To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

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Gino Under
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by Gino Under »

Did you say Canjet pilots about to be furloughed (we usually say laid off in Canada BTW) are scheduled for an August ground school at Sunwing?
What for? The NG?

I've been reading since this argument began that SW only hires type rated crew. If our CJ friends join SW with a type rating have to attend a ground school for the NG then why aren't OTS Canadian pilots being hired and given this training?

Here's what my sketch of this 'C.R.A.P.' looks like.
For every TFW (who gives a... about reciprocity?) who takes up a position on the flight deck of a SW aircraft a Canadian pilot is adversely affected! Whether they work for this company or not. The opportunity for a Canadian pilot to enter the jet transport segment of our industry is denied. Those denied opportunities translate into a smaller number of home grown experienced pilots being eligible to supply carriers like SW which will result in a greater dependancy on a foreign pilot supply.

This whole situation is complete bullsh*t yet some still try to justify, validate and legitimize the practice.
Absolute bullsh*t!
This practice is a cancer to pilot employment opportunities in Canada, nothing more and it needs to be stopped!

Gino Under :smt023
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gonnabeapilot
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by gonnabeapilot »

Gino Under wrote:Did you say Canjet pilots about to be furloughed (we usually say laid off in Canada BTW) are scheduled for an August ground school at Sunwing?
What for? The NG?

I've been reading since this argument began that SW only hires type rated crew. If our CJ friends join SW with a type rating have to attend a ground school for the NG then why aren't OTS Canadian pilots being hired and given this training?
I know there are quite a few threads/posts regarding this issue but as you seem to feel so strongly about this topic, I would encourage you to go back and take the time to actually read through some of them. SW does not and has never only hired type rated crews. There are some Canjet pilots about to be laid off who will be in ground school at Sunwing and will be able to take part in some modified training because they already have an NG type rating (is this not a good thing??) There will also be a mix of about 40 off the street 703/704/705 Canadian pilots who will be receiving brand new type ratings on the 737 NG and will be joining those Canjet pilots on the line at Sunwing this winter. (soooo your point is? :roll: )
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tiscali
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by tiscali »

It is so sad having applied many times at the company you want to work for and don't get even an email saying we are sorry but we don't want you....I hope next year to have another chance. I hope...

all the best and congratulations to all of those applicants that landed the job and all the best of luck to the others, including me :)
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Gino Under
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by Gino Under »

gonnabeapilot

Since you missed my point, which I don't believe was subliminal, I'll say it again,

For every TFW (who gives a... about reciprocity?) who takes up a position on the flight deck of a SW aircraft a Canadian pilot is adversely affected! Whether they work for this company or not. The opportunity for a Canadian pilot to enter the jet transport segment of our industry is denied. Those denied opportunities translate into a smaller number of home grown experienced pilots being eligible to supply carriers like SW which will result in a greater dependancy on a foreign pilot supply.

Until SW is out of the TFW business altogether, (from the many posts so far, to which you refer me to, that doesn't seem to be the case) hiring a token number of Canadians is out of nothing more than an admission of guilt. Industry leaders lead. Con artists try to pull a fast one. Which is exactly what SW has been doing to government agencies ever since this bullsh*t began. Yet many, presumably Canadians, are trying to justify and condone the practice.
Bullsh*t!!!

While the pilots mentioned in your response are, at least, a step in the right direction, it's taken the exhaustive efforts of Mr. Hudicourt to at least guilt SW into some movement in a more positive direction.

Gino Under :smt023
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OPEC6-Heavy
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by OPEC6-Heavy »

Hudicourt has "zero" to do with our hiring practices... Its called the continuous expansion of Sunwing's successful business and Hudicourt's worst nightmare. :wink:
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Gino Under
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by Gino Under »

...like I've said, so many times before...

What a fool believes.

Gino Under :partyman:
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777LR
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by 777LR »

I heard that the new hires are not getting paid till they complete their PPC...what's up with that?!
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complexintentions
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by complexintentions »

OPEC6-Heavy wrote:Hudicourt has "zero" to do with our hiring practices... Its called the continuous expansion of Sunwing's successful business and Hudicourt's worst nightmare. :wink:
Mmm-hmnm. Sure. Sunwing had an attack of conscience and decided to modify their practices out of the kindness of their corporate heart. I don't think so.

Maybe the government would have woken up from their TFW coma eventually anyway, who knows. But to suggest that the efforts of M. Hudicourt had nothing to do with it is a bit obtuse.
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aerosexual
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by aerosexual »

complexintentions wrote:Mmm-hmnm. Sure. Sunwing had an attack of conscience and decided to modify their practices out of the kindness of their corporate heart. I don't think so.

