I thought you were able to strike in February, why are you talking September now?

Canadaflyer46 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 9:06 am

RippleRock wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 8:52 am Those wages make me physically ill.

Not one is "outstanding". The are all "meh". Remember how hard you worked to get here, and how "fragile" your career choice is. Simply forgetting eye protection when changing your brakes will end it forever in an instant.

When you factor in the fact that inflation has been around 4% on average for the last 5 years, these numbers look even worse.

A Hawaiian FO on the 321 will eclipse --every wage on that table-- at year 5, and then some.


How about we work on a little self respect before this career gets swept into the dust bin entirely. Start by asking your friend why they aren't supporting the Negotiations Team with a red lanyard and frowning upon "extra work".

Don't underestimate how many other carriers in these tables use AC as their "benchmark". We all depend on AC pilots getting their shit together.

As another perspective, an FO at Southwest will eclipse a NB CA at Air Canada in their second year. Truly depressing how bad our flagship airline pays.

From End of 2023 Salary Survey on Airline Pilot Forums Page 33.
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/majo ... ey-33.html

"...I heard we had some FO's in the 300-400 range. Heard some captain hit almost 900. I was well north of 500 with all premium and 401k excess. There was plenty of open time and premium last year. Although not as much as in 2022. Doing well with initial open time and LIP can set you up to get some high credits."

co-joe wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 5:41 pm I thought you were able to strike in February, why are you talking September now?

Negotiations are being mediated now because the company was essentially avoiding them. Currently, negotiations will continue until June 1 to try to come to an agreement, although the mediator can call an "impasse" at any point. If no deal is reached by June 1, the strike counter starts (it's about 90 days).

The goal is to get agreement on as many points of the contract as possible before going into a strike environment to avoid a rushed deal with a bunch of gaps.

And believe me a fall strike hurts the company nearly as much as summer. Loss of snowbird season and the effect on holiday bookings will be devastating.

thepoors wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 5:12 am

co-joe wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 5:41 pm I thought you were able to strike in February, why are you talking September now?

Negotiations are being mediated now because the company was essentially avoiding them. Currently, negotiations will continue until June 1 to try to come to an agreement, although the mediator can call an "impasse" at any point. If no deal is reached by June 1, the strike counter starts (it's about 90 days).

The goal is to get agreement on as many points of the contract as possible before going into a strike environment to avoid a rushed deal with a bunch of gaps.

And believe me a fall strike hurts the company nearly as much as summer. Loss of snowbird season and the effect on holiday bookings will be devastating.

Just for clarification. A deal doesn’t need to be reached by June 1st. That is just the first opportunity for anyone other than the mediator to declare an impasse. That would start the clock. If both sides feel progress is being made, we can continue beyond June in full negotiations.

braaap Braap wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 3:00 pm

cjp wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 1:40 pm
Thank you for the update, looks good now. Bigger delta than I originally thought for Porter and AC, we got work to do to close that gap a bit.

Cheers.

What sort of work do you propose we do? FOAG gives us 0 ability to pressure/use leverage. We’re along for the ride until the executives decide attrition/recruitment need another boost.

Do you ever reach out to your respective FOAG representatives to make a point. Perhaps they think everything is alright and jobs done. No, it's not a union, but at the end of the day if enough people come together and say we need an adjustment, the company will notice.

I imagine though at this pace that ALPA carding is just around the corner, for better or worse...

I saw that you got that picture from our website.

We updated the picture along with the webpage. You can find it here: Salary of a Pilot in Canada

If anyone has updates to that in the future, please email us.

BTD wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 7:05 am

thepoors wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 5:12 am

co-joe wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 5:41 pm I thought you were able to strike in February, why are you talking September now?

Negotiations are being mediated now because the company was essentially avoiding them. Currently, negotiations will continue until June 1 to try to come to an agreement, although the mediator can call an "impasse" at any point. If no deal is reached by June 1, the strike counter starts (it's about 90 days).

The goal is to get agreement on as many points of the contract as possible before going into a strike environment to avoid a rushed deal with a bunch of gaps.

And believe me a fall strike hurts the company nearly as much as summer. Loss of snowbird season and the effect on holiday bookings will be devastating.

Just for clarification. A deal doesn’t need to be reached by June 1st. That is just the first opportunity for anyone other than the mediator to declare an impasse. That would start the clock. If both sides feel progress is being made, we can continue beyond June in full negotiations.

Yes, that's correct. However I think it would be unwise to continue negotiations beyond June 1. As Ripple alluded to the company is happy to keep dragging this out indefinitely. Starting the strike counter puts them on the clock while still allowing time for meaningful discussion to happen and get a deal done. It's time to wrap this up.

thepoors wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 7:51 pm

BTD wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 7:05 am

thepoors wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 5:12 am

Negotiations are being mediated now because the company was essentially avoiding them. Currently, negotiations will continue until June 1 to try to come to an agreement, although the mediator can call an "impasse" at any point. If no deal is reached by June 1, the strike counter starts (it's about 90 days).

