Anglophones Flying Out of Montreal

[mooose]

Greetings,

I'm just curious of the hurdles English speaking pilots face flying out of Montreal.

I may like to move to Montreal a few years down the road when my career is established, but I don't imagine taking a couple French courses beforehand would make me fluent; I'd need to immerse myself first before 'getting it.'

What level of competency in French speaking do the regionals and big boys in Montreal require?

[ant_321]

I don't work out of Montreal but I do have at least 5 friends who live and work out of there who speak nearly 0 French. I even have a friend outside of aviation who is from Montreal and hardly speaks any French. It won't be a problem.

[DanWEC]

+1
There are people who are born and raised in Montreal as well and aren't bilingual. It's the further you get from the city that French becomes more ubiquitous.
Don't anyone started about French on the radio! (TPC.... where are you? )

That being said, I think it's certainly an asset both for lifestyle and hiring ammo.
Immersion is definitely the way to go, I've been trying to re-learn online and home study for a while now and I find it innefective compared to learning through casual conversation with regular people.

[timel]

On 126.7 and around Mtl on a CAVOK day it is normal
if you don't understand anything.
Personnaly I don't.

[SuperchargedRS]

I fly right by Montreal, those dudes ramble off in French all the time, no friggin idea what they are saying, most all of them COULD speak English and be understood by FAAAAR more of the other pilots, but lacking intelligence to do this, they don't.

Makes zero sense to me

[AuxBatOn]

I fly right by Montreal, those dudes ramble off in French all the time, no friggin idea what they are saying, most all of them COULD speak English and be understood by FAAAAR more of the other pilots, but lacking intelligence to do this, they don't.

Makes zero sense to me

And the English pilot not taking basic French before flying VFR in the most French portion of Canada is smarter?!

[Go Juice]

SuperchargedRS

Congratulations.

You sir are the moron of the month.

[TeePeeCreeper]

+1
There are people who are born and raised in Montreal as well and aren't bilingual. It's the further you get from the city that French becomes more ubiquitous.
Don't anyone started about French on the radio! (TPC.... where are you? )

That being said, I think it's certainly an asset both for lifestyle and hiring ammo.
Immersion is definitely the way to go, I've been trying to re-learn online and home study for a while now and I find it innefective compared to learning through casual conversation with regular people.

Je suis à l'écoute de 126.7 mon ami!!!

I agree with what has already been said.

SuperchargedRS, your assumptions and sense of entitlement are frustrating to say the least.

I defy anyone to cite an accident or incident which was directly caused by a Francophone's refusal to speak in English on the radio in the province of Québec and in some parts of Northern Ontario/Labrador...

I can't think of anyone, (including the ubiquitous members of the "language police" who might be pilots) whom would refuse to accommodate a unilingual Anglophone on the radio!

Bon vols,
TPC

[cgzro]

I think you will find that most of the pilots in Montreal that are Francophone at least understand English well enough to know when you may be in conflict with them, so its likely a good idea to keep telling 26.7 where you are and what your intentions are clearly and concisely even if you cannot do it in French. Uncontrolled airports are another matter and it can be a real challenge and you need to keep your head on a swivel and fly like a drunk to keep an eye out everywhere when you join a circuit.

[pelmet]

It would appear that Go-Juice and Teepee Creeper have a lack of english proficiency as they obviously did not understand what Supercharged was saying.

Read again and keep reading until you understand.

If you still can't understand, re-read the thread title and then read the post once again instead of the being part of the usual automatically offended groups we see so much of these days.

[TeePeeCreeper]

It would appear that Go-Juice and Teepee Creeper have a lack of english proficiency as they obviously did not understand what Supercharged was saying.

Read again and keep reading until you understand.

If you still can't understand, re-read the thread title and then read the post once again instead of the being part of the usual automatically offended groups we see so much of these days.

Excuse me?

The original question was addressed and answered well. The disparaging remarks that ensued were narrow sighted to say the least, yours included.

Perhaps you might have something of value to provide us with other than condescending remarks akin to "re-read the thread title" or the downright insulting "automatically offended group".

It has become obvious to me that you seem to enjoy keeping up to date with Canadian aviation incidents, accidents and posting Cadors and TSB reports...

Please consider my previous comment/question as genuine;

Can you cite an accident where the TSB found that a contributing factor was "linguistical issues arising from the use of two separate official languages"?

