NavCanada hiring practices vs the airlines

[Illya Kuryakin]

Friend's kid washed out in the last couple of weeks. BTW, nobody got through that particular course! This, I am not making up.
As for overtime....Does ATC not have a limit to the hours they work, like pilots? Or, has the guy vectoring me not been prone for 15 hours?
Illya

[sh*t magnet]

I'd guess it's about 10 to 15% but I'm not sure, I'll get a hold of training some day next week and I'll see what they say for official per centage.

We have maximum hours per 56 day cycle we can work, maximum shift length is 11.5 hours, i can't remember the max hours per 56 days because I don't work enough O/T to come close to it.

Sometimes there are courses where no one makes it, with the law of averages and the way hiring is done sometimes it happens...


and to answer the question from a while ago my course started with 28, picked up some recourses along the way and ultimately finished with six, of those six, four qualified. That was in the mid eighties and there was a lot wrong with training then, it has changed and is still changing.

[HeadingAltitudeSpeed]

We have maximum hours per 56 day cycle we can work, maximum shift length is 11.5 hours, i can't remember the max hours per 56 days because I don't work enough O/T to come close to it.

Max shift length (12 hours) and time between shifts (8-10 hours) is governed by the collective agreement. TC does not impose the same rest requirements as pilots.

Max hours of work is governed by Canada Labour code and and is about an additional 112 hours per 56 day rotation.

[wordstwice]

Ive always worked in a chronically short staffed specialty and I can tell you with certainty we wish we had more people who qualified. Coming to work always short staffed and not being able to get the vacation leave due to staffing issues get tiring really quick!

I have never seen a person who has been let go from training, whether it be a day one or at the latter stages of their training, due to any reason other than their inability to meet the required standard. To have the aptitude to be a qualified controller isnt a light switch with either an "on" or "off" setting. There are varying degrees of the amount of aptitude individuals have and therefore sometimes trainees spend along time in training or very little. The ones who spend a long time training could have been let go early on but the company tries to do everything possible to see them succeed.

Also, although some people join Nav Canada and take the job and training very seriously I have witnessed an increasing trend of young guys and gals doing the opposite. Many people do not take it serious enough, still party on their days off, show up to work not properly studied, and wonder why things didn't work out for them in the end.

So this thread needs to stop making the accusation that these individuals are somehow owed something just because they applied and paid for the initial course....they are given what they are owed and then some and Nav Canda does not allow them to be fired to maintain overtime.

As far as success rates, only Nav Canada head office truly knows that data and any responses here are far from empirical.

Cheers.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Sometimes there are courses where no one makes it, with the law of averages and the way hiring is done sometimes it happens...
g.

I'd sort of think this would have to indicate a problem. Either the prescreening needs to be overhauled, or you need somebody else teaching your courses? I've never been on any course, on anything, anywhere, where everybody flunked out.
Well okay, grade four was tough....but c'mon, "sometimes it happens....."
Not trying to pick fights here, but somebody isn't doing a very good job.
Illya

[Gilles Hudicourt]

And these failed candidates are people who were interviewed, tested and screened before beginning their course.
If most countries were to have an 80% success rate and Canada were to have an 80% failure rate, should we not draw some conclusion from these numbers ?
With an 80, 90 or 95% wash out rate, either the selection interview and aptitude testing process are flawed, or the training is flawed if not both.

Come on people, how many started the initial course with you, and of those, how many completed OJT ? We need some numbers?

No one is throwing unfounded accusations, this is a forum where everyone pitches in with their input.

I have a feeling that candidates are beeing treated unfairly, if not abused by a quasi-qovernment entity (its not a for profit corporation that I can purchase or buy shares of), and if such quasi-qovernment entities are allowed to get away with abusing people, how can we fight similar abuse by airlines and pilot training facilities that are profit driven ?

[lilfssister]

Gilles, I think you need to clarify whether you mean the percentage from start of classroom training versus starting on the job training. The classroom portion you pass the tests and evals and you continue training, or you fail these and you do not continue training.

[Braun]

6 on 11 made it and 1 person quit. So 60% success rate.

One of the 5 candidates who didn't make was due to severe attitude problems.

Overtime protection....haha please....I know more people who HAVE to work more overtime than want too. By the way ( max 96Hrs per 56 days period max shift length 12Hrs).

I don't see how they are abused, you have ALL the info before applying, I had to wo work during training to be able to pay for gas but I knew the potential for an amazing career after was there and never looked back. Is the system ideal? No. There is no perfect way. I find it hilarious that people say Americans have such better controllers than us, from working with very busy US low level and high level sectors I disagree, but hey, who am I to judge.

[Braun]

Also I read the thread on PPRUNE and things aren't very rose on the other side of the pond or down south. 4 years to qualify....ok not going to happen. I do training in my specialty and will never qualify someone who isn't up to par just for staffing needs. In the US training times are MUCH long than ours and they go to college for 3(?) years I believe.

