True North wrote:
To paraphrase; you've been drinking way too much ALPA Kool Aid.
I had the misfortune of being represented by them for a portion of my career, an utterly useless organization. And I was working for an American carrier. If you think ALPA Canada is going to do anything for you that your own association can't, you're delusional. Oh, they will take your money though. They are very good at that.
You seem to be in the minority on this particular forum in your disdain for ALPA.
Yep, it costs a few bucks to be part of the largest professional pilot's organization in the world that provides the best in labour relations expertise, pilot medical support, legal support and - maybe most important of all - has been a prime driver in a lot of flight safety enhancements that have been made over the association's long history.
True North wrote:
To paraphrase; you've been drinking way too much ALPA Kool Aid.
I had the misfortune of being represented by them for a portion of my career, an utterly useless organization. And I was working for an American carrier. If you think ALPA Canada is going to do anything for you that your own association can't, you're delusional. Oh, they will take your money though. They are very good at that.
You seem to be in the minority on this particular forum in your disdain for ALPA.
Yep, it costs a few bucks to be part of the largest professional pilot's organization in the world that provides the best in labour relations expertise, pilot medical support, legal support and - maybe most important of all - has been a prime driver in a lot of flight safety enhancements that have been made over the association's long history.
What has the WJPA done for the industry?
What has the WJPA done for the industry?? They represent the WJ pilots, not the industry and it seems to me the working conditions at WJ are pretty good. WestJet also has an enviable safety record so they are doing something right.
ALPA is a corporation. They don't give a shit about you or your working conditions. Don't be naive, they will tell you everything you want to hear because they are in dire financial straits right now and care only about your money. Who is it, FedEx and Delta that are suing ALPA? Have you talked to them? You probably should.
True North wrote:
To paraphrase; you've been drinking way too much ALPA Kool Aid.
I had the misfortune of being represented by them for a portion of my career, an utterly useless organization. And I was working for an American carrier. If you think ALPA Canada is going to do anything for you that your own association can't, you're delusional. Oh, they will take your money though. They are very good at that.
You seem to be in the minority on this particular forum in your disdain for ALPA.
Yep, it costs a few bucks to be part of the largest professional pilot's organization in the world that provides the best in labour relations expertise, pilot medical support, legal support and - maybe most important of all - has been a prime driver in a lot of flight safety enhancements that have been made over the association's long history.
What has the WJPA done for the industry?
What has the WJPA done for the industry?? They represent the WJ pilots, not the industry and it seems to me the working conditions at WJ are pretty good. WestJet also has an enviable safety record so they are doing something right.
ALPA is a corporation. They don't give a shit about you or your working conditions. Don't be naive, they will tell you everything you want to hear because they are in dire financial straits right now and care only about your money. Who is it, FedEx and Delta that are suing ALPA? Have you talked to them? You probably should.
I am curious True North, who do you work for currently? You seem to have a complete misunderstanding of what the WJPA is. It is not an association in the same way as ACPA is. The contract "negotiated" is not legally binding. Members from WJPA recently met with Mike Duffy, and it wasn't to improve aviation safety. WJPA represents managment, nothing more. They do no represent the Westjet pilots in any fashion what so ever. So please inform us, who is it you work for today. Who did you work for in the passed that you don't like ALPA. And if you are going to say an airline is suing ALPA, i think you need to do better than, "I think it is FEDEX or Delta."
I am currently represented by ALPA. I am happy with my representation. I couldn't imagine being a pilot and not having professional representation. I may not agree with everything ALPA international does, but our MEC guys are solid.
TrueNorth
"Don't be naive, they will tell you everything you want to hear because they are in dire financial straits right now and care only about your money. Who is it, FedEx and Delta that are suing ALPA?"
How about showing us some concrete proof of your claim.
rxl wrote:
You seem to be in the minority on this particular forum in your disdain for ALPA.
Yep, it costs a few bucks to be part of the largest professional pilot's organization in the world that provides the best in labour relations expertise, pilot medical support, legal support and - maybe most important of all - has been a prime driver in a lot of flight safety enhancements that have been made over the association's long history.
What has the WJPA done for the industry?
What has the WJPA done for the industry?? They represent the WJ pilots, not the industry and it seems to me the working conditions at WJ are pretty good. WestJet also has an enviable safety record so they are doing something right.
