OR means that said departure has to be vectored an extra 15 miles to bypass you.

See your previous thread where you were trying to cross the lake out of YTZ at some meaningful altitude

In said previous thread I gave the reasons as to why this was difficult to accomplish. You have already stated that Toronto ops shouldn't be affected by a "bugsmasher" so how can ATC safely accomodate such aircraft in close proximity to YYZ. You mention "scraps from the table"...but that table includes YYZ arrivals and departures, YTZ arrivals and departures, YHM..YKZ..YKF...YOO ZBA...etc. Those scraps you mention are probably what is available at the time....either IFR or VFR.

[Married a Canadian]

Just posting ROOKIE50s question from previous thread and my reply to it.
Remember this is in close proximity to YYZ so I would challenge the pilot community to say how we are being unreasonable in this scenario

Can I get a (GA, SE Piston we're talking) climbout either West close to the lakeshore; or a circling climb reasonably close to YTZ, BPOC?

East Departures from CZBA; they send me over the lake too -- have to moniter that but don't think there's another way while maintaining the MEA and separation. Bear in mind I only usually cruise at 7-8000. I always file IFR for longer CC's.

Unfortunately therein lies the problem if you are departing from YTZ and wanting to go north in a single engine prop.
On either east/west configuration at YYZ the arrivals can descend to 8000ft in their airspace (lower once in the early descent areas and arrival box) and departure can climb to 7000ft under the arrival airspace.

There is no "direct" route on either configuration northbound that wouldn't put you in conflict with either departure or arrival traffic. On the 24s you would be going over the arrival box with the straight in fixes being cleared to 8000 and 7000ft...and you also have the traffic that is being sequenced into the downwind from the North, West and South descending from 8000ft.
On the 06s...departure jets are climbing to 5000ft (unless jet turned) before talking to departure...you would have to be above 5000ft before expecting a turn northbound off the island. It would actually be easier on the 06s than on the 24s though as you don't have to be climbed over the lake.

It is not totally beyond the realms of possibility for 7000-8000ft off the island Northbound IFR to work. I would just say that 9 times out of 10 you would most likely get kept low and routed via KZ before being climbed as this keeps you clear of Pearson traffic.

Regarding your comment about departing ZBA. If you are going West then there should be no problem. If you are going north or north east bound you won't be climbed till north of the YYZ arrival or departure traffic and you will be pointed north to keep clear of Pearson. East or South East....it will be over the lake everytime....climbing along the shoreline puts you in conflict with the traffic mentioned above.
Hope this helps some.

Remember that it only takes one arrival or departure off YYZ for you to be in conflict with them. Not mentioned in the above is where you are in relation to the departures when over the lake.

[photofly]

I understand the issues, I've visited Toronto Centre, and I've spoken to the staff there. I've seen how hard everyone works to accommodate requests, especially when the weather is questionable. I'm not complaining about the service around the terminal area. But in terms of the question asked at the top of the thread, unless you are inbound to YYZ there's no service offered in the terminal area.

I'm not complaining at all in fact. And nobody said unreasonable, either. I'm just not offering applause at YYZ's ability seamlessly to mix light VFR traffic through the Toronto class C - because you don't.

[Married a Canadian]

I'm just not offering applause at YYZ's ability seamlessly to mix light VFR traffic through the Toronto class C - because you don't.

We do...and if you have visited you should know we do. What you are saying is we don't mix light VFR traffic through Toronto class C at an altitude you find acceptable.

I will ask you these questions.

1 Where do you want to be and at what altitude
2 What configuration is Toronto on when you want to be at said altitude.

We want the pilot community to understand why some things are just not feasible or easy to accomodate. You say there is NO service offered in the terminal area. As someone who works the terminal area....I dispute that and want to find out what you think NO service means.

[photofly]

Fair enough.

The things I'm likely to be interested in are basically the same as Rookie:

- essentially unrestricted climbs out of CYTZ to up to in any direction. I don't expect to be cleared all at once, but restricted westbound to 2000 until nearly into the Hamilton zone doesn't float my boat, sorry!
- maintaining 4500 southbound from say CYQA over the top of CYKZ
- inbound over the lake from Buffalo at something like 10k until 5 south of CYTZ.
- occasionally transit eg Kingston to Brantford without a great detour north, or descend to 2000 along the lakeshore.
- last time into CYTZ on an IFR flight plan the controller was so eager to clear me for the visual, he denied me the RNAV as requested, and cleared me for the visual ignoring the fact I was in IMC at the time. God forbid I should actually *want* an RNAV approach!