The goal is to get agreement on as many points of the contract as possible before going into a strike environment to avoid a rushed deal with a bunch of gaps.

And believe me a fall strike hurts the company nearly as much as summer. Loss of snowbird season and the effect on holiday bookings will be devastating.

Just for clarification. A deal doesn’t need to be reached by June 1st. That is just the first opportunity for anyone other than the mediator to declare an impasse. That would start the clock. If both sides feel progress is being made, we can continue beyond June in full negotiations.

Yes, that's correct. However I think it would be unwise to continue negotiations beyond June 1. As Ripple alluded to the company is happy to keep dragging this out indefinitely. Starting the strike counter puts them on the clock while still allowing time for meaningful discussion to happen and get a deal done. It's time to wrap this up.

Perhaps. I was only stating what is, not what ought to be. You are quite likely correct though.

Just wanted to throw in some pilot pay scales from around the world. I think what's clear is that our senior pilots are doing alright. It's the junior FO's who really need a boost to come even close to our international peers. Australia is a similar geography with a small population spread out over large distances. There's no reason the pilot pay should have such a disparity. Threw in United for good measure...

EDIT: fixed formatting
EDIT2: Corrected mistake with Emirates salary.
Sources:
1. Qantas Long Haul: https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/ ... DU1LnBkZg2
2. Qantas Short haul: https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/ ... TI2LnBkZg2
3. Air New Zealand: https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-ze ... st11480451
4. UAL: https://d2r1lrrqctgamh.cloudfront.net/U ... -09-29.pdf
5. Emirates and Qatar: PCC
6. Cathay: Attached below

yowflyer23 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 6:29 am Just wanted to throw in some pilot pay scales from around the world. I think what's clear is that our senior pilots are doing alright. It's the junior FO's who really need a boost to come even close to our international peers. Australia is a similar geography with a small population spread out over large distances. There's no reason the pilot pay should have such a disparity. Threw in United for good measure...

internationalWBCA.JPG
internationalNBCA.JPG


Sources:
1. Qantas Long Haul: https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/ ... DU1LnBkZg2
2. Qantas Short haul: https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/ ... TI2LnBkZg2
3. Air New Zealand: https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-ze ... st11480451
4. UAL: https://d2r1lrrqctgamh.cloudfront.net/U ... -09-29.pdf
5. Emirates and Qatar: PCC
6. Cathay: Attached below

You quote "backwater" international wages and say Captains are doing alright in this country?? Remember Cathay was decimated by Covid and their "authoritarian rulers". ANZ and Qantas have been hammered by allowing the Mid-East carriers to blast their most lucrative market routes into tiny bits.

When your metric is "the very worst of the worst" maybe we are doing fine in the left seat here. Thank you for highlighting the plight of our FO's though. They are indeed the lowest of the low.


Is there a reason you only posted the first year or two of some scales, while leaving out the rest? Emirates has only one year on the Captain scale??? I'm getting serious "management schill" vibes for some reason.

Leaving out wages looks a little too much like a "poorly crafted narrative". Not buying, sorry.

RippleRock wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:12 am

yowflyer23 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 6:29 am Just wanted to throw in some pilot pay scales from around the world. I think what's clear is that our senior pilots are doing alright. It's the junior FO's who really need a boost to come even close to our international peers. Australia is a similar geography with a small population spread out over large distances. There's no reason the pilot pay should have such a disparity. Threw in United for good measure...

internationalWBCA.JPG
internationalNBCA.JPG


Sources:
1. Qantas Long Haul: https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/ ... DU1LnBkZg2
2. Qantas Short haul: https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/ ... TI2LnBkZg2
3. Air New Zealand: https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-ze ... st11480451
4. UAL: https://d2r1lrrqctgamh.cloudfront.net/U ... -09-29.pdf
5. Emirates and Qatar: PCC
6. Cathay: Attached below

You quote "backwater" international wages and say Captains are doing alright in this country?? Remember Cathay was decimated by Covid and their "authoritarian rulers". ANZ and Qantas have been hammered by allowing the Mid-East carriers to blast their most lucrative market routes into tiny bits.

When your metric is "the very worst of the worst" maybe we are doing fine in the left seat here. Thank you for highlighting the plight of our FO's though. They are indeed the lowest of the low.


Is there a reason you only posted the first year or two of some scales, while leaving out the rest? Emirates has only one year on the Captain scale??? I'm getting serious "management schill" vibes for some reason.

Leaving out wages looks a little too much like a "poorly crafted narrative". Not buying, sorry.

Damn. How about you get off his back? Guy's putting together factual comparison tables and citing sources on his own free time and you're attacking him and calling him a management schill? Give me a break.

