screwed, again

[digits_]

Because Canada already has one of the worst productivity rates

What do you mean with that ?

[BTD]

Because Canada already has one of the worst productivity rates - why make it worse when the rules aren't THAT bad. Planes aren't falling out of the sky...and after the new rules are in effect, you think you'll notice a major change in rates of incidents and accidents?

If the rules are adhered to and enforced, I do think there will be a reduced number of accidents where fatigue is listed as a contributing factor. I am for science based adjustments to our duty regulations. Ones that match up to a global standard. Not an arbitrary reduction to duty times.

Click on the arrows to read more about each of 12 accidents linked to pilot fatigue. Red indicates a fatal crash, while green marks accidents where all passengers survived. All information is based on Transportation Safety Board of Canada reports.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/pilot-fat ... s-1.910002

"I have survived for the last X years under these rules, therefore they must be safe."

"Hey, I was on Omaha beach during the Normandy Invasions, and I survived, so it must have been safe."

[Johnny#5]

Because Canada already has one of the worst productivity rates

What do you mean with that ?

I guess I shouldn't say it's one of the worst but its not great. http://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/detai ... apita.aspx

I do think there will be a reduced number of accidents where fatigue is listed as a contributing factor.

I can see that I suppose - but I wonder if some pilots will not worry about prone rest as much when they have the advantage of new shorter duty days? Some might not be as diligent about getting 7-8 hrs solid sleep if tomorrow's duty day is capped at only 9 hours instead of 14.

[Redneck_pilot86]

I've highlighted the parts of your own CARs quote that you are obviously overlooking. If you are doing something else, you are breaking the law. If you are of the mentality that you are above the law, then more laws are not going to change anything for you.

I'll say it again, we don't need more laws, we need more pilots that can stick up for themselves.

If this is what you are doing, then you are breaking the law. A new law isn't going to change anything. The law is 8 hours prone rest in a suitable accomodation, time to get to and from work and feed yourself are not part of that 8 hours, and they do not start as soon as the fuel stops flowing, they start when you are FREE FROM DUTY.

This country does not need more and more regulation, it needs less and less people that can't look after themselves and need some lawyer to protect them from their big scary boss.

Good for you tough guy, you seem to be above it all.
The problem with duty and rest, is that you have to read between the lines, that is what they all do. It is not up to people to look after themselves, this is not a banana republic.

700.16 (1) Subject to subsections (5) and (7), no air operator shall assign a flight crew member for flight duty time, and no flight crew member shall accept such an assignment, if the flight crew member’s flight duty time will, as a result, exceed 14 consecutive hours in any 24 consecutive hours. Where the flight is conducted under Subpart 4 or 5 using an aircraft other than a helicopter, flight duty time shall include 15 minutes for post-flight duties.
(2) Where the flight is conducted under Subpart 4 or 5 using an aircraft other than a helicopter or a DeHavilland DHC-6 aircraft pursuant to the Commercial Air Service Standards, a flight crew member shall receive at least 24 consecutive hours free from flight duty following 3 consecutive flight duty time assignments that exceed 12 consecutive hours unless the flight crew member has received at least 24 consecutive hours free from flight duty between each flight duty time assignment.
(3) Following a flight duty time assignment, an air operator shall provide a flight crew member with the minimum rest period and any additional rest period required by this Part.
(4) A flight crew member shall use a rest period provided pursuant to subsection (3) and section 700.19 to obtain the necessary rest and shall be adequately rested prior to reporting for flight duty.
(5) Where flight duty time includes a rest period, flight duty time may be extended beyond the maximum flight duty time referred to in subsection (1) by one-half the length of the rest period referred to in paragraph (b), to a maximum of 3 hours, if
(a) the air operator provides the flight crew member with advance notice of the extension of flight duty time;
(b) the air operator provides the flight crew member with a rest period of at least 4 consecutive hours in suitable accommodation; and
(c) the flight crew member’s rest is not interrupted by the air operator during the rest period.
.....