Respectfully,
TPC

Edited to add:

re: "the big boys"

Two of Canada's largest airlines are YUL based.... Surely most of their pilots speak both official Canadian languages but none the less, the men and women flying those aircraft haven't filed a CADOR pertaining to linguistical issues as far as I've seen thus far...

[pelmet]

It would appear that Go-Juice and Teepee Creeper have a lack of english proficiency as they obviously did not understand what Supercharged was saying.

Read again and keep reading until you understand.

If you still can't understand, re-read the thread title and then read the post once again instead of the being part of the usual automatically offended groups we see so much of these days.

Excuse me?

The original question was addressed and answered well. The disparaging remarks that ensued were narrow sighted to say the least, yours included.

Perhaps you might have something of value to provide us with other than condescending remarks akin to "re-read the thread title" or the downright insulting "automatically offended group".

OK TPCreeper, I was hoping I wouldn't have to but I will patiently explain his post to you so you understand(which should be of some value to you).

The thread is about anglos flying out of Montreal.

Supercharged said said...." fly right by Montreal, those dudes ramble off in French all the time, no friggin idea what they are saying, most all of them COULD speak English and be understood by FAAAAR more of the other pilots, but lacking intelligence to do this, they don't. Makes zero sense to me"

It means, (a) Supercharged flies right by Montreal.
(b) Those dudes (referred to in the thread title as Anglos) ramble off in French all the time.
(c) When those Anglo dudes ramble off in French, they have no friggin' idea what they are saying(in his opinion).
(d) Those Anglos dudes could just speak English and be understood by FAAAAR more of the other pilots.
(e) It would be more intelligent to do a well spoken English broadcast than a poor French one despite their good intentions of trying to accomodate and show respect for our fellow Quebecers when operating in their area.
(f) It all makes no sense to him why people make a poorly understood broadcast.

So...No, my post was not narrow-sighted or condescending as you have stated. But perhaps the post by Supercharged could be easily misinterpreted if not read carefully. Not reading carefully is a big hazard in aviation. Fortunately in this thread, the only result was several insults by those who did not read the post carefully.

As an aside, I personally have taken the time to try to understand the basics of broadcasts in French for times when I fly into Quebec, but, if anything more complex is required, it is better to just switch to English and probably more will understand what I am trying to say. Minimizes wasted airtime and potential misunderstandings. Might help keep me out of a TSB report which as you have noted, I have posted for informational purposes.

[FAF]

So if I get this correct, when flying in Manitoba near Winkler, I should speak german, then as I fly West over a Hutterite colony I should speak whatever they do, as my next leg takes me up North, over to Cree? Isn't the aviation language English, not for lack of respect, but so we just know what is being said?

If not it begins to explain the lengthy 26.7 calls.

[pelmet]

So if I get this correct, when flying in Manitoba near Winkler, I should speak german, then as I fly West over a Hutterite colony I should speak whatever they do, as my next leg takes me up North, over to Cree? Isn't the aviation language English, not for lack of respect, but so we just know what is being said?

If not it begins to explain the lengthy 26.7 calls.

I might suggest taking into account the primary language being used by the pilots on the frequency and your ability to speak the language rather than the language of the residents below. It prevents me from having to practice my Mandarin and Cantonese while on final into YVR and Hindi into YYZ on 15L/R.

[Grey_Wolf]

Canadian Aviation Regulations - Division VIII — Radiocommunications

602.133 - Language Used in Aeronautical Radiocommunications

English and French are the languages of aeronautical radiocommunication in Canada.

602.134 - Locations Where Services Are Available in English and French

(1) Any person operating an aircraft who wishes to receive the services referred to in this section in one of either English or French shall so indicate to the appropriate air traffic control unit or flight service station by means of an initial radiocommunication in English or French, as appropriate.

(2) Every flight service station set out in Table 1 to this section and every air traffic control unit set out in Table 3 to this section shall provide advisory services in English and French.

(3) Every air traffic control unit set out in Table 3 to this section shall provide air traffic services in English and French.

(4) Every temporary air traffic control unit located in the province of Quebec shall provide air traffic services in English and French.

(5) Every flight service station set out in Table 2 to this section shall provide, between any person operating an aircraft and any air traffic control unit set out in Table 3 to this section, a relay service of IFR air traffic control messages in English or French, as indicated by that person.

Let's stir the pot a little ... What language; would you expect a pilot working with a bilingual crew, working for an English company, speak to YUL ATC?

[Shady McSly]

blahhh blahhh fuking blahhhh, another 'French on the radio' thread...

