You would do what you were told by the person in command of the airplane.
Why is this a "dick" quote? I personally would probably leave the poor guy strapped in but if the pilot in command wanted the corpse removed then that is exactly what the FA's should do. What they are told by the pilot in command.
These decisions are not democratic ones, and that has nothing to do with poor CRM.
Some are a bit graphic to be discussed on a public forum . Simply the human body reaction after passing away. And I shall leave it at such.
Yes ultimately the final decision would remain to the pilot flying, but I m assuming anyone with some airline experience would have to agree that out of respect for the person that just passed just leave him or her secured and locked in his seat.
You would do what you were told by the person in command of the airplane.
Why is this a "dick" quote? I personally would probably leave the poor guy strapped in but if the pilot in command wanted the corpse removed then that is exactly what the FA's should do.
Because it adds nothing to the discussion and tries to denigrate the opinion of another pilot because of their past experience as an F/A. It's also a stupid comment because the PIC isn't omniscient and doesn't know everything at all times. Sometimes it's the F/A who knows what to do. If every time we have a discussion about what to do the PIC thinks it's his or her job to tell the F/As that their job is to shut up and do what the PIC tells them how much longer do you think the F/As are going to continue coming forward with their ideas and knowledge? How about the F/O?
We can take it as a given that when the decision is made, everyone is going to do what the PIC instructs. It's obvious from the above comments that we can't take it as a given that pilots understand the basics of leadership.
ahramin wrote:
I've always been at a loss to understand the idea of bringing in an ABP to "help" in an incapacitation scenario. Dealing with a single pilot situation for an aircraft you've trained 2 crew on does not seem to be the proper time to teach an ABP or commercial pilot or even airline pilot anything. Type rated sure, a second set of trained eyes could definitely be useful, but anyone else I would think would be more trouble than help. If a pilot needs someone around for moral support then I guess they need it but every time I've seen two pilots not on the same set of SOPs get together and try to help each other it hasn't been better than one pilot.
You have describe my thoughts exactly. To be fair though, most mention a cabin crew, and not an ABP. to bring in a stranger into the flight deck would be breaking company rules, and in some countries (UK, Canada, US), federal regulations. I know emergencies can bypass rules, but like you said, this makes more harm than good.
If you're ever found in this scenario. Use all automation available, read the checklist out loud, and get the aircraft down safely in order to get the medical attention to your colleague.
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When I retire, I’ll miss the clowns, not the circus.
You would do what you were told by the person in command of the airplane.
Why is this a "dick" quote? I personally would probably leave the poor guy strapped in but if the pilot in command wanted the corpse removed then that is exactly what the FA's should do. What they are told by the pilot in command.
These decisions are not democratic ones, and that has nothing to do with poor CRM.
This statement is a dick quote because it assumes andy_mtl is unaware of the chain of command which is certainly not true, and also suggests the cabin crew would have no input into the PIC's decision making - also not true.
You would do what you were told by the person in command of the airplane.
Why is this a "dick" quote? I personally would probably leave the poor guy strapped in but if the pilot in command wanted the corpse removed then that is exactly what the FA's should do. What they are told by the pilot in command.
These decisions are not democratic ones, and that has nothing to do with poor CRM.
Exactly. Let's not mistake CRM for flying via democracy. He presented himself as an FA, then told us what he would do. Any good pilot would listen to him then do what is the safest for the airplane.
Which probably involves avoiding the passenger panic your FA thinks is likely to be caused by dragging a corpse - wearing 4 stripes - into the passenger cabin.
Of course if you were more respectful of other people's roles and less insecure in yours perhaps you'd have appreciated the point being made, instead of trying to bitch slap someone with something useful to add.
I say - do you think you should put on the dead captain's stripes, if you're the FO? Let's call it a field promotion, say. I hear it's very important for the rest of the crew to know who's in command so they can obey orders.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
I stated I was a flight attendant. And that was training that was thought to us. Currently I am happily employed as a pilot, however still carry with me some good points that were offered during Fa training.
Sometimes you as the captain aren't the best to make certain decision.
What if your Fa was a paramedic before?