This is how it is working:
The boss says, ok we give you 15 minutes after engine shutdown to finish the paperwork and then you are FREE FROM DUTY, they admit that you can't teleport right away in your bed, so they might give you an extra hour (if you are lucky).

From the time you leave the company to the time you open the hangar door back in the morning, it makes it a good 9 hours and 15 minutes.
This is 703. When one of the senior pilot I know got fed up and went to talk to TC inspectors on the so called rest regulations during an audit.

He explained the situation.

The answer he got was:
TC: 'Can't do anything, it is the law!'
He said: ' But we are tired'...
They said... 'It is the law and nothing can be done to change your situation...'

Now yes, say no to your boss, I am tired, I am not doing it. He will say fine, no problem.
What his look will be saying: Well, you know your captain upgrade... you know that nice contract you wanted to do ... you know those days off you requested... We can't rely on you.

The limit to corporate greed is employees who say no when it's unsafe. It's the traveling public who choose not to pay peanuts to fly on unsafe airlines, or where they have the perception that it is unsafe. Regulations are just a protective shield that companies hide behind after an accident report is published. Hence why pilots are often hung out to dry after an accident.

Most people have no idea when they buy an airplane ticket if it is safe or not, they just go for the cheapest or airlines they like the most.

The business standards and technology won't be improving or upgrading on it's own because it cost money, maybe a few on their own will, but most won't.
Because our knowledge is better day after day, laws have to change in order to bring higher standards, higher safety and it makes changes fair for everyone.

Without regulations, some operators would probably send their guys in the clouds with an artificial horizon and a garmin area 500.
Few years ago they forced the 703 operators to install TAWS in aircrafts and operators did it because they did not have the choice, it brought extra safety to the crews doing let's say ... non precision approaches at nights on 4000' runways.

[timel]

I've highlighted the parts of your own CARs quote that you are obviously overlooking. If you are doing something else, you are breaking the law. If you are of the mentality that you are above the law, then more laws are not going to change anything for you.

I'll say it again, we don't need more laws, we need more pilots that can stick up for themselves.

(4) A flight crew member shall use a rest period provided pursuant to subsection (3) and section 700.19 to obtain the necessary rest and shall be adequately rested prior to reporting for flight duty.

We all know that employers do hire the minimum staff to do the maximum job. This is the nature of business. What is stopping them from squizzing the work force? Laws.

What I am telling you is the RAC is allowing an employer to have a pilot show up at the hangar 9-10 hrs after engine shutdown and they will schedule the pilots in order to optimize the work force.
I can't blame them for that, they are businessmen, and they want to be competitive with other airlines who do the same.

Now if I follow your logic of "you stick for yourself", you did an engine shutdown at 21:00 and your boss tells you to show up at work at 6:15 sharp (it can't be delayed), it is a 4 days contract worth good $$$, there are no other pilots available.

Now you drive home, eat, shower as fast as you can, and you can't sleep because your adrenaline isn't going down... You won't get your 8 hours of sleep...
So Redneck_pilot86 if I understand what you are telling me, you will call your boss and tell him you won't be doing the 4 days contract?


Again, the RAC is bullying the pilots and putting them in uncomfortable situations.

What the RAC should say is:
A pilot should be at least free of duty for 12-XX hours after a flight, he should plan at least 8 hours of sleep and he must show up fit for the next flight or whatever science finds acceptable for safety.





Johnny#5, I can't find the numbers for pilot productivity?


Thank you amclean for your post, it is refreshing to read.

[Redneck_pilot86]

Now if I follow your logic of "you stick for yourself", you did an engine shutdown at 21:00 and your boss tells you to show up at work at 6:15 sharp (it can't be delayed), it is a 4 days contract worth good $$$, there are no other pilots available.

Now you drive home, eat, shower as fast as you can, and you can't sleep because your adrenaline isn't going down... You won't get your 8 hours of sleep...
So Redneck_pilot86 if I understand what you are telling me, you will call your boss and tell him you won't be doing the 4 days contract?