[PropToFeather]

I'd say you don't even need to speak French. Really! All you need to do is learn the terms for take off, downwind (which is sometimes "le downwind"), final, French numerals (Runway Twenty-Ten... what a language!), and the words for the compass directions (which, let's be honest, sound almost like English anyways).

Voila! You can now decipher the important parts of most French transmissions.

"But, PropToFeather, I still don't get what they're chatting about the rest of the time!" Well, guess what? Neither do I most of the time (that float guys are out), and I fly in uncontrolled Ontario hinterlands, where people are speaking English the whole time! (Amusingly, the float guy that does the best position reports around here? Thickest French accent I've ever heard coming out of the radio)

[NovaBoy]

I am english only, and have flown a lot in Quebec. Yes there are times when situational awareness has been lacking, but it was in a radar environment. The only time I had a problem with language was on a trip to Trois Riviere. All the traffic in the circuit was speaking french, and we were english only, and in a jet aircraft. We decided to come overhead 1000ft above circuit altitude to figure out where everyone was and to make a safe plan to enter the circuit. Most of the traffic was Air Cadets we found out later. It all worked out safely.

The french/english thing is nowhere near as bad as some make it out to be.

As far as working for a company out of Montreal. I would imagine the language skills required would be up to the employer.

[SuperchargedRS]

It would appear that Go-Juice and Teepee Creeper have a lack of english proficiency as they obviously did not understand what Supercharged was saying.

Read again and keep reading until you understand.

If you still can't understand, re-read the thread title and then read the post once again instead of the being part of the usual automatically offended groups we see so much of these days.

Excuse me?

The original question was addressed and answered well. The disparaging remarks that ensued were narrow sighted to say the least, yours included.

Perhaps you might have something of value to provide us with other than condescending remarks akin to "re-read the thread title" or the downright insulting "automatically offended group".

OK TPCreeper, I was hoping I wouldn't have to but I will patiently explain his post to you so you understand(which should be of some value to you).

The thread is about anglos flying out of Montreal.

Supercharged said said...." fly right by Montreal, those dudes ramble off in French all the time, no friggin idea what they are saying, most all of them COULD speak English and be understood by FAAAAR more of the other pilots, but lacking intelligence to do this, they don't. Makes zero sense to me"

It means, (a) Supercharged flies right by Montreal.
(b) Those dudes (referred to in the thread title as Anglos) ramble off in French all the time.
(c) When those Anglo dudes ramble off in French, they have no friggin' idea what they are saying(in his opinion).
(d) Those Anglos dudes could just speak English and be understood by FAAAAR more of the other pilots.
(e) It would be more intelligent to do a well spoken English broadcast than a poor French one despite their good intentions of trying to accomodate and show respect for our fellow Quebecers when operating in their area.
(f) It all makes no sense to him why people make a poorly understood broadcast.

So...No, my post was not narrow-sighted or condescending as you have stated. But perhaps the post by Supercharged could be easily misinterpreted if not read carefully. Not reading carefully is a big hazard in aviation. Fortunately in this thread, the only result was several insults by those who did not read the post carefully.

As an aside, I personally have taken the time to try to understand the basics of broadcasts in French for times when I fly into Quebec, but, if anything more complex is required, it is better to just switch to English and probably more will understand what I am trying to say. Minimizes wasted airtime and potential misunderstandings. Might help keep me out of a TSB report which as you have noted, I have posted for informational purposes.

Bingo

[pelmet]

Bingo

He seems to have mysteriously disappeared instead of apologizing for insulting you after misreading your post but.... no big deal.

However, an important question was asked.

Can you cite an accident where the TSB found that a contributing factor was "linguistical issues arising from the use of two separate official languages"?

I defy anyone to cite an accident or incident which was directly caused by a Francophone's refusal to speak in English on the radio....

I would like to remind everyone how our Quebec politicians helped kill two pilots.

This is the headline and highlights of a CBC news story on April 6, 2000..."France's plane English plain wrong: Quebec"
"France's decision to force its commercial airline pilots to speak English in the cockpit is causing some turbulence with Quebec. The move, which Paris says is based on safety not culture, has infuriated the Parti Quebecois. The province's Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Louise Beaudoin, has publicly accused France of surrender in the fight against "the imperialism" of English. "I find it scandalous," she told reporters. "Just scandalous." Beaudoin plans to raise her concerns with France next week, when she and Quebec Premier Lucien Bouchard travel to Paris."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/france-s-p ... c-1.224764

They did go to Paris the following week and complained and therefore, the policy was not implemented.