[kevenv]

It is not easy to cease train people on OJT. They are generally given every opportunity to succeed. There are reams of paperwork for each trainee. They get daily training reports, end of each cycle training reports and end of segment reports. If someone is struggling with some area, they are interviewed and counseled with the goal of finding a way to have them over come the difficulties they are experiencing. Then they are given additional time to do so. Once they have over come their issues they resume where they left off in the process. If someone makes it to the end and is then cease trained it is because they were given every opportunity to succeed. You cannot, I repeat, cannot cease train someone without properly documenting their lack of progress or the difficulties they have. Anyone who says the made it to the end and were cease trained for no reason is lying. The trainee keeps their training record during training. They know how they are doing. It's all in the file they hold. On top of that there are interviews along the way with non ATC learning specialists, especially when they are having problems.

As for charging for the test and training... same as pilots, it's a race to the bottom. If no one applied they would change the way they do it. As it stands there are far more applicants than there are training opportunities. This is no surprise. It is well documented on a number of boards. Anyone who goes through the process and is ultimately unsuccessful and then claims it's all BS is being a bit disingenuous.

Over the past 10 years or so I have averaged about 8 overtime shifts per YEAR. I do not train people nor do I act as an OJI.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Gilles, I think you need to clarify whether you mean the percentage from start of classroom training versus starting on the job training. The classroom portion you pass the tests and evals and you continue training, or you fail these and you do not continue training.

Okay, if a candidate is selected to start training, a failure in the classroom still counts as a wash out. You can sugar coat it all you want but, as in flying, if you fail the ground school (classroom training) it's still a fail/wash out. So, if 100 people (they have gone through the interview/screening process, and been "hired") start in the classroom (this includes tests and evaluations) how many end up as licensed controllers at the end of the day? I'm guessing, less than 6-10?
Illya

[Braun]

Anyone who "washes out" before the sim/ on the job training portion lacks maturity and motivation because ANYONE can study the theory and pass, no excuse. The practical part is where people either have it or don't and we give EVERY oppurtunity to trainees to make it. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or hasn't been through the process.

[HeadingAltitudeSpeed]

Anyone who "washes out" before the sim/ on the job training portion lacks maturity and motivation because ANYONE can study the theory and pass, no excuse. The practical part is where people either have it or don't and we give EVERY oppurtunity to trainees to make it. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or hasn't been through the process.

Well said!

[Illya Kuryakin]

Anyone who "washes out" before the sim/ on the job training portion lacks maturity and motivation because ANYONE can study the theory and pass, no excuse. The practical part is where people either have it or don't and we give EVERY oppurtunity to trainees to make it. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or hasn't been through the process.

Seems the reality would beg to differ. Washing out before SIM/OJT, is still washing out? Your system has obvious flaws. No?
Illya

[Braun]

Anyone who "washes out" before the sim/ on the job training portion lacks maturity and motivation because ANYONE can study the theory and pass, no excuse. The practical part is where people either have it or don't and we give EVERY oppurtunity to trainees to make it. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or hasn't been through the process.

Seems the reality would beg to differ. Washing out before SIM/OJT, is still washing out? Your system has obvious flaws. No?
Illya

Of course it is, the course starts with a set amount of people and if, for example, 6 out of 12 fail the theory portion and then 3 out of 6 qualify your check out rate is 25%. Which is not true because there is no way people can fail the theory without not putting effort and time in studying. Which is unacceptable in this line of work. Period.

Also I said it above the system has flaws. I am an OJI and go regularly into the simulator and I do everything I can to get candidates to succeed and qualify. There is no secret recipe to this.

There are 3 categories of trainees IMHO

- Those who will make it no matter what
- Those who will make it with a lot of effort and good coaching/support
- Those who will never make it, no matter what

The problem is it is impossible to know what category you are in until you are well into training. It sucks but it is the truth. Our job is to make sure the middle group acquires the skills and confidence levels to be good ATC and not only for the first 2 years of their career but for the next 20-35 years. If you qualify marginal people I guarantee as time goes on it gets worse not better, we've all seen it. I want to avoid that.

Bottom line: Give me 10 trainees of the first two groups and 90% will check out. Problem is we get a lot from the bottom group.

[hydro]

I would say my center has a 35%+ success rate from people starting the school, and 50%+ success rate from people who advanced to On the job training since I've been here. Success rates seem to have been improving quite a bit lately and the numbers are probably much better recently.

My own course would be 50% or 100% depending on how you count it. 6 people, and 3 withdrew (less than a third of the way through). Generally a low percentage of people withdraw. The 3 of us left all checked out. Depending on how you count withdrawals you could skew the numbers one way or the other.