The scenario you have made up simply wouldnt happen in any 703 company I have ever worked at. 4 day contracts don't just come out of nowhere, there is some planning involved, customers checking availability, etc. If we were accepting a 4 day contract, then the previous flight would be done by a different pilot in order to allow me proper time to prepare. If that was not an option, we would tell the customer offering the 4 day contract that it couldnt be done until 7, or whatever time we were available. Its aviation, it can ALWAYS be delayed.

[upintheair_]

If you worked at an operation with any sort of professionalism, they would bump the departure a bit. Unless it's medevac, everything can be delayed. And if it's medevac, the scheduling should account for proper rest times with rotating crews, so it *should* be a non issue for them.

[teacher]

And than you get fired for not being a team player and causing trouble. Operators talk a big game and about safety but when it comes down to it money talks and pilots are a dime a dozen. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though. I've worked for some OK outfits BUT ALL OF THEM pushed crew rest to the limits of the law and than some. The only way to be FULLY rested for your next duty period is 12 hours free from duty at home base, period.

I know this because at Jazz our min crew rest is under 12 hours at an out station and you can manage, although barely, 8 hours sleep. Our home base minimum time free from duty is 12 and that is JUST enough time to drive, shower, eat, sleep 8 hours, eat, shower and return to work.

[MUSKEG]

The interpretation and compliance to CARS is directly related to the amount of money to be made on that particular trip. We had fuel haul contracts come up on short notice and it was not pleasant in the office until the aircraft was airborne. Was like they feared the trip would get cancelled before they could mobilize.

[Redneck_pilot86]

And than you get fired for not being a team player and causing trouble.

Then you are better off.

The interpretation and compliance to CARS is directly related to the amount of money to be made on that particular trip. We had fuel haul contracts come up on short notice and it was not pleasant in the office until the aircraft was airborne. Was like they feared the trip would get cancelled before they could mobilize.

How did they get the fuel for you to haul on such short notice? There is no way a big job can come out of thin air without some pre planning to get all the factors lining up at the same time.


I don't want to come across like I am arguing that 14 hour days for 42 straight is a good or safe thing. I am arguing that pil;ots need to stop being the spineless pussies they are and stand up to their bosses (you don't have to do it in a confrontational way, just a "hey man, I'm tired, can we bump that departure back an hour?") What we don't need are all sorts of convoluted regulations where my duty day varies based on what time it starts, or how many legs I fly, etc, etc. Maybe 703 is too broad of a reg set to allow for one set of suitable duty time regulations. I know for sure a pilot will be more fatigued after doing a bunch of approaches to minimums in the dark on a shitty night, vs the guy flying a Caravan on a milk run sched in VFR weather. The guy humping freight into an otter on floats on a windy day will be more fatigued than the guy flying a technician up to a tower and sitting around all day waiting for the repair to be finished. 703 covers a lot of types of flying, from SE Day VFR to ME IFR, pistons, turbines, floats, skis, retractable and fixed wheels, no passengers to 9, no freight to several thousand pounds being hand bombed on and off, as well as the rotary side. I don't know what the solution is, I just know the proposed changes had far to many problems to be the right solution. I think we need a separate set of rules for IFR vs VFR, maybe 10 hours max duty day IFR and 12 hours VFR? I don't know. Until they change, I will continue to operate under the current rules, and fly as much as I am safely able to.

[upintheair_]

At the end of the day I'm not going to kill myself over not getting enough rest. My CP has personally told me and everyone else here "If you feel worn out and fatigued after a few long days in a row, let me know and I'll book you off. That's what I'm here for, to cover shifts if we need it." And I don't doubt he's being completely honest having gotten to know him since working here. Not all operators are scumbags.

[teacher]

Not all operators are scumbags.

You're right buddy but these regulations are to make those that do not care about crew rest regulations less likely to be able to bend the rules.

And than you get fired for not being a team player and causing trouble.

Then you are better off.