You'll get a lot further with your "HOLD THE LINE" rhetoric if you stop alienating yourself and attacking people who are basically on your side. Did you look at the sources they provided? They probably only used 1 year for Emirates CA because their source is PCC. If you have access to the full paycale send him in that direction. Otherwise you're just picking apart someone's efforts without trying to add anything and it's just going to push people away and make you seem like you're delusional.

@yowflyer23 Thank you for continuing to expand these and keep them updated. Your efforts are appreciated!

RippleRock wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:12 am

yowflyer23 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 6:29 am Just wanted to throw in some pilot pay scales from around the world. I think what's clear is that our senior pilots are doing alright. It's the junior FO's who really need a boost to come even close to our international peers. Australia is a similar geography with a small population spread out over large distances. There's no reason the pilot pay should have such a disparity. Threw in United for good measure...

internationalWBCA.JPG
internationalNBCA.JPG


Sources:
1. Qantas Long Haul: https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/ ... DU1LnBkZg2
2. Qantas Short haul: https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/ ... TI2LnBkZg2
3. Air New Zealand: https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-ze ... st11480451
4. UAL: https://d2r1lrrqctgamh.cloudfront.net/U ... -09-29.pdf
5. Emirates and Qatar: PCC
6. Cathay: Attached below

You quote "backwater" international wages and say Captains are doing alright in this country?? Remember Cathay was decimated by Covid and their "authoritarian rulers". ANZ and Qantas have been hammered by allowing the Mid-East carriers to blast their most lucrative market routes into tiny bits.

When your metric is "the very worst of the worst" maybe we are doing fine in the left seat here. Thank you for highlighting the plight of our FO's though. They are indeed the lowest of the low.


Is there a reason you only posted the first year or two of some scales, while leaving out the rest? Emirates has only one year on the Captain scale??? I'm getting serious "management schill" vibes for some reason.

Leaving out wages looks a little too much like a "poorly crafted narrative". Not buying, sorry.

The guy is pro increased wages all around, is trying to build sheets to compare the disparities and you’re calling him a shill? Normally I’m onboard with what you say but wow.

RippleRock wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:12 am
You quote "backwater" international wages and say Captains are doing alright in this country?? Remember Cathay was decimated by Covid and their "authoritarian rulers". ANZ and Qantas have been hammered by allowing the Mid-East carriers to blast their most lucrative market routes into tiny bits.

When your metric is "the very worst of the worst" maybe we are doing fine in the left seat here. Thank you for highlighting the plight of our FO's though. They are indeed the lowest of the low.


Is there a reason you only posted the first year or two of some scales, while leaving out the rest? Emirates has only one year on the Captain scale??? I'm getting serious "management schill" vibes for some reason.

Leaving out wages looks a little too much like a "poorly crafted narrative". Not buying, sorry.

Hey man I understand that everyone is on edge and I won't take your personal attack at face value. AC is negotiating probably the most important collective agreement in Canadian Aviation history right now and the stakes are high. I think we all want a home run. We deserve it. I'm not saying Captains are doing alright and therefore salaries shouldn't be raised. My personal opinion is just that I believe more bargaining capital should be spent raising FO wages to a reasonable level. I shouldn't be making 10k more than a 777 FO as a regional FO on an already low pay scale. It's ridiculous. Every other airline around the world starts at or very close to 100k starting wage (and it should be higher). I would really love to see that brought up.

As for Cathay, their 40-60% pay cut is still very competitive with Canadian salaries (strictly on pay only - everything else in the "contract" is a farce), which is sad. And they don't give away 50% of their wages to tax. Even as a second officer/cruise relief pilot, you're looking at about $120k Canadian for an average of 70 hours a month. They regularly hire 200 hour pilots for that job (I was one of them before Covid), so why are they making double the widebody FO wage at Air Canada, where one needs 2000 hours just to apply?

As for payscales, Emirates doesn't have a 12 point payscale. What you see on the career website is what you get. They get a pay raise about every 3 years in addition to very generous profit sharing. Also keep in mind that they're paying 0% tax. Go into a Canadian income tax calculator and try seeing how much you need to make in Canada to make a take-home wage equivalent to Emirates...

Qantas only has a 4-point payscale for their 787 and narrowbody pilots(I've attached the CBA for your perusal in my post). The rest of the widebody fleet is on a 12-point scale. Not sure why. I tried to keep the fleets all the same as much as possible for the comparison to be more equal.

Let me know if you have any other questions. And yes.. I'm pro increased wages. I have an eye watering amount of student debt to pay off. The longer it takes me to make a decent wage, the longer I'm in debt and unable to save up, invest, buy a house, etc...

Also if anyone has access to other payscales from around the world, please post or PM me and I'll add it. Especially if it's a company that AC executives use for setting their own compensation. Tried finding some European legacy carriers, but that was a little more challenging. BA has a new contract coming into effect and it would be great to see those numbers.

