Carson Air Captain blood alcohol 0.24 at time of crash.

[cncpc]

I'm extremely disappointed that thus professional pilot has brought such discredit and dishonour to Canadian pilots.

I'm not. I'm not inclined to such over the top rush to judgement hysteria about a man who can't defend himself. Even if he was very intoxicated, I'm afraid I'm not acquainted with any reasonable minded member of the public who would say this has brought "such discredit and dishonour to Canadian pilots". We must travel in different circles.

[PointyEngine]

Yup...

Poorly maintained, abused and flown by poorly trained pilots, these Metros, are certainly pieces of shit.

Other ones, are good airplanes that just require a bit more respect than your King Airs and Navajos.

Having flown this very Metro, and the Metro's for Carson I can say the Metro's are maintained pretty damn well. They have to be or they'd be grounded far too often to maintain the FedEx dispatch requirements. Having worked for a few 703/704 operators, in my opinion the maintenance in the Carson YYC base is some of the best I've seen (and all the metros rotate between bases). If they're flown as they're meant to be flown, the metro is an exceptionally sturdy, and efficient machine. However there are a lot more "DO NOT" do points, when compared to a pussy cat like a King Air.

Let's hold off on speculation and discussion about the "dishonor bought to Canadian pilots" until the official findings come out...

[Jean-Pierre]

What happens if the pilot suddenly pass out and slumps unto controls? Enough negative G to clap the wings above the fuselage?

[JBI]

I fully agree that it is possible that the fact the pilot was found to have an extremely bac had nothing to do with the accident. However, it is likely a huge factor in this unfortunate accident.

This airplane crashed because some event tore the wings off it. The horizontal stabilizer is ripped off or otherwise damaged. A prop or both props cut the cockpit off in the coming apart sequence.

From what I have heard, it was not a catastrophic failure during cruise but rather a structural failure as a result of pulling out of a dive. The TSB investigation will obviously reveal more conclusive facts. There have been a few previous metro accidents where the Metro got into speeds that exceeded its structural integrity while the pilots tried to manoeuvre.

When the civil suits come out character witnesses will be able to state whether the pilot had an addiction or not.

It will be very unlikely that a civil suit will arise from this accident. Both the pilots are likely covered under Worker's Compensation and the damages for the cargo lost will be covered in the bills of lading with customers and contract between Carson and whichever operator it was operating on behalf of.

Please be safe out there folks. If you have problems - tell your employer. They ARE NOT allowed to fire you immediately and have to work with you to get help. NOBODY wants a pilot under the influence to be flying an aircraft.

[goingnowherefast]

I'm going to hold my opinions until the TSB posts something. They have a much larger resource network than a bunch of random pilots on the internet.
Maybe they were flying a couple boxes of booze in the back, and he got covered in the crash?
Lets not jump to conclusions before we know all the facts. We only know one fact, and aren't educated in the proper field to know the context or accuracy of the report. (I know I didn't study post-mortem toxicology in flight school)

Plus, how do we learn from an accident if we write it off in our own minds as "he was hammered and broke the plane, so nothing for me to learn here"

[human garbage]

FWIW, the news release is no longer posted on the coroner's service website.

Your Google Fu is weak grasshopper...

http://www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/coroners/shar ... esults.pdf

...Maybe they were flying a couple boxes of booze in the back, and he got covered in the crash?

Seriously? Did you forget to a one of these ? If not, I don't know what to say to that 'theory' without being impolite sir.

[goldeneagle]

Plus, how do we learn from an accident if we write it off in our own minds as "he was hammered and broke the plane, so nothing for me to learn here"

That may be all there is to learn from this one. Contrary to popular belief around here, it's rare indeed where there is anything to learn from an aircraft accident, that hasn't been learned a time or two in the past. We long ago ran out of new ways to break airplanes, and most of them today are just repeats of incidents that have happened time and again in the past.

[AuxBatOn]

Plus, how do we learn from an accident if we write it off in our own minds as "he was hammered and broke the plane, so nothing for me to learn here"

That may be all there is to learn from this one. Contrary to popular belief around here, it's rare indeed where there is anything to learn from an aircraft accident, that hasn't been learned a time or two in the past. We long ago ran out of new ways to break airplanes, and most of them today are just repeats of incidents that have happened time and again in the past.

If we keep making the same mistakes then we haven't learned the lessons, but merely identified them.