Yes but that doesn't change the situations of many others pilots flying for smaller operators who everyday are "following" outdated crew rest regulations.

[upintheair_]

Oh don't get me wrong, I think the new regs are a welcome sight.

[fish4life]

I still think these new regulations will help the good companies the most and help even the playing field with the scumbag operators. That said TC better start going through duty and rest periods with a fine tooth comb to make sure companies are adhering to it.

[bobcaygeon]

TC doesn't have time to audit/enforce the current regs properly right now.
How are they going audit the proposed mish mash without more manpower, that they won't get?
The current shady operators will just continue to ignore/cut corners while the good carriers will be even more financial pressed to be competitive.


Where all these extra pilots going to come from? The experience levels in 703/704 can't get any lower or else we'll have an even bigger safety risk.

[BigQ]

TC doesn't have time to audit/enforce the current regs properly right now.
How are they going audit the proposed mish mash without more manpower, that they won't get?
The current shady operators will just continue to ignore/cut corners while the good carriers will be even more financial pressed to be competitive.


Where all these extra pilots going to come from? The experience levels in 703/704 can't get any lower or else we'll have an even bigger safety risk.

This.

If regulations tell my bosses that suddenly I'm not good for 14 hours of good work anymore, then the value of pilots will be diluted until we actually have a pilot shortage. And then what, nobody will be left to fly pop and chips to YAT or ZTM?

I thought the regulations are clear, that it is the pilot's responsibility to get adequate rest.

Scumbag operators will be scumbag operators, remember that there are quite a few that have gained an unpopular reputation here on avcanada over the years, and it showed in how far a few of them had to dig for pilots. Free-ish market, baby!

Now, if you excuse me, gonna go get my 8 hours prone rest.

[Meatservo]

I like the part of the CARS that says "except for a helicopter or a DeHavilland DHC-6 aircraft". Are these particularly relaxing types of aircraft to fly, or something?

[KK7]

I can't believe some people's idea of a sufficient solution is on the pilot reporting when they are fatigued to stop working. That regulation is already in place and it isn't working. It's nothing but one slice in the swiss cheese model leading to an accident where fatigue plays a role. A fatigued person is the worst person to evaluate one's own fatigue. Many psychological factors come into play when you are fatigued, one of them is your urge to get home. You're stuck in a crappy place and you're tired. Are you going to decide to call it a day and stay at the hotel knowing you won't be able to get home before the afternoon tomorrow, missing your child's first birthday, or are you going to take off and risk it so that you can get home as planned tonight?

Regulating rest puts everyone on the same level, and adds a slice of protection to the accident chain. The new regulations are not just pulled out of the air, they are science based. A lot of research has gone into this to get some standards that actually reduce the number of tired pilots we have flying around.

[timel]

Now if I follow your logic of "you stick for yourself", you did an engine shutdown at 21:00 and your boss tells you to show up at work at 6:15 sharp (it can't be delayed), it is a 4 days contract worth good $$$, there are no other pilots available.

Now you drive home, eat, shower as fast as you can, and you can't sleep because your adrenaline isn't going down... You won't get your 8 hours of sleep...
So Redneck_pilot86 if I understand what you are telling me, you will call your boss and tell him you won't be doing the 4 days contract?

The scenario you have made up simply wouldnt happen in any 703 company I have ever worked at. 4 day contracts don't just come out of nowhere, there is some planning involved, customers checking availability, etc. If we were accepting a 4 day contract, then the previous flight would be done by a different pilot in order to allow me proper time to prepare. If that was not an option, we would tell the customer offering the 4 day contract that it couldnt be done until 7, or whatever time we were available. Its aviation, it can ALWAYS be delayed.

I did it for a sched, a medevac, someone called sick for a planned charter or other guys getting delays on ETA so they did a last minute pilots switch...

I know other people in other places to whom it happened. So it is a reality.

I find it interesting, some operators admit they don't use the full extent of the law, isn't it ironic? What will happen when this good people sell their business to bean counters?