ALPA is a corporation. They don't give a shit about you or your working conditions. Don't be naive, they will tell you everything you want to hear because they are in dire financial straits right now and care only about your money. Who is it, FedEx and Delta that are suing ALPA? Have you talked to them? You probably should.
I am curious True North, who do you work for currently? You seem to have a complete misunderstanding of what the WJPA is. It is not an association in the same way as ACPA is. The contract "negotiated" is not legally binding. Members from WJPA recently met with Mike Duffy, and it wasn't to improve aviation safety. WJPA represents managment, nothing more. They do no represent the Westjet pilots in any fashion what so ever. So please inform us, who is it you work for today. Who did you work for in the passed that you don't like ALPA. And if you are going to say an airline is suing ALPA, i think you need to do better than, "I think it is FEDEX or Delta."
I am currently represented by ALPA. I am happy with my representation. I couldn't imagine being a pilot and not having professional representation. I may not agree with everything ALPA international does, but our MEC guys are solid.
I don't work for anyone, I've been retired for a while now. I worked for a time at a major US carrier and was represented by ALPA. I do some consulting work sporadically and I maintain an interest in the industry because I still have a lot of friends working.
You are wrong on most all of your points. The contract that the WJ pilots have negotiated is most certainly legally binding under Canadian Labour Law.
Do you know why the WJPA reps met with Mike Duffy?
I have met a couple of members of the WJPA, they absolutely represent the pilots, not management. I can't imagine where you get that idea.
3down&loct wrote:TrueNorth
"Don't be naive, they will tell you everything you want to hear because they are in dire financial straits right now and care only about your money. Who is it, FedEx and Delta that are suing ALPA?"
How about showing us some concrete proof of your claim.
Smitty beat me to it but I would think that anyone prepared to hand over thousands of their hard earned dollars to any corporation would to a little due diligence first.
Have you even looked into ALPA's financial state? How will you feel when, a year or so after you have signed up and while you are still bitterly embroiled trying to get your first contract signed, you're several thousand dollars in the hole because of your dues and ALPA tells you that you need to fork over another $5000 (or more) right now? Because they can and they likely will.
rxl wrote:
You seem to be in the minority on this particular forum in your disdain for ALPA.
Yep, it costs a few bucks to be part of the largest professional pilot's organization in the world that provides the best in labour relations expertise, pilot medical support, legal support and - maybe most important of all - has been a prime driver in a lot of flight safety enhancements that have been made over the association's long history.
What has the WJPA done for the industry?
What has the WJPA done for the industry?? They represent the WJ pilots, not the industry and it seems to me the working conditions at WJ are pretty good. WestJet also has an enviable safety record so they are doing something right.
ALPA is a corporation. They don't give a shit about you or your working conditions. Don't be naive, they will tell you everything you want to hear because they are in dire financial straits right now and care only about your money. Who is it, FedEx and Delta that are suing ALPA? Have you talked to them? You probably should.
I am curious True North, who do you work for currently? You seem to have a complete misunderstanding of what the WJPA is. It is not an association in the same way as ACPA is. The contract "negotiated" is not legally binding. Members from WJPA recently met with Mike Duffy, and it wasn't to improve aviation safety. WJPA represents managment, nothing more. They do no represent the Westjet pilots in any fashion what so ever. So please inform us, who is it you work for today. Who did you work for in the passed that you don't like ALPA. And if you are going to say an airline is suing ALPA, i think you need to do better than, "I think it is FEDEX or Delta."
I am currently represented by ALPA. I am happy with my representation. I couldn't imagine being a pilot and not having professional representation. I may not agree with everything ALPA international does, but our MEC guys are solid.
Hi Truedude.
Your statement on the legal status of non union representation in Canada is incorrect. Unlike the States, Canada did not follow suit by outlawing non unions plans.
Agreements negotiated by non union bodies may not be recognized by the CIRB, but they do fall under common law. All this means is a dispute is brought to the courts instead of the CIRB (which is just a quasi judicial body that administers the labour code).
TrueNorth,
Sure Fedex is suing. Hell I could sue anyone at anytime, however till the case goes to court and a judge decides nothing can be considered as factual.
