PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

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ago.xr
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PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#1 Post by ago.xr » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:33 am

Hello everybody,
I'm new to the forum, just signed since I will be starting soon me PPL in Vancouver area.
The flight school I chose is CFC at Boundary Bay, main reason behind this choice has been that they agreed on doing a PPL on a taildragger (if I'll be able...) Apparently it's not that common at all to find schools providing this service (first tried AboveAlaska but ownership changed recently and they don't allow anymore initial training on their Citabria).

Opinions about CFC on this forum are controversial... I really hope I'll have a nice time there.
Suggestions and opinions are more than welcome obviously.

Thanks very much!
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#2 Post by AirFrame » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:21 pm

Welcome, and good luck! Learning on a tailwheel will definitely teach you what your feet are for. Learning in a Cessna, not so much...
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#3 Post by TeePeeCreeper » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:53 pm

AirFrame wrote:Welcome, and good luck! Learning on a tailwheel will definitely teach you what your feet are for. Learning in a Cessna, not so much...
Sure because all Cessna's are trike configured.... ever fly a 180/185 or even heard of them?
To the OP, beware of the power of the internet and those whom freely proclaim themselves to be know it all's!!!!

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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#4 Post by ago.xr » Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:00 am

The main criterion with which I selected the school to do my PPL has been to do my first 50 hours ( maybe more...) on an aircraft not as "forgiving" as a traditional tricycle plane (even if actually the traditional is the tailwheel...) in order to learn that set of skills you wouldn't really need on a C172.
I'm already studying a bit of "Tailwheel theory" on -The Compleat Tailwheel Pilot-.

Why do you think it is so rarer to find a school willing to rent you a tailwheel for the PPL?
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#5 Post by cgzro » Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:50 am

Unfortunately tail wheel aircraft are more expensive to own and operate because the insurance is higher as a result of higher landing damage due to ground loops by the pilots. Fabric aircraft should really be hangared which adds $500 a month or so to the overall operating costs too.

The Citabria is a great little airplane, sounds like lots of fun. I'd suggest investing in a good headset since the seating arrangement means your instructors main mode of communication has to be verbal. The last thing you want is a crappy intercom situation.
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#6 Post by cgzro » Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:50 am

Unfortunately tail wheel aircraft are more expensive to own and operate because the insurance is higher as a result of higher landing damage due to ground loops by the pilots. Fabric aircraft should really be hangared which adds $500 a month or so to the overall operating costs too.

The Citabria is a great little airplane, sounds like lots of fun. I'd suggest investing in a good headset since the seating arrangement means your instructors main mode of communication has to be verbal. The last thing you want is a crappy intercom situation.
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#7 Post by AirFrame » Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:46 am

TeePeeCreeper wrote:Sure because all Cessna's are trike configured.... ever fly a 180/185 or even heard of them?
I wasn't aware there was a school with a 180/185 available for ab-initio training. Can you tell me where that is?
To the OP, beware of the power of the internet and those whom freely proclaim themselves to be know it all's!!!!
Also be aware of those who like to call people names just for the heck of it.
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#8 Post by redlaser » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:02 pm

Don't expect to go solo before you have acquired a fair number of take off and landings,
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#9 Post by PilotDAR » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:12 pm

ago,

If the school can't teach you properly on a taildragger, that would be somewhat their responsibility, they're doing the teaching, right! That said, pay them happily for the time it take for you to learn well, don't rush your training. This is not a race to the finish, it's your tool to stay alive flying a plane. You never want to be up there b yourself, regretting not taking the extra training which would now get you down safely!

Focus on the basic stuff, hands and feet, and what it looks like out the windshield. There will be instruments in the plane, they will distract you form learning to feel the plane, ask your instructor if they have any sticky notes or soap dish suction cup things to cover most of them up for you, so you can learn well. And electronics? ask if you can ignore all of that for the first while - they're great for communication and navigation, but otherwise distracting from learning how to use your hands and feet!
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#10 Post by lhalliday » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:29 pm

Cool! I did a couple of hours in CFC's Citabria (GOMC) and thought it would make an excellent primary trainer. A total hands-on seat-of-the-pants plane.

Things happened and I wasn't able to follow through with tailwheel stuff, but maybe some day...

Please keep us posted on how it goes.

...laura
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#11 Post by Cat Driver » Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:19 pm

Don't expect to go solo before you have acquired a fair number of take off and landings,
Before nose wheel trainers were available we all learned on tail wheel airplanes.

From my experience teaching flying there was no difference in the time to solo on tail wheel airplanes than time to solo on nose wheel airplanes.
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#12 Post by PilotDAR » Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:25 pm

From my experience teaching flying there was no difference in the time to solo on tail wheel airplanes than time to solo on nose wheel airplanes.
'Must have been fine instructors back then Cat!
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#13 Post by Cat Driver » Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:50 pm

To be honest I think they were.

If for no other reason than the airplanes required more attention to directional control on the ground.

One thing I do know is the time to solo was no different than with nose wheel airplanes and that was because the student had to keep them under control when on the ground.

......................................................................................

........................................................................................

When I train people to convert to tail wheel I do not take them flying until they can control the airplane on the runway at all speeds both with the tail wheel on the ground and with the tail wheel in the air on the runway.

On the first flights I taught wheel landings to get their flare height judgement correct, then three point landings.

I counted down the height verbally from fifty feet to wheel contact, that really helped them get the picture...and I explained there they should be looking at each part of the approach, flare, hold off and touch down.

......................................................................................

....................................................................................