Maybe the government would have woken up from their TFW coma eventually anyway, who knows. But to suggest that the efforts of M. Hudicourt had nothing to do with it is a bit obtuse.
It's true. Sunwing corporate was concerned about their image on AvCanada, so they decided to expand their business further, requiring the hiring of additional pilots in order to satisfy Gilles and his followers. All Canadian pilots owe Gilles a lot of gratitude for Sunwing filling its airplanes, buying more hotels down south, thus requiring more pilots, and hiring them. Merci Gilles!
777LR wrote:I heard that the new hires are not getting paid till they complete their PPC...what's up with that?!
PPC date is the effective start date and also the date in which the full salary kicks in. Pilots are paid a good per diem from their start of training until their PPC date. It's really not that bad, but AvCanada will twist it into something scandalous.
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777LR
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by 777LR »

aerosexual wrote: PPC date is the effective start date and also the date in which the full salary kicks in. Pilots are paid a good per diem from their start of training until their PPC date. It's really not that bad, but AvCanada will twist it into something scandalous.
If the full salary kicks in at PPC date then what is the salary from the start of training to the PPC date?
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monkey
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by monkey »

heard somewhere around 100 a day
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aerosexual
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by aerosexual »

monkey wrote:heard somewhere around 100 a day
That's correct, which works to $1,500 every two weeks tax free from the start of training until the PPC date.
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FICU
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by FICU »

If there was no TFW program allowing foreign airline pilots in Canada it's safe to assume there would be no Sunwing Airlines in Canada.
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monkey
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by monkey »

Seriously FICU, going on a fishing expedition?

How's the merger going? DOH right as per ALPA.
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FICU
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by FICU »

monkey wrote:Seriously FICU, going on a fishing expedition?

How's the merger going? DOH right as per ALPA.
Don't see you denying that without TFWs Sunwing would exist.

If you know anything about ALPA and mergers you would know ALPA steps aside with regards to seniority list integration, nice try though. :roll:
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whipline
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by whipline »

I'll deny it FICU. Sunwing only started using tfw after canjet did it.
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whipline
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by whipline »

Hey complex. You plan on returning to Canada after your done in the ME? Anyone else think pilots like complex should be handed a massive tax bill to return? I'm pretty sure you used our health, education and infrastructure without paying for it? I think you should be either paying tax here or give up your canadian citizenship.

I believe I saw gloating about your pay? Your kidding right?

You want to throw stones let's go.
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complexintentions
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by complexintentions »

You sound like an angry little man. Throwing stones? Ya lost me. Your aggressiveness only helps to support my point that Gilles' campaign has had some results. Gloating? Expat pay is what it is. Sorry if that makes you defensive.

Pretty hard to use any infrastructure in Canada when you haven't lived there in many years and rarely visit lol. But I cut all ties when I left so no tax liabilities. To be honest the health care at EK is far better than anything in Canada.

If you understood the concept of "expatriate" you might realize that by definition it means a citizen of one country working in another. Perhaps you were confused and mixed up expat with emigrant? Oh and when discussing citizenship, it's considered proper to capitalize "Canadian". Just sayin'.

Considering how a bunch of pilots ended up in the ME due to CanJet folding up for the umpteenth time, your anger is amusingly ironic. Better be careful what you wish for, you could be next! :mrgreen:
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tiscali
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by tiscali »

"Angry little man" sounds a little derogatory. Doesn't it?
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

I've heard that when some people inquired to Sunwing about why they were not hiring Canadian seasonal captains while offering seasonal captain positions to Temporary Foreign Worker pilots, they were told that Sunwing does not intend to hire ANY seasonal Captains this next winter, foreign or Canadian, and that all Captain positions will be filled by an aggressive upgrade program within their permanent First Officers, who will become temporary captains during the winter.

Let me see how those numbers work out:

Sunwing had roughly 210 full time Canadian pilots by the end of the 2013/2014 season.
They plan on hiring 40 to 50 seasonal Canadian pilots in the hiring process that is under way. That would bring their rosters to about 260 Canadian pilots.
They made an application for 120 TFW pilots, all of which would be First Officers if the statement above is true.
That would bring their total rosters to 380 pilots. Half of these, or a little more than half, would need to be captains, meaning Sunwing would need to have at least 200 Canadian captains.

So of the approximate 210 permanent full time pilots that Sunwing employed on May 31 2014, 200 would be captains during the 2014/2015 winter season.

Does anyone buy it ?
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Rogerdodger2
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by Rogerdodger2 »

Foreign Workers are not SW employees.
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rudder
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by rudder »

Gilles,

The UNIFOR/SW collective agreement not permit seasonal pilots being employed as CAPT but it does permit DEC and temporary upgrades so long as they have numbers on the permanent SW pilot seniority list.