They would know much more than the captain on what to do even if they don't have 4 stripes. Actually they have none.
Yet still better trained than you to make such decisions.
And as I mentioned there are reason linked to the phisiological effect that the human body would have.
I do now belive it would be very respectful to any human being to be dragged in a galley, perform cpr , then what are you gonna do with the body if the flight is full? Put him in the lav?
Are you gonna put a pax in the lav and sit the body?
I don't know where you work and what you do. But I seriously hope you Re not in a 705 ops with such attitude toward the rest of your crew.
I stated I was a flight attendant. And that was training that was thought to us. Currently I am happily employed as a pilot, however still carry with me some good points that were offered during Fa training.
Sometimes you as the captain aren't the best to make certain decision.
What if your Fa was a paramedic before?
They would know much more than the captain on what to do even if they don't have 4 stripes. Actually they have none.
Yet still better trained than you to make such decisions.
And as I mentioned there are reason linked to the phisiological effect that the human body would have.
I do now belive it would be very respectful to any human being to be dragged in a galley, perform cpr , then what are you gonna do with the body if the flight is full? Put him in the lav?
Are you gonna put a pax in the lav and sit the body?
I don't know where you work and what you do. But I seriously hope you Re not in a 705 ops with such attitude toward the rest of your crew.
Andy
You said what you would do as the FA. you would do what you were told to do, no one said your opinion doesn't matter, but when your the FA you do what your told. I don't care if the FA is the fucking pope, I'll listen to him then decide the best course of action. Cockpits rant democracy's
andy_mtl wrote:You attitude continues to surprise me.
I don't understand where such attitude come from, but you need to change and get up to speed with where Crm is at right now.
Andy
you are confusing CRM and Command authority. If I have thee opportunity to fill that seat with something more useful then dead weight I will. That isn't a conversation nor does it need an explanation. Now I'll listen to your feelings then you'll do what I tell you to. flying is not a democracy
Nor is it a dictatorship. Command authority is not telling people what they will do, nor is it something simply bestowed by the aeronautics act. Real command authority is earned by providing respected leadership which includes CRM.
Perhaps if you explained why safety would be better served by moving a deceased pilot into the cabin the FA's would agree with you and you wouldn't have to impose your command authority by decree.
Rockie, Andy, don't waste your time. There are still thousands of pilots out there who don't even understand the concept of leadership. Many of them in leadership positions and failing miserably. The only solution is to educate the younger crowd and wait for the dinosaurs to go extinct.
andy_mtl wrote:
You said what you would do as the FA. you would do what you were told to do, no one said your opinion doesn't matter, but when your the FA you do what your told. I don't care if the FA is the fucking pope, I'll listen to him then decide the best course of action. Cockpits rant democracy's
If you want people to take you seriously, I suggest you learn some grammar.
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When I retire, I’ll miss the clowns, not the circus.
andy_mtl wrote:You attitude continues to surprise me.
I don't understand where such attitude come from, but you need to change and get up to speed with where Crm is at right now.
Andy
you are confusing CRM and Command authority. If I have thee opportunity to fill that seat with something more useful then dead weight I will. That isn't a conversation nor does it need an explanation. Now I'll listen to your feelings then you'll do what I tell you to. flying is not a democracy
It certainly is and should be a conversation before you make a decision like that. Of course as PIC you would have final authority to make such a choice, but you would be a fool to not include the rest of the crew and their experience as part of the decision making process. And after having listened to the FAs recommendation in this case I would side with it as it sounds like it would be the most appropriate considering both safety of flight and operational points of view. You may disagree with that, and that's fine, that's not the issue. People are jumping on you for the attitude you portray with your statements of authority.
I would venture a guess that you don't work in a modern 705 environment, as the attitude that is apparent from your messages would likely (and hopefully) come out in a typical HR behavioural interview.
ahramin wrote:There are still thousands of pilots out there who don't even understand the concept of leadership.
The only solution is to educate the younger crowd and wait for the dinosaurs to go extinct.
Agreed on both counts. Many of the younger crowd read this forum fortunately so it is worth spending the time to explain.