As far as financial stuff. http://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/air ... eighing-in
Thanks for the reference. But the WJPA still doesn't have the bargaining power that a union has, or the tools a union has. Twice in recent memory a vote was canceled once it was clear to management the numbers were not going in their favor. That sort of nonsense needs to end. Nor are the WJPA representatives separated from management. I also don't agree with your comment on the CIRB being a quasi judicial body. Ask the Air Canada pilots how "quasi" they were when the seniority issue was being played out. In any case, there are over 300 active resumes at Air Canada from Westjet pilots. I doubt there are many Air Canada pilots with resumes at Westjet....
@TrueNorth
Your still not answering the question. Who did you work for? Why is this such a big secret? When did you retire? What decade? What sort of consulting work do you do? And for whom?
As far as the WJPA representing the pilots, that is a joke. Twice they brought something to the pilot group that has been voted down. Everyone I know who works there does not believe this association is representing them.
"The CIRB is an independent, representational, quasi-judicial tribunal responsible for the interpretation and administration of Part I (Industrial Relations), and certain provisions of Part II (Occupational Health and Safety) of the Canada Labour Code"
Here's the link to their webpage with he rest of the text.
Your still not answering the question. Who did you work for? Why is this such a big secret? When did you retire? What decade? What sort of consulting work do you do? And for whom?
Why do you care?
As far as the WJPA representing the pilots, that is a joke. Twice they brought something to the pilot group that has been voted down.
In my near 40 years in the biz, I can't remember a proposal that passed on the first initiative. That's just how bargaining goes. It sure as hell doesn't mean the representatives are management shills.
Everyone I know who works there does not believe this association is representing them.
3down&loct wrote:TrueNorth,
Sure Fedex is suing. Hell I could sue anyone at anytime, however till the case goes to court and a judge decides nothing can be considered as factual.
As far as financial stuff. http://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/air ... eighing-in
You're right I'm sure. There can't possibly be any good reason for the FedEx pilots to launch a lawsuit. Probably just a couple of bad apples trying to stir the pot, everyone else is deliriously happy.
The last two contracts voted for at Jazz that were negotiated by ALPA passed on the first vote. So... .
As far as who you worked for, it goes to credibility; your throwing a lot of stuff around, yet not prepared to indicate why you're so jaded towards ALPA. Hard to take seriously, particularly when it appears your have a reason to so staunchly defend the WJPA, while so admittedly opposing ALPA...
Like it or not, WestJet Pilots will likely unionize this time around. And they are better for doing so.
The last two contracts voted for at Jazz that were negotiated by ALPA passed on the first vote. So... .
So what? Seems to me the last one in particular was rather concessionary, no?
As far as who you worked for, it goes to credibility; your throwing a lot of stuff around, yet not prepared to indicate why your so jaded towards ALPA. Hard to take seriously, particularly when it appears your have a reason to so staunchly defend the WJPA, while so admittedly opposing ALPA...
Like it or not, WestJet Pilots will likely unionize this time around. And they are better for doing so.
I've posted my history on here a couple of times, can't be bothered to do it again and don't care whether you take me seriously or not. I'm posting my opinions based on my personal experiences. Take them or leave them.
The WestJet pilots may well end up with APLA, we'll know soon enough and in the end it doesn't matter to me even a little bit. You are the guys who will have to fork over the dough and live with your decision, not me.
So what? Seems to me the last one in particular was rather concessionary, no?
This has been discussed to death but the WJPA and Encore as well as AC, Sky and GGN share a lot more of the blame for this than ALPA.
Unions do what their members tell them or agreements get voted down. Simple as that. Companies get the union they deserve and employees get the kind of union they instruct to further their goals.
So what? Seems to me the last one in particular was rather concessionary, no?
This has been discussed to death but the WJPA and Encore as well as AC, Sky and GGN share a lot more of the blame for this than ALPA.
So what you're saying is that even with all their "resources" and "expertise", ALPA still couldn't save them from market forces.
When one pilot group consistently erodes the wages and working conditions of an entire industry, I am not sure how you believe any union can simply ignore those facts when it comes to negotiate. But lets not kid ourselves, Westjet began this race to the bottom back in 1997. They were the lowest paid 737 drivers on the planet. This is why we need to stand as a solid group.
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Last edited by truedude on Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
I highly doubt that the WJ pilots will vote to support ULCC unless their compensation and working conditions are the same as WJ mainline. Perhaps GS will threaten to take away the WB toys. Hopefully they will call his bluff. If a plane has 2 engines, 2 wings, and weighs 180,000lbs then the pay is the pay is the pay. No more Rouge style discounts.