Winter 2013/2014 commenced with a permanent seniority list of 210 which included 121 CAPT. This number shrunk during the season due to pilot attrition (approximately 12 FO and 1 CAPT resigned). In May of 2014 approximately 13 seasonal FO's from the winter were converted to permanent so the seniority list remained at 210. Since that time, more permanent positions have been offered in the fall to some of last winters remaining seasonal pilots presumably to backfill further attrition. This may or may not increase the permanent seniority list beyond 210.

During the late winter an upgrade bid was run with 26 extra CAPT positions being awarded effective Dec 01st. These upgrades all went to current SW seniority list FO's. Therefore projected CAPT for winter 2014/2015 will be approximately 146 if all upgrade candidates are successful in training.

SW is running 4 initial GS course in August/September for approximately 48 incremental seasonal FO's so the total CDN pilot workforce at SW will be approximately 260-265.

Projected fleet for winter 2014/2015 is 37 aircraft. Summer 2014 fleet is 12.

Winter 2014/2015 TFW application was for 120 foreign pilot work permits (60 crews therefore at least 60 CAPT).

Foreign wet lease will be 5-6 aircraft fully crewed by foreign pilots based in Canada.

The numbers may have changed slightly but are fairly accurate. I am not commenting on whether any of this is right or wrong, fair or unfair. But these are the numbers.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

rudder wrote:Gilles,

The UNIFOR/SW collective agreement not permit seasonal pilots being employed as CAPT but it does permit DEC and temporary upgrades so long as they have numbers on the permanent SW pilot seniority list.
Thanks for the info Rudder. It pretty closely matches what I had.

Just slight correction on your post.

The UNIFOR/SW collective agreement not permit CANADIAN seasonal pilots being employed as CAPT but it does allow FOREIGN Seasonal pilots being employed as Captain.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Rogerdodger2 wrote:Foreign Workers are not SW employees.
From: Montsko, Susan [mailto:susan.montsko@tc.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Guindon, Denis
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 3:05 PM
To: Gilles Hudicourt
Cc: CAIRS / SSQAC_National
Subject: CAIRS RR-1637

Dear Mr. Hudicourt,

As you are aware, your submission regarding Foreign Contract Pilots for Sunwing on November 7, 2012 was entered into the Civil Aviation Issues Reporting System (CAIRS) and assigned reference number RR-1637.

The mandate of the Transport Canada, Civil Aviation Directorate is to verify that operators are complying with the Canadian Aviation Regulations. Every complaint received by our office is reviewed to determine whether an airline operator has acted in compliance with the Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs).

Employment of foreign pilots by Canadian air operators is permitted under the auspices of programs managed by Human Resources and Skills Development Canada (HRSDC Temporary Foreign Workers Program) and by Citizenship and Immigration (CIC Reciprocal Employment Program).

These foreign flight-crew personnel, while employed directly by another company, are under the operational control of and considered to be contract employees of Sunwing or Canjet.


Foreign pilots working for a Canadian air operator are required to receive a Foreign Licence Validation (FLV) from Transport Canada. For the FLV to be granted, the pilot must successfully complete a Pilot Proficiency Check (PPC) with an Approved Check Pilot (ACP). Normally, in preparation for this PPC, the air operator provides training, focusing on company and Canadian procedures, winter operations, etc.

All aircraft and flight crew under the operational control of a Canadian air operator, whether foreign or not, are subject to routine safety and regulatory oversight by Transport Canada, Civil Aviation.

In conclusion, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your views, as all comments we receive are appreciated.

Sincerely,

Captain Denis Guindon
Director
National Operations
Civil Aviation
If Sunwing's TFW pilots were NOT considered contract EMPLOYEES of Sunwing, then the CAIRS I filed on Nov 7, 2012 would be justified and those TFW pilots would not be allowed to fly for Sunwing.

So which is it ? They are contract EMPLOYEES of Sunwing or they are not ?

Let me write a slimy reply for you.

As it pertains to the UNIFOR/SW collective agreement, they are not employees.
As it pertains to Transport Canada regulations they are employees.

How is that for a Sunwing explanation ? I even speak your language now.
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rogerdodger2
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Re: To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

Post by Rogerdodger2 »

You need to understand the difference between a contract employee and an employee. You clearly don't. TFW are contracted out to SW through their employer. They then do work for SW but are not employees. It's so simple yet you continue to twist it around to support you anti SW position. Funny how you had disappeared for a while then come back with this pathetic post just to keep the proverbial kettle boiling. Sad.
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