Command authority is not the same as command ability, command presence or leadership. Command authority is conferred upon the PIC by the Aeronautics Act whereas command presence, command ability and leadership must be developed. It all starts with leadership, and being respected as a leader is only possible if you are respectful of those you are leading.
That's where the statement below fails.
leftoftrack wrote:You would do what you were told by the person in command of the airplane.
Johnny#5 wrote:But in the very end that statement is still true, is it not?
As in any "command" given whether in civilian or military life the answer is - not necessarily. It is not a dictatorship.
I've found over the years that if there is time to explain a situation, well trained and experienced crews usually come to the same conclusions you do and don't have to be told to do anything. I must also add that many times when I've taken the time to listen to what they have to say I've modified my conclusions closer to theirs. The starting point is treating them as professional members of the crew rather than "I am the Captain and this is what I want". If they don't think you're receptive to anything they say then they aren't likely to say anything, and you need them to. They usually - if not always - have information you need to incorporate into your thinking in anything to do with passengers or the cabin.
It's been ever thus. This doesn't have anything to do with "where CRM is at these days" or "Getting rid of the dinosaurs". People throughout history have proven what real leadership means and how to use it. Lord Nelson listened to and respected his officers. Captain Bligh was set adrift to die at sea by his. (How he survived and the lessons he undoubtedly learned are another story of course)
The concepts of CRM have been understood and put into practice by genuine leaders since time immemorial. Once you've had to fall back onto your legal right to be in charge under the aeronautics act and the Canadian criminal code, you've already pretty much lost your moral authority to be in charge.
Modern CRM theory does not represent a fundamental change in the chain of command, or the authority of the Captain. What it is is an attempt to codify correct leadership behaviour in the hopes of being able to teach it to people. In my experience, you either "get it" or you don't, although I have seen people grow into a correct understanding. Aviation is the only endeavour I've ever witnessed that employs a rank structure, yet makes almost no attempt to formally educate its officers (that's you and me) in communications and leadership. CRM is an attempt to do so. Unfortunately it's been kind of taken over by the "do this powerpoint and then fill in this multiple choice test so we can say we did your training if you crash" operational attitude. It actually deserves to be taken more seriously by upper management.
If this is difficult to understand, you might not be right for the job.
I appreciate the flight attendant above who told us what they would do. In all likelihood, if one of my F/As had a sensible course of action planned out, I would be more than happy to attend to my duties while they helped in any way possible, and grateful if they were able and willing to take charge of some aspect of it, including making decisions like what to do with our critically incapacitated crewmate.
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If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself
Interestingly, during the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805 at a time when fleet maneuvering was subject to extreme discipline and micro-managing, Admiral Nelson explicitly instructed his Captains to disobey his orders if they thought it was prudent to do so. This was a sign of confidence and respect for their professional abilities. Extremely rare in those days and part of what made him the Brit's greatest hero to this day.
Johnny#5 wrote:But in the very end that statement is still true, is it not?
As in any "command" given whether in civilian or military life the answer is - not necessarily. It is not a dictatorship.
I've found over the years that if there is time to explain a situation, well trained and experienced crews usually come to the same conclusions you do and don't have to be told to do anything. I must also add that many times when I've taken the time to listen to what they have to say I've modified my conclusions closer to theirs. The starting point is treating them as professional members of the crew rather than "I am the Captain and this is what I want". If they don't think you're receptive to anything they say then they aren't likely to say anything, and you need them to. They usually - if not always - have information you need to incorporate into your thinking in anything to do with passengers or the cabin.
Johnny#5 wrote:But in the very end that statement is still true, is it not?
As in any "command" given whether in civilian or military life the answer is - not necessarily. It is not a dictatorship.
I've found over the years that if there is time to explain a situation, well trained and experienced crews usually come to the same conclusions you do and don't have to be told to do anything. I must also add that many times when I've taken the time to listen to what they have to say I've modified my conclusions closer to theirs. The starting point is treating them as professional members of the crew rather than "I am the Captain and this is what I want". If they don't think you're receptive to anything they say then they aren't likely to say anything, and you need them to. They usually - if not always - have information you need to incorporate into your thinking in anything to do with passengers or the cabin.