Six weeks later two British pilots died when an MD-80 on takeoff collided with their Shorts cargo plane. The British pilots were cleared into position on a runway at an intersection. They heard but did not understand the takeoff clearance for the French speaking crew of the MD-80 at the threshold.

Here is a contributing factor which probably would have saved the if only......well, you know the rest. And nearly 100 people(or so) on that MD-80 almost died.

"Contributory factors include:
- The use of two languages for radio communications, which meant that the Shorts crew were not conscious that the MD 83 was going to take off."

http://asndata.aviation-safety.net/repo ... G-SSWN.pdf

[TG]

I fly right by Montreal, those dudes ramble off in French all the time, no friggin idea what they are saying, most all of them COULD speak English and be understood by FAAAAR more of the other pilots, but lacking intelligence to do this, they don't.

Makes zero sense to me

You caught me like timel.
Not sure what you tried to prove there besides that even said in English, intentions can be totally misunderstood

[timel]

As annoying it may seem to certain people, speaking French not only part of the culture but it is a right, the so-called safety argument is said by people who can't tolerate anything else but themselves and their little perfect world. Do you really think that AF pilots would accept speaking in English with a French ATC without a protest? You are dreaming in high definition.
http://www.liberation.fr/futurs/2000/03 ... ar-_320302

I think the bilingual ATC are doing a wonderful job, in my experience the aviation in Quebec is very friendly and willing to accommodate outsiders who don't speak any French, all this fuss about language is not constructive for any of us.

The Damn Tower of Babel.

https://youtu.be/iWDEIvjwaFU
https://youtu.be/ZWOOKQlEe5s

[TeePeeCreeper]

He seems to have mysteriously disappeared instead of apologizing for insulting you after misreading your post but.... no big deal.

Are you for real? Why on earth would I apologize for calling out someone whom made a narrow sighted comment?

I would like to remind everyone how our Quebec politicians helped kill two pilots.

Because Canadian provincial politicians carry clout in other countries?

This is the headline and highlights of a CBC news story on April 6, 2000..."France's plane English plain wrong: Quebec"
"France's decision to force its commercial airline pilots to speak English in the cockpit is causing some turbulence with Quebec. The move, which Paris says is based on safety not culture, has infuriated the Parti Quebecois. The province's Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Louise Beaudoin, has publicly accused France of surrender in the fight against "the imperialism" of English. "I find it scandalous," she told reporters. "Just scandalous." Beaudoin plans to raise her concerns with France next week, when she and Quebec Premier Lucien Bouchard travel to Paris."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/france-s-p ... c-1.224764

Do you honestly believe that the leader of the Bloc Québécois influences France's political decisions? Your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on... Then again neither does Lucien Bouchard!

They did go to Paris the following week and complained and therefore, the policy was not implemented.

Are you really naive enough to believe that Lucien Bouchard single handedly prevented that policy from going though?

Six weeks later two British pilots died when an MD-80 on takeoff collided with their Shorts cargo plane. The British pilots were cleared into position on a runway at an intersection. They heard but did not understand the takeoff clearance for the French speaking crew of the MD-80 at the threshold.

Here is a contributing factor which probably would have saved the if only......well, you know the rest. And nearly 100 people(or so) on that MD-80 almost died.

"Contributory factors include:
- The use of two languages for radio communications, which meant that the Shorts crew were not conscious that the MD 83 was going to take off."

http://asndata.aviation-safety.net/repo ... G-SSWN.pdf

That was an unfortunate accident.

Perhaps the onus should have been on the British pilots who didn't follow established procedures and ATC instructions?

I don't know about you Pelmet but whenever I've operated an aircraft in a foreign country where another language was used on the radio I have never hesitated to seek clarification before blindly following ATC instructions. Perhaps I was lucky the same way all the unilingual Anglophones are when they fly out of YUL!?!

Political issues aside, why aren't runway incursions, near misses and accidents occurring in Québec?
Are Anglophone pilots and their Francophone counterparts dropping like flies due to linguistical issues? Of course not.

You seem to be genuinely into the promotion of safety. I would be more than happy to point out a multitude of safety related issues that are vastly more pressing than this one!

Regards,
TPC

[digits_]

Do you really think that AF pilots would accept speaking in English with a French ATC without a protest? You are dreaming in high definition.

That's the point. They won't either. But in Europe the Belgians do it, the Dutch do it, the Germans do it, the Swiss do it, the Italians do it. The French, not so much... Thousands of people learn English to fly, yet a certain language group has a significant lower than average use of the English language in aviation.