On the positive side, whenever I have to do a photo flight inside the YYZ control zone, it has been arranged with a minimum of fuss. But strictly speaking that's not in the terminal class C.

I understand that these things are simply not possible many times, and I'm not giving you a hard time over it. I know where the priorities are, and taking a disinterested view, they are as they should be.

But I can't applaud you for great service when the service I seek isn't offered.

[Married a Canadian]

- essentially unrestricted climbs out of CYTZ to up to in any direction. I don't expect to be cleared all at once, but restricted westbound to 2000 until nearly into the Hamilton zone doesn't float my boat, sorry!
- maintaining 4500 southbound from say CYQA over the top of CYKZ
- inbound over the lake from Buffalo at something like 10k until 5 south of CYTZ.
- occasionally transit eg Kingston to Brantford without a great detour north, or descend to 2000 along the lakeshore.
- last time into CYTZ on an IFR flight plan the controller was so eager to clear me for the visual, he denied me the RNAV as requested, and cleared me for the visual ignoring the fact I was in IMC at the time. God forbid I should actually *want* an RNAV approach!

OK in relation to the above.

1 Even Porter dosen't get unrestricted climbs in any direction off YTZ. If you are serious about that on in relation to where YTZ in relation to YYZ then there is a bit of a lack of understanding from the pilot community here. Both on the 06s and the 24s...anything above 3000ft within 10 miles of YYZ is in the way of some departure/arrival track. Unless you are in an aircraft that can give us a good rate of climb...you aren't climbing off YTZ in any direction to any altitude you want.

2 4500 over YKZ? On the 24s?? Please!! I thought you said you had visited the centre. YKZ is right at 5000 g/s point on the 24s and if we have any straight ins over IMEBA and RAGID that is what they are descending to. On the 06s....it is a bit easier to accommodate that so long as you are staying on a south easterly heading. If you want to turn south from YKZ then you are right in the way of the departures which are climbing to 5000 off both 05 and 06L. 150 heading from Buttonville at 4500 and above is not out the question....I would always recommend asking from that (when YYZ is on the 06s). On the 24s...it ain't happening I am afraid unless you are above 8000ft at least...

3 10000ft over the lake from KBUF. 10000ft is an arrival and departure altitude. If you are in a low performer you are in that airspace for a long period of time. YYZ dosen't go long periods of time with no traffic. That altitude might work on the 24s actually if you wanted to transit south to north. Staying East of YYZ and YTZ would keep you above the arrivals and give departure something to work with. If you want descent south of the island...Porter is pushed down low 25 miles out from the island....departure isn't supposed to vector guys all over the sky to avoid a VFR zone transit.

3 Kingston to Brantford. Depends on the altitude you want and whether or not you want to go right through the arrival box.

It is interesting to see you say that you have done afew photo surveys recently with no problems. There has been one this summer which has been denied every time so far....they want to operate at 4000ft just to the east of Downsview. VFR or IFR this is not a good place to be in relation to YYZ.
You are saying the service you want isn't offered....but if you go and talk to the GTAA, the airlines and my bosses....you will most likely get met with the same responses I have offered you. You can't expect to get what you are asking for within 15 miles of Canada's busiest airport.
If you know what you want isn't always possible then that means the odds of you getting it are going to be low. So to expect "great service" when the odds aren't in your favour is slightly at odds really. It also isn't because ATC are just being frivolous (especially not in YYZ)
It is like people that go to Disneyworld in peak season and then complain that the lineups and the crowds are too long. Flying close to YYZ is the same deal.

[photofly]

If you know what you want isn't always possible then that means the odds of you getting it are going to be low. So to expect "great service" when the odds aren't in your favour is slightly at odds really.

I don't expect great service and I don't get great service. That was the point I've been making for the last dozen posts.

So we're all square.

[Legacy14]

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