[CID]

I'm not. I'm not inclined to such over the top rush to judgement hysteria about a man who can't defend himself. Even if he was very intoxicated, I'm afraid I'm not acquainted with any reasonable minded member of the public who would say this has brought "such discredit and dishonour to Canadian pilots". We must travel in different circles.

If your "circle" includes anyone who justifies flying under the influence of alcohol then I'd rather not be associated with them. Do you also justify drunk drivers who kill innocent people in car accidents? Do you also doubt evidence from blood alcohol tests? This is not "hysteria". The action of this "pilot" has put more apprehension into the minds of the flying public. How many pilots are in the air right now that are legally intoxicated?

When potential passengers read this sort of thing, it affects the entire industry.

[Johnny#5]

How many pilots are in the air right now that are legally intoxicated?

6

[Canoehead]

I think the fact remains: BC Coroner would not release this info if it wasn't what it was.
I feel sorry for both of their families who are living their own respective Hell on earth. This complicates things greatly.

[BigWillyStyle]

As both a pilot and a coroner from a different jurisdiction, perhaps I can offer some perspective. Coroners typically are first and foremost investigators. We synthesize data from traffic accident reconstructionists, medical records, TSB reports, ambulance call reports, and pathology reports into a coherent whole. Although we don't need to be specialists in any of the above fields, we often are, and we need to know how to understand a vast breadth of information. We can seize evidence, interview witnesses, order autopsies, refer survivors to social services, hold inquests and so on. We can even remove bodies from aircraft wreckage before the arrival of TSB, provided that we do not significantly disturb the scene. Our duties vary from province to province, but that's generally the job.

The BAC in this case is plausible. The post-mortem exam would likely have been conducted by a pathologist, an MD with forensic specialization, and the samples would have been collected under their supervision, at several sites in the body, as previously noted, by a senior lab tech at a provincial micro-bio lab or at the hospital where the autopsy was conducted. The results from those sites will vary in a predictable way due to the different rates of alcohol breakdown in different tissues. The overall trend of those results will be scrutinized for validity, in light of the possibility of post-mortem ethanol metabolism, which in this case is slim and minor, in my professional opinion.

An individual with a BAC of .24 who is still capable of walking, talking and operating complex machinery is often typical of chronic substance abuse. Muscle memory often makes up for the significant cognitive and psychomotor deficits associated with intoxication of this magnitude. By comparison, I have seen drunk drivers capable of operating a motor vehicle, albeit in an unsafe manner, with BACs in the .3 to .4 range. Astonishing to the rest of us, but feasible for chronic alcoholics.

Based on everything we know up to this point, the scenario in which an inadvertent overspeed/overstress led to inflight failure seems likely. An individual with a BAC of .24 may have appeared outwardly ordinary, but in a high-workload environment, deficits in reflexes, cognition, and decision-making may well have been substantial enough to have been a causative factor. I certainly don't wish to besmirch the reputation of the deceased, but that's where the evidence is pointing.

As in all tragedies, my sympathies are with the families of the victims.

[Rudy]

Thanks for the expert opinion BigWilly. To your knowledge is there any way alcohol could be reintroduced into blood from other tissues during extreme trauma, possibly sustained over an extended period?

[cncpc]

How many pilots are in the air right now that are legally intoxicated?

6

I'd say you can multiply that by at least 50, and I'm serious.

[cncpc]

As both a pilot and a coroner from a different jurisdiction, perhaps I can offer some perspective. Coroners typically are first and foremost investigators. We synthesize data from traffic accident reconstructionists, medical records, TSB reports, ambulance call reports, and pathology reports into a coherent whole. Although we don't need to be specialists in any of the above fields, we often are, and we need to know how to understand a vast breadth of information. We can seize evidence, interview witnesses, order autopsies, refer survivors to social services, hold inquests and so on. We can even remove bodies from aircraft wreckage before the arrival of TSB, provided that we do not significantly disturb the scene. Our duties vary from province to province, but that's generally the job.

The BAC in this case is plausible. The post-mortem exam would likely have been conducted by a pathologist, an MD with forensic specialization, and the samples would have been collected under their supervision, at several sites in the body, as previously noted, by a senior lab tech at a provincial micro-bio lab or at the hospital where the autopsy was conducted. The results from those sites will vary in a predictable way due to the different rates of alcohol breakdown in different tissues. The overall trend of those results will be scrutinized for validity, in light of the possibility of post-mortem ethanol metabolism, which in this case is slim and minor, in my professional opinion.