I don't blame the pilots for that, if the rules allow it, why bother. I'd like to see the rules change so one language becomes the standard.

[pelmet]

He seems to have mysteriously disappeared instead of apologizing for insulting you after misreading your post but.... no big deal.

Are you for real? Why on earth would I apologize for calling out someone whom made a narrow sighted comment?

I would like to remind everyone how our Quebec politicians helped kill two pilots.

Because Canadian provincial politicians carry clout in other countries?

This is the headline and highlights of a CBC news story on April 6, 2000..."France's plane English plain wrong: Quebec"
"France's decision to force its commercial airline pilots to speak English in the cockpit is causing some turbulence with Quebec. The move, which Paris says is based on safety not culture, has infuriated the Parti Quebecois. The province's Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Louise Beaudoin, has publicly accused France of surrender in the fight against "the imperialism" of English. "I find it scandalous," she told reporters. "Just scandalous." Beaudoin plans to raise her concerns with France next week, when she and Quebec Premier Lucien Bouchard travel to Paris."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/france-s-p ... c-1.224764

Do you honestly believe that the leader of the Bloc Québécois influences France's political decisions? Your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on... Then again neither does Lucien Bouchard!

They did go to Paris the following week and complained and therefore, the policy was not implemented.

Are you really naive enough to believe that Lucien Bouchard single handedly prevented that policy from going though?

Six weeks later two British pilots died when an MD-80 on takeoff collided with their Shorts cargo plane. The British pilots were cleared into position on a runway at an intersection. They heard but did not understand the takeoff clearance for the French speaking crew of the MD-80 at the threshold.

Here is a contributing factor which probably would have saved the if only......well, you know the rest. And nearly 100 people(or so) on that MD-80 almost died.

"Contributory factors include:
- The use of two languages for radio communications, which meant that the Shorts crew were not conscious that the MD 83 was going to take off."

http://asndata.aviation-safety.net/repo ... G-SSWN.pdf

That was an unfortunate accident.

Perhaps the onus should have been on the British pilots who didn't follow established procedures and ATC instructions?

I don't know about you Pelmet but whenever I've operated an aircraft in a foreign country where another language was used on the radio I have never hesitated to seek clarification before blindly following ATC instructions. Perhaps I was lucky the same way all the unilingual Anglophones are when they fly out of YUL!?!

Political issues aside, why aren't runway incursions, near misses and accidents occurring in Québec?
Are Anglophone pilots and their Francophone counterparts dropping like flies due to linguistical issues? Of course not.

You seem to be genuinely into the promotion of safety. I would be more than happy to point out a multitude of safety related issues that are vastly more pressing than this one!

Regards,
TPC

I am not sure why you seem angry. You were proven wrong in your interpretation of a post which you refuse to acknowledge and then after forcefully asking whether language differences had caused an accident in your belief that it has never happened, I showed that it did happen with timeline of how it almost didn't have to happen.

You have come up with an extremely weak argument that it was the British pilots fault and that we should not expect an Air France pilot to speak anything other than French to ATC in France but you can't change the reality that language differences on ATC was a cause as stated by the investigators in France. A last line of defence, common language on the frequency did not exist. It is very nice of you to tell the few of us on this forum how you operate in a foreign country but it doesn't change that lack of a last line of defence that the French investigators discussed as not existing.

You are correct that there was a fight from the Air France pilots union on the issue as seen on this link.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 82530.html

I am sure the overall combined contribution of several factors of language pride over safety had its effect on the change in policy. They, like you were willing to accept the higher level of risk and an MD-80 load of pax almost died for it along with the two dead pilots.

You asked a question based on your inability to comprehend a post earlier in the thread. However, you still call it narrow-minded so why not explain in detail for us how it is narrow-minded.

Your inability to comprehend that post(which others did not as well due to its poor wording) set you off on this further subject. Because of your lack of knowledge about this tragedy, you had pre-conceived answer being in favour of your opinion(that language differences had never been causal to an accident) and I proved you wrong. You appear to be unable to admit an error and appear to get angry when this happens. I suggest you re-read the title and Superchargers post once again, then read your question, then my reply.

Just because there are other safety issues does not take away from an accident involving an airliner that you said had never happened.

Do you honestly believe that the leader of the Bloc Québécois influences France's political decisions? Your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on... Then again neither does Lucien Bouchard!

For your information, Lucien Bouchard still has one leg.