Nolinor captains just received a nice little bump.

https://worldairlinenews.com/2024/04/09 ... ts-pilots/

yowflyer23 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 10:19 am Also if anyone has access to other payscales from around the world, please post or PM me and I'll add it. Especially if it's a company that AC executives use for setting their own compensation. Tried finding some European legacy carriers, but that was a little more challenging. BA has a new contract coming into effect and it would be great to see those numbers.

Thanks for your efforts, some great tables! Here's a source for European carrier pay, but they have others too... it's user submitted info, so it may not be fully accurate, but it can give you a good idea

https://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/

Just browse by region and carrier and the payscales will show up

"I think what's clear is that our senior pilots are doing alright."

Did I misquote?

Sorry folks, I missed my sensitivity training. I'll crack out my Kleenex box.

Just calling a spade a spade. When someone says ..."it's clear that..." usually means they are making a point. I am not in agreement with that point, and I'm allowed to have an opinion about it. When someone says that a subset of Canadian pilots are "Clearly doing alright.......that's a fail. We ALL need an adjustment....it's a collective, and you will ALL be there someday. Canadian wages are in tatters, from the bottom, all the way to the top.

Those who don't like "opinions" can work on getting thicker skin, or maybe not read the forums as much during such a tumultuous time. Now isn't the time for "oversensitivity".

You say it, you wear it, just like I do.


For the record, I'm not here to win a popularity contest. A lot of what I have to say about the state of Canadian aviation isn't very palatable, and I'm not going to try to sweeten it.

No you're calling a spade a "management schill" and, whether or not you agree with his point/opinion, if you actually look at the numbers WB CA rates are a lot closer to the average than the FOs. But, whatever; I agree with you! Lots of improvement to be made here for the collective.

The stuff you say IS actually palatable (unless you're in an airline's finance department) because its what we're all thinking/wanting/saying. You just decided to go after a member of the collective and some of us took issue with that. Now you've decided to play the "everyone is so oversensitive these days" card rather than recognizing a misstep and getting back to working with the collective. Did you miss the part where he said he doesn't have an accurate AC contract? Seems like something you can help with.

I just had an $16000 paycheque turn into $7500 thanks to the criminals in Rottawa. You have to consider that the more you make the more they take. They don’t get taxed anywhere close to that south of the border.

Inverted2 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:11 pm I just had an $16000 paycheque turn into $7500 thanks to the criminals in Rottawa. You have to consider that the more you make the more they take. They don’t get taxed anywhere close to that south of the border.

Sounds like you need to spend 12k usd for an EB-2 visa that won’t materialize.

Better yet, You wanna go fly in the states? Check out EB-5. Invest half a million USD into their programs and you can bring everyone and their family into the USA. I hear delta has better hotels.

CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:14 pm Better yet, You wanna go fly in the states? Check out EB-5. Invest half a million USD into their programs and you can bring everyone and their family into the USA. I hear delta has better hotels.

1.8 million, not half.

Inverted2 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 6:04 am Should keep the Swoop table on as a reminder for future reference that someone whored their selves out for less than 100k/yr to fly a 737.

Agreed, It's perfect for the next low cost carrier to reference so they know just how little pilots will actually work for and to remind the current ones how far they have come. Pilots at all airlines love to quickly forget what the wage scales/work rules were under their old CBA often within 12 months. I know of a few WJ'rs that already think they are getting screwed and are underpaid.

bobcaygeon wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:13 am

Inverted2 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 6:04 am Should keep the Swoop table on as a reminder for future reference that someone whored their selves out for less than 100k/yr to fly a 737.

Agreed, It's perfect for the next low cost carrier to reference so they know just how little pilots will actually work for and to remind the current ones how far they have come. Pilots at all airlines love to quickly forget what the wage scales/work rules were under their old CBA often within 12 months. I know of a few WJ'rs that already think they are getting screwed and are underpaid.

That's how pattern bargaining works. Everyone keeps leapfroging each other, and that pressures the ones who find themselves at the bottom.

bobcaygeon wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:13 am

Inverted2 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 6:04 am Should keep the Swoop table on as a reminder for future reference that someone whored their selves out for less than 100k/yr to fly a 737.

Agreed, It's perfect for the next low cost carrier to reference so they know just how little pilots will actually work for and to remind the current ones how far they have come. Pilots at all airlines love to quickly forget what the wage scales/work rules were under their old CBA often within 12 months. I know of a few WJ'rs that already think they are getting screwed and are underpaid.

Making 3x less than US you're damn right we are getting screwed and are underpaid, even with a brand new contract until the pay will be at least on par with US, not account for currency conversion (so 130k USD, at least 130k CAD). Housing is already more expensive in Canada, same for food and higher taxes.