And than you get fired for not being a team player and causing trouble. Operators talk a big game and about safety but when it comes down to it money talks and pilots are a dime a dozen. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though. I've worked for some OK outfits BUT ALL OF THEM pushed crew rest to the limits of the law and than some. The only way to be FULLY rested for your next duty period is 12 hours free from duty at home base, period.

+1

I can't believe some people's idea of a sufficient solution is on the pilot reporting when they are fatigued to stop working. That regulation is already in place and it isn't working.

I can't believe it as well.

[Johnny#5]

I can't believe some people's idea of a sufficient solution is on the pilot reporting when they are fatigued to stop working. That regulation is already in place and it isn't working.

What regulation? And what's not working?

[Rockie]

I can't believe some people's idea of a sufficient solution is on the pilot reporting when they are fatigued to stop working. That regulation is already in place and it isn't working.

What regulation? And what's not working?

CAR 602.02

That regulation also prohibits an operator from requiring a pilot to operate fatigued even if there is a likelihood of being fatigued sometime later in the duty cycle. It isn't working because if it was this discussion wouldn't be happening.

[timel]

I came across this message.
Looks like ALPA will keep on fighting for all the Canadian pilots, I guess it includes 703-704 people. If it is the case, it is good news.

As the largest nongovernmental aviation safety organization in the world, ALPA has long asserted that the best safety feature of any airplane is a well-trained, well-rested, highly motivated flight crew. For years, ALPA’s Canada Board has joined together with Canadian officials and aviation stakeholders in a tremendous effort to develop flight-and duty-time regulations and minimum-rest requirements for airline pilots that are based on sound science.

Fatigue science clearly shows that time awake greatly affects performance. Under a science-based fatigue-mitigation regime, duty lengths can be tailored to account for the time of day a pilot starts work. A fundamental component of this goal includes applying the new fatigue rules to all professional pilots, regardless of whether they fly for large or small airlines or if they transport passengers or cargo.

As a leader in advancing this critical safety regulation, ALPA’s Canada Board has been a regular participant in working groups and numerous committees since 2010 on changes to Canadian flight-and duty-time limits and minimum-rest requirements. Through collective efforts, we were successful in submitting progressive recommendations for consideration in 2012 and encouraged Transport Canada to act on across-the-board implementation for all pilots.

After making good progress, our work in creating new flight- and duty-time regulations was stalled this week when Transport Canada published a Notice of Intention in the Gazette rather than an expected new rule. While one can presume that this announcement is a result of Parliament being dissolved due to the federal election, it is still frustrating. At this point, we should be implementing new fatigue guidance that enhances aviation safety. Instead, the decision to postpone this effort continues to delay the already overdue issuance of these important safety regulations.

As we have for years, ALPA’s Canada Board will continue work toward our goal of having science-based fatigue protections for all pilots across Canada. We will remain a vocal advocate for air transportation safety. Updating and improving flight-time/duty-time rules is crucial and must be a top priority immediately following the election.

- See more at: http://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/Blo ... k9XVs.dpuf

[Johnny#5]

I can't believe some people's idea of a sufficient solution is on the pilot reporting when they are fatigued to stop working. That regulation is already in place and it isn't working.

What regulation? And what's not working?

CAR 602.02

That regulation also prohibits an operator from requiring a pilot to operate fatigued even if there is a likelihood of being fatigued sometime later in the duty cycle. It isn't working because if it was this discussion wouldn't be happening.

It's not working in other countries and we're just following along. Why are smaller operators now exempt? Airline pilots need more coddling?

[Strobes]

I can't believe some people's idea of a sufficient solution is on the pilot reporting when they are fatigued to stop working. That regulation is already in place and it isn't working.

What regulation? And what's not working?

CAR 602.02

That regulation also prohibits an operator from requiring a pilot to operate fatigued even if there is a likelihood of being fatigued sometime later in the duty cycle. It isn't working because if it was this discussion wouldn't be happening.

