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Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:47 am
by Norskman
For legalities and CARs definition of spins, I go by this:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/gener ... /spins.htm
Types Of Spins
1. An incipient spin is that portion of a spin from the time the aeroplane stalls and rotation starts, until the spin becomes fully developed. An incipient spin that is not allowed to develop into a fully developed spin is commonly used as an introduction to spin training and spin recovery techniques.
2. A fully developed spin occurs when the aircraft angular rotation rates, airspeed, and vertical speed are stabilized from turn-to-turn in a flight path that is close to vertical.
3. A flat spin is characterized by a near level pitch and roll attitude with the spin axis near the C of G of the aeroplane. Recovery from a flat spin may be extremely difficult and, in some cases, impossible.
So according to TC (the legal definition don't you know
), there are 3 types of spins. Incipient, Fully Developed, and Flat. In any of the cases above, you are doing a spin.
So I would have to disagree with that 180 degree rule. It seemed pretty straight forward to me, though it is quite possible that TC has some other cryptic rule burried in the heap somewhere that contradict this definition.
I would be interested to see what you were looking at to define that 180 degree mark.
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:10 am
by bob sacamano
Lurch wrote:I am not going into a long disscussion on the aerodynamics of a spin. two rotations is just a approximate number for the A/C to proceed into the fully delevelped stage. If you want the whole briefing I'll have to charge you $65 per hour.
As for what you said wrong "what you saw in that "spin" video is the incipient stage of a spin, that was nowhere near a spin."
The spin starts as soon as there is a wing drop during a stall.
Read up on a topic before trying to make a educated response on a training forum. The Flight Training Manual will help you achieve a basic knowledge on how an airplane works. You should be able to purchase it at any flight training unit, while your there talk to an instructor and they should be able to explain it in terms you can understand.
Lurch
$65/hr, that's pretty cheap.
Thanks for the tip about where to find the FTM, but the edition that I have is probably older than you are.
If it helps you pick up chicks at the bar easier by telling them that you spin airplanes, then so be it, even though what you call a spin is just a wing drop.
Look ma, they keep on spinnin' and spinnin', even when I stop, they keep on spinnin'.
At this point in my career, the only spins I deal with are the spinners on my ride.
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:26 am
by Hedley
Recovery from a flat spin may be extremely difficult and, in some cases, impossible.
What nonsense. Whoever wrote that had no knowledge or experience of flat (and probably other) spins. I have performed many, many inverted flat spins and they are as gentle as a cow, and recovery is immediate.
Here's a video of one.
http://www.beasafepilot.com/invertedflatspin.wmv
P.S. There are plenty of other kinds of spins, but as usual, Transport hasn't a clue. What about accelerated spins? Inverted spins? Knife-edge spins? Combinations of the above, such as the inverted/accelerated?
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:30 am
by niss
What nonsense. Whoever wrote that had no knowledge or experience of flat (and probably other) spins.
Nu Uh, Maverick and Goose got into a flat spin, and they had to eject, and goose hit the window and died.......maverick was sad.....
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:32 am
by Hedley
So you're telling me that Transport gets it's spin knowledge from watching Hollywood movies with gay undertones starring short, dyslexic movie stars in dire need of rhinoplasty who are also members of religious cults?
Makes as much sense as anything else I've heard this week
Nu uh
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:04 am
by Degrassi
Well i bet money that if mav and goose were inverted, like in hedleys video, goose wouldnt have hit his head, ANNNND mav and goose would have won the "top gun" top pilot award. Not that retard iceman.
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:13 am
by niss
YOU GUYS ARE DANGEROUS!
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:52 pm
by . ._
Hedley wrote:Recovery from a flat spin may be extremely difficult and, in some cases, impossible.
What nonsense. Whoever wrote that had no knowledge or experience of flat (and probably other) spins. I have performed many, many inverted flat spins and they are as gentle as a cow, and recovery is immediate.
If you're in a flat spin with a super aft C of G, wouldn't that be extremely difficult to recover from, or impossible?
I think I remember reading something like that.
-istp
Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:17 am
by l_reason
istp wrote:
If you're in a flat spin with a super aft C of G, wouldn't that be extremely difficult to recover from, or impossible?
I think I remember reading something like that.
-istp
Istp, if you think about it if you had a “super aft C of G” it would also be quite difficult to taxi (easier with a tail dragger), take off, climb, or slow down enough to do a controlled stall/spin entry. Figure out how to get over the first few obstacles before thinking about an inverted flat spin recovery.
Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:23 pm
by Blue Side Down
istp wrote:Hedley wrote:Recovery from a flat spin may be extremely difficult and, in some cases, impossible.
What nonsense. Whoever wrote that had no knowledge or experience of flat (and probably other) spins. I have performed many, many inverted flat spins and they are as gentle as a cow, and recovery is immediate.
If you're in a flat spin with a super aft C of G, wouldn't that be extremely difficult to recover from, or impossible?
I think I remember reading something like that.
-istp
There have been a number of spin in accidents over the years that were likely caused by an out of balance, aft C of G. I recall a recent final report on an S1S that 'didn't recover in time' after the pilot placed dive weights behind their seat to move the plane's C of G aft (reasoning as I recall was to help the plane spin nicer... ironically enough). I think that there's no doubt that CofG location has a significant influence on a plane's spin characteristics.
I think I've heard that the Tomahawk will do the same thing to you too, actually... load it up with an aft CG and it'll take you round and round all the way down.
Advanced spins in general are not overly exciting when done right and properly planned; but they can be something that requires a little more respect and judgement.
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:06 am
by Norskman
I inquired to Cessna as to why that backseat limitiation is there. This is the reply:
172's are wonderful airplanes and have spectacular spin characteristics but they are airplanes. Spins are only allowed in the Utility category and in the case of the S' models it is difficult to keep the weight and CG were it needs to be with two pilots and fuel. The further aft you load the plane the further the arm of that weight becomes and the more leverage it has in shifting the aircrafts CG aft. Even a seemingly light weight in the tailcone has a long moment arm (leverage) and significant consequences. An aft CG in any aircraft (out of the envelope) can make an airplane unrecoverable from a spin. When you loose the ability to get the airplanes nose down, you loose the ability to recover from the spin. ... Just be sure to follow the precautions and stay within the aircrafts limits and it will perform as expected every time.