Using the above method of teaching the average time to sending them off by them self was around two hours.
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#14 Post by 5x5 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:10 pm

Boy, I never get tired of hearing about "the good old days".
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#15 Post by Cat Driver » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:19 pm

The good old days are generally products of ones own life experiences and they differ from person to person.

With regard to my comments I have written the methods of teaching that I personally use.

And like the good old days each of us have our own version of what we find to be our choice, I have lived trough what some here see as the old days and also have been exposed to today's modern technology.

Now a serious question 5x5, what do you find wrong with my way of teaching tail wheel flying?.
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#16 Post by lhalliday » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:31 pm

I found takeoffs in a Citabria relatively easy, but you had to be 200% on the ball for landings. Punch and jab, keep it in line, fly it, steer it. Great, in other words. :-)

My plane (Beech 23 Musketeer) isn't a taildragger, but with a castering nose wheel and toe brake steering you have to be a lot more active about steering it on the ground. Not quite taildragger territory, but it won't go in a straight line for long without you guiding it.

...laura
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#17 Post by Cat Driver » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:44 pm

Laura:

The Musketeer is a nice comfortable little airplane and Beech makes really good airplanes. One of my favorite memories are of my first check out in the Beech 18 in 1964 when a company I was chief pilot for bought one for hauling auto parts at night.

The Beech 18 is a real nice machine.

And the Beech Baron is a superb machine.

If you live in B.C. my partner in the Cub will soon have it finished and if you want some real affordable training on it P.M. me and I personally will teach you. :mrgreen:

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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#18 Post by MattW » Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:14 pm

My first solo was in Citabria GOMC at CFC. It had been my goal to get my PPL there on the tailwheel. I didn't in the end simply because of the commute to the airport, but I'd recommend them for sure and I have no regrets about the training I did there. The Cessna's are fine little planes that do exactly what they're supposed to but a Citabria is a lot of fun to fly. GOMC wasn't overly laden with electronics either.
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#19 Post by NunavutPA-12 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:41 pm

My tailwheel training was done on a Citabria at a well-known western Canadian flight school. Frankly, I found it pretty difficult, but I had only flown nose-wheel airplanes previously. When I got home I found my PA-12/18 homebuilt to be much more forgiving, so maybe there was an advantage to learning on a more "spirited" tail-dragger.

By the way, that particular flight school would not teach wheel landings because (they said) too many students were putting the prop tips into the asphalt. I had to teach myself wheel landings when I got home.
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#20 Post by 7ECA » Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:47 pm

NunavutPA-12 wrote: By the way, that particular flight school would not teach wheel landings because (they said) too many students were putting the prop tips into the asphalt. I had to teach myself wheel landings when I got home.
What the hell? How can any school have a policy like that, and say that they have trained someone to be a competent tailwheel pilot?

When I did my training, I had to master three point and wheel landings, otherwise M.P. was sure as hell not going to be satisfied enough to sign me off.
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#21 Post by Old Dog Flying » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:17 pm

Starting out on a taildragger seemed so natural to me as a 16 year old back in 1952 with the Fleet Canuck then the Cessna 140 and the Piper Pacer that even today after nearly 3 years of being groundeddue to medical, I'm certain that it would still be the same.

Like Chuck we saw really good instructors, most of whom had WW2 experience and they were a different breed,,,mine flew Spitfires...and his biggest beef was "keep your head on a swivel and let me hear those eyeballs clicking" and use your bloody feet..

As for soloing of the 13 cadets, Air Cadets that is, only one took more than 6 hours to solo and not a single bent prop. Some will pull out statistics to show rhat my generation had a greater numver of accidents but they also think that the Canuck is a dangerous trainer to which I call BS! I've flown 39 Canucks and my last two students went through on a Canuck..without incident and both are very successful CPL today.

Enjoy the Citabria and dragging your butt,,,it is the most fun that you will ever have with your clothes on!

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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#22 Post by Cat Driver » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:05 pm

By the way, that particular flight school would not teach wheel landings because (they said) too many students were putting the prop tips into the asphalt.
How do you put the prop into the asphalt?

I have been thinking about this all day and can not recall ever hearing of that happening.

If wheel landings are not taught then the pilot should not be flying a tail wheel airplane , let alone teaching it......period.
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#23 Post by pelmet » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:42 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
By the way, that particular flight school would not teach wheel landings because (they said) too many students were putting the prop tips into the asphalt.
How do you put the prop into the asphalt?

I have been thinking about this all day and can not recall ever hearing of that happening.

If wheel landings are not taught then the pilot should not be flying a tail wheel airplane , let alone teaching it......period.
You have never heard of a taildragger nosing over?

OK.
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#24 Post by Cat Driver » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:50 pm

Maybe I should be more specific...

...I don't recall a tail wheel airplane nosing over because the pilot was doing a wheel landing.

But that does not mean someone has not done it.

In my own personal experience flying tail wheel airplanes the wheel landing is an easier to control attitude than the three point landing, especially in cross winds.

Then again if a school does not teach wheel landings then anything is possible.
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Re: PPL (on tailwheel) at Canadian Flight Centre

#25 Post by cgzro » Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:09 am

I tend to agree, nose overs happen usually because somebody locked up the brakes and trust me the brakes can lift your tail up just find when the tail wheel is on the ground. Usually somebody will brake too hard on one side so the plane ground loops before it has a chance to nose over.

Two pointers, or my actual favourite a tail low two pointer is a very very useful technique for landing with strong gusty winds and everybody should be taught all the different ways to take-off and land a tail dragger if you are going to be flying them.
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