By that logic, we should all turn ourselves in to TC so we can all pay our fines for not following the CARs. Hey, maybe TC will have a budget surplus and cut the medical fees!

Here's where I see that the regulations are working:
Those who can't say "no" to an operator will stop at 14 hours of duty.

Here's where I see that the new regulations will work:
Those who can't say "no" to an operator will stop at 9-13 hours of duty. 703 operators, aka those who are more likely to push their pilots, get a temporary get-out-of-jail free card, with no date in sight as to when they will need to comply.

Here's where I see that the new regs will not work/cause unanticipated problems:
705 pilots will not be able to get as high of credit hours per duty period, forcing them to work more days to meet MMG/overtime. Suddenly, they get less rest. Morale drops, possible more depressive pilots and/or divorces/family issues, Andreas Lubitz copycats at the extreme edge of possibilities.
705 operators need to hire 20-30% more pilots, boosting union memberships and revenues, while increasing pilot group salaries, decreasing profitability and/or increasing airline ticket prices to the general public. Less people fly, less seats required, less airline employees required. The numbers rebalance themselves, to the detriment to everyone but a slight boost to the coffers of unions.
Meanwhile, 704 and 703 operators loose many pilots to 705 operators. Those that stay are pushed to their limits. Lower crewing abilities where their is the most need for aviation services in Canada - fly-in reserves, etc. Wave of new pilots need training, lots of inexperience at first, possibly F/Os that would never get upgrades get upgrades out of necessity. If this happens when 703/4 ops have GOOJF cards, suddenly those who push limits could get upgrades or get noticed positively.
Flight schools finally can actually say without fibbing that there is pilot shortage, meanwhile they can't get enough instructors, cost of flight training increases due to higher demand and lower supply, reducing potential candidates, those that can/make it are saddled with debt and look for any job they can get. Such as a scumbag operator.


RECAP/TL;DR:
Best case scenario with the new regs: We all work more days at the top level for the same money. You're at work for less hours, but more days. Higher ratio of your time spent in traffic. TC and the government pats itself in the back for having done a good job. Unions become stronger financially. Job conditions eroded at the top tier.
Worst case scenario with the new regs: Cascading negative factors in the lower tier, but equally important, 703/704 world. More crashes due to managerial, financial, and career pressures as pilots owe more money. Job conditions eroded at ALL tiers, general population clamoring for more safety regulations. Pilots unable to think for themselves, making the pilot group more likely to be replaced by computer algorithms and cheap labour. Responsibility is legislated, yet pilots reaching the 705 tier don't have as much of it as they used to. Scumbag operators find ways around new regs, pilots unable to stand up and say "no".

Best case scenario with the old regs: Things stay the same, 705 pilots enjoy same or better quality of life, 703/4 pilots continue to learn to think for themselves and become responsible crewmembers as they are progressing in their careers. Companies continue to source good pilots.

Worst case scenario with the old regs: Scumbag operators remain scumbag operators, yet pilots continually learn about them and turnover is high until bankruptcy/pilots refuse to work there. Some accidents here and there, we continue to learn from them and become better people. Unions don't have as high a membership as they could have.

Now, please, tell me which scenario sounds nicer? Which one do you want? Here is what I believe: There is nothing good that will come from tighter regulations. And don't tell me that operators in other jurisdictions are safer because of their tighter regs. A certain operator that comes to Canada in the winter under wet lease programs comes to mind. And they operate in the most oppressively-regulated jurisdiction in the world.


Edited for formatting

[Rockie]

And don't tell me that operators in other jurisdictions are safer because of their tighter regs.

Safer? I have no idea.
Less fatigued? Certainly.

It's science - and beyond that it's pure common sense that humans have instinctively known even without expensive studies ever since they first fell asleep on a cave floor. Denying it as our government continues to do is utter nonsense that blatantly panders to business interests over safety. In fact it was our own current Transport Minister whining a few years ago about how onerous it was driving the five hours from Toronto to Ottawa - poor baby.