I have not seen of anyone being CT'ed for overtime protection. Our specialty was already over staffed before my group all qualified. However people who have been around for a while do talk of people who got rid of people for petty reasons many years ago. This is not the same training environment as the 80's and 90's.

[hydro]

Either the prescreening needs to be overhauled, or you need somebody else teaching your courses?

Over the past 20 years there have been 3 different prescreening programs. Transport Canada, then it was contracted out to SHL and then internal people again. If there is an effective way to screen people based on a test and a couple interviews the company would love to hear it. Personal suitability can be probably judged within a reasonable degree within a month or two but by that point they are already in.

And yes I agree sometimes you need someone else teaching the course.

[Speed Limit Order]

VFR course started with 12, 6 graduated to OJT and 4 qualified. This was back at NCTI before training was regionalized.
Controllers at my unit, including myself, have done 13.5hr shifts in "emergency situations" (lack of staff) so not sure about the 12hr max rule.
Last year worked 1 OT about every 2 weeks, this year rate is higher.

[Speed Limit Order]

VFR course started with 12, 6 graduated to OJT and 4 qualified. This was back at NCTI before training was regionalized.
Controllers at my unit, including myself, have done 13.5hr shifts in "emergency situations" (lack of staff) so not sure about the 12hr max rule.
Last year worked 1 OT about every 2 weeks, this year rate is higher.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles, I think you need to clarify whether you mean the percentage from start of classroom training versus starting on the job training. The classroom portion you pass the tests and evals and you continue training, or you fail these and you do not continue training.

Many people show interest, are tested and interviewed. After those that have failed the aptitude test or failed the interview are put aside, a certain number are left who pay to begin the paid part of the training $4500.

I would like to know how many of those who paid the $4500 and began the theoretical course, not only completed the course but completed the OJT and made it as controllers.

[Braun]

All the numbers people have been posting so far are people who started a course not people who are in the initial testing for application, that doesn't count.

Also keep in mind that the trainees who don't make are refunded a certain amount of that fee if they are cease trained or quit up until they start getting paid. After that the full amount is non refundable.

[Married a Canadian]

Most recent YYZ terminal course.
6 people on course. All 6 made it to the sim. 3 people made it out of the simulator. 2 of them checked out on the floor. That would be a fair indicator over the last few years.

Nav Canada has tried the experienced controller program and found that it didn't save the company money or time, if it saved them money they'd be all over it

This has always been an "interesting" subject to me given that I came over on this exact program. All the Brits that came to YYZ checked out and found no problems and gave NAV Canada the "numbers" that they needed for bodies on seats.
Elsewhere in the country there were...shall we say..."issues"! The determination of "time and money" was not made from the Eastern seaboard. As much as it pains me to say it the optics of what happened with the experienced controller program elsewhere in the country did not lend themself to showing the training programs of other units in a good light.
I have been "corrected" on this in the past....I tend to disagree with said corrections.

[rookieatc]

Out of the 4 people I started training with, 2 of us got licenses. In the end it comes down to whether or not you can do the job, you can study all you want but you have to have the right mindset to be able to do the job on a consistent basis and in all different situations. Its not an old boys club like it may have been 20 years ago. If people don't make it it's because they couldn't do the job, period. I've even seen people who can't quite cut it be re trained in a different specialty where they might excel, the idea of some sort of inner circle keeping everyone out is completely absurd, almost offensive. I've heard it costs NavCanada up to $1,000,000 to get a license out of an ab initio, so the $3000 or so I spent to get one is OK with me.

Speaking of offensive, you say American controllers are better than us, that may be true. It might also be true that all these companies hiring pilots from overseas might consider them more talented than yourself and other Canadian pilots. Just a thought Gilles.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Speaking of offensive, you say American controllers are better than us, that may be true. It might also be true that all these companies hiring pilots from overseas might consider them more talented than yourself and other Canadian pilots. Just a thought Gilles.

What ? Where ? Who ?
Where did I say anything about American controllers ?
Where did that come from ?
More talented Foreign pilots ? Where does that come in and based on what ?

[rookieatc]

If the overtime protection thing is an issue, use contract personal to teach, test and check out new controllers? Simple fix. Nothing to lose by NOT washing out 95% of your students. Looked it up. USA wash out rates are 15-20%. This'll piss off somebody, but they have better controllers.
We rant all the time about rest intervals for flight crews.....why are controllers even getting overtime? They do their hours...go home.
Illya


http://www.nbcnews.com/id/42381483/.../ ... ashes-out/
Apr 1, 2011 - 1 in 5 air traffic control trainees washes out ... of air traffic controllers hired by the Federal Aviation Administration in recent years washed out ... FAA had previously estimated a 9 percent attrition rate for new controllers in 2009.

Sorry Gilles, I had you confused with Illya. You have my apologies, I guess I got a little over defensive for a moment.