An individual with a BAC of .24 who is still capable of walking, talking and operating complex machinery is often typical of chronic substance abuse. Muscle memory often makes up for the significant cognitive and psychomotor deficits associated with intoxication of this magnitude. By comparison, I have seen drunk drivers capable of operating a motor vehicle, albeit in an unsafe manner, with BACs in the .3 to .4 range. Astonishing to the rest of us, but feasible for chronic alcoholics.

Based on everything we know up to this point, the scenario in which an inadvertent overspeed/overstress led to inflight failure seems likely. An individual with a BAC of .24 may have appeared outwardly ordinary, but in a high-workload environment, deficits in reflexes, cognition, and decision-making may well have been substantial enough to have been a causative factor. I certainly don't wish to besmirch the reputation of the deceased, but that's where the evidence is pointing.

As in all tragedies, my sympathies are with the families of the victims.

Outstanding post.

[BigWillyStyle]

To the best of my knowledge, there is no way to re-introduce any substance back into tissues, either peri-mortem or post-mortem, in the precise concentrations required to mimic the different metabolic rates and processes at each collection point. The "alcohol splash" hypothesis simply would not work. Reading between the lines, my hunch is that the BAC results have been vetted by the Chief Coroner and Chief Pathologist/Medical Examiner of BC, and the trends are solid, to have been released by the BCCS at this point, before a final report is released. There are other physiological markers that would be present in this scenario, that would have been checked out by the examining pathologist, but not released to the public. To release the number to the press indicates an ironclad result.

It is a shame.

[BigWillyStyle]

Thanks for the expert opinion BigWilly. To your knowledge is there any way alcohol could be reintroduced into blood from other tissues during extreme trauma, possibly sustained over an extended period?

Upon re-reading, I think I answered a different question. If I understand you correctly, the question is whether traumatic injuries suffered in flight due to structural failure would have exerted any sort of gradient from tissues back into blood, possibly skewing the numbers. The short answer is no. I'd have to hit the books to be 100% sure, but I don't think that's even biochemically possible. Even if it was, the tissue trends would be all out of whack. If it was even possible, the effect would be tiny. Chemically, it's a one-way reaction, and physically, the permeability of the membranes wouldn't allow it. During that hypothetical sequence, the 2 bodily substances more in flux would be glucose and adrenaline. Not ethanol.

So, no.

[Rowdy]

Some interesting points made by a few here.. especially those with the credentials to back them.

Now, would someone with a .24 BAC not be obvious to those around, even if a chronic problem existed? there are many many indicators of both that level for the average chap and for those that suffer from alcoholism. From my own experiences with a now passed family member...

I can't fathom the drive to work at that point, let alone the other co-workers, FO, baggage handlers not noticing, nor speaking up about it. You're in fairly close proximity loading bags at that time..

I would hate to see this skew the investigation and the public opinion of it. Especially when many of the other indicators are there for a structural failure. Did we not see remnants of a fire or was that disprove? Were there not markings that showed something leading to an inflight breakup? While I'm not fully up to speed on it, I remember someone mentioning wing AD's.. and previous fires causing wing failures? I'm full of questions as this continues to become more and more twisted...

[BigWillyStyle]

Indeed, clearly these findings should not be viewed in isolation, but rather part of the larger investigation.

As to the presentation of those suffering from alcoholism, it can be deceptive. I do not hold any formal certification in substance abuse counselling per se, but doing what I do for as long as I've done it, I've noticed some things. A chronic alcoholic can drink themselves way past the typical point of coherence, get some sleep, shower, eat breakfast, have no perceptible odour of booze about them, go to work, and still be mostly functional at multiples of .08%. Astonishing. A police breath-tech I chatted with has seen .44 in a walking, talking, driving individual, who in the opinion of the arresting officer, an expert in intoxicated behaviour, seemed only "a little tipsy". The tolerance that can be built up is incredible. I talked to a physician at a conference who has seen .58 in an individual who was still awake. Jaw-dropping numbers.

It's entirely possible that to any casual observer, the individual in question may have appeared no worse than I would appear if I showed up to a 5AM bag run, and the coffee had not yet kicked in. Pull the plugs, pull the chocks, throw the bags in, let's go. First leg yours? Yup. You sure? Yeah, I'm fine. Checklist. Clearance.

Did this happen before with no negative outcomes? Did the FO not say anything because of this pernicious and sometimes tragic culture within aviation? We may never know. We can hope for a definitive answer as the analysis of the structural failure concludes. Where the post-mortem data fits into the conclusions is not yet clear.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I should think the insurance company is off the hook on this one, since the captain was committing a criminal offence by flying drunk....
Illya

[mbav8r]

I would think not, the company is the insured and was not committing an offence. Perhaps if the insurance company could prove they knew the pilot was drunk or had a drinking problem, possibly they could get out of it.
The estate of the deceased will likely be wrapped up in legal challenges for years to come. I would imagine the FOs family will be looking at legal action as I type.

[2R]

The only thing we can say for sure is that by the time the body was recovered it presented the results offered by the coroner.
How long was the pilot dead before the body was tested ?
The body chemistry can change a lot between when it has a violent end and before it is tested.
Does anyone know how long the recovery took between the death and testing took ?
The environmental conditions can affect tests .
Please wait until the full report is out before apportioning blame.
Preliminary and draft reports are re-written many times before we can agree to the truth.

[AuxBatOn]

The only thing we can say for sure is that by the time the body was recovered it presented the results offered by the coroner.
How long was the pilot dead before the body was tested ?
The body chemistry can change a lot between when it has a violent end and before it is tested.
Does anyone know how long the recovery took between the death and testing took ?
The environmental conditions can affect tests .
Please wait until the full report is out before apportioning blame.
Preliminary and draft reports are re-written many times before we can agree to the truth.

I don't know... An actual coroner comes here and tells us that the published results are very credible....

[BigWillyStyle]

The only thing we can say for sure is that by the time the body was recovered it presented the results offered by the coroner.
How long was the pilot dead before the body was tested ?
The body chemistry can change a lot between when it has a violent end and before it is tested.
Does anyone know how long the recovery took between the death and testing took ?
The environmental conditions can affect tests .
Please wait until the full report is out before apportioning blame.
Preliminary and draft reports are re-written many times before we can agree to the truth.

I don't know... An actual coroner comes here and tells us that the published results are very credible....

To clarify. I would expect the BCCS to be extremely confident that the results are credible before releasing them to the press, in the absence of a final report. We coroners tend to be quite cautious in jumping to conclusions. AuxBatOn is correct in pointing out the non-zero chance of a false positive, and that environmental factors can have an effect. True. Traumatic injuries can contaminate samples, and lead to bacterial production of ethanol in the hours after death. True. However, points to consider:

-The wreck was above the snow line, at sub-zero temperatures.
-No BAC in the co-pilot, whose remains were presumably at roughly the same elevation, and same temperature.
-Although not overtly stated in the media, likely similar injury patterns between the 2 deceased.
-To correctly infer BAC, multiple samples are taken from multiple locations in the body. The sites with the least amount of injury would be the most accurate. Vitreous humour (eye) samples are usually the most reliable, due to that structure being sealed from bacteria in the absence of significant trauma. If the bladder is still intact, it is also quite reliable, as the internal chemistry is generally unfriendly to bacteria and yeast. Femoral blood is usually reliable even in extreme trauma. The femur is the strongest bone in the body, and the femoral artery is right next to it, shielded by the quad, one of the thickest muscles. Assuming light to moderate damage to the upper leg, and no contamination by ruptured abdominal organs, femoral blood should be reliable.
-Any ethanol value that seems way out of whack from the rest of the trend would likely be discarded as contaminated. If all of the values are in the ratios of what would be expected, the chance is pretty small that the precise amount of contamination would have been introduced at each sample site to mimic the normal spread of values. Not zero, but awfully small.

(please forgive the morbid tone)

I perused the clinical literature just to brush up, and several studies have shown that tissue samples exposed to a specific type of bacteria and yeast, at room temperature, generated a substantial amount of ethanol over 2-4 days. They also generated some specific metabolites (by-products) that are distinct from pre-mortem metabolism, and are easily screened for in a lab setting.

All of this together, leads to a credible conclusion. The BCCS deals with more than their fair share of aviation fatalities, and there is plentiful published research on this exact topic going back to the 50's. I'm sure that they have read it.

AuxBatOn also states that we should await the final report before settling on a final conclusion. I agree. The case is still open.

[AuxBatOn]

AuxBatOn also states that we should await the final report before settling on a final conclusion. I agree. The case is still open.

Just to clarify, I did not say this, 2R did, same thing with